Story 74: Pandora Should Get to Punch Hesiod (with Quinn Albert)

Written By Darien Smartt

“Hesiod definitely didn’t have a problem with women.”

Pandora gets blamed for everything. Literally, Hesiod decided the first human woman is responsible for every bad thing in the world. Quinn Albert (she/her) joins the podcast to discuss the terrifying implications of stories that blame women for the suffering of men. Also, charm bracelets!

Topics include Hesiod’s account from the worst side of TikTok, Hermes’ incredible epitaph, justice for the goddess Pandora, the insidious plot to erase or depower the most ancient goddesses, the chaos one unleashes when they gift a charm bracelet, and a re-evaluation of the most famous “mistranslation” in Western literature.

Spoilers for Borderlands, Doctor Who, Once Upon a Time, Danny Phantom, Halo, and DC Comics: Rebirth

Content Warning: This episode contains mentions of and conversations about animal sacrifice, imprisonment, sexism, misogyny, violence against women, sexual assault, and forced marriage. 

About Us

Muses of Mythology was created and co-hosted by Darien and DJ Smartt.

Our music is Athens Festival by Martin Haene. Our cover art is by Audrey Miller. Find her on Instagram @bombshellnutshellart

Love the podcast? Support us on Patreon and get instant access to bloopers, outtakes, and bonus episodes! Patreon.com/musesofmythology

You can also leave us a 5-star rating and review on your favorite podcatcher at Lovethepodcast.com/musesofmythology

Find us @MusesOfMyth on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. Find all of our episodes and episode transcripts at MusesOfMythology.com

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TRANSCRIPT

Darien (00:02.57)

Welcome to Muse of Mythology, a podcast where we explore how ancient myths become part of modern pop culture through the lens of Rick Riordan's Percy Jackson and the Olympians series. This is Story 74, Pandora. I'm your co-host and podcasting muse, Darien Smart. Joining me is my co-host and brother, DJ.


DJ (00:18.029)

How's everybody doing today? I am the muse of storage. Wherever you need it, I got it.


Darien (00:24.746)

Are you the muse of creating space for storage or putting things into storage?


DJ (00:29.637)

Just storage, whatever you need it for, it's there. Whether it be computer or closet or like $100 a month, I got it, you want it.


Darien (00:40.531)

I will, you know, I think there's a garden shed that we should take a look at, so let's muse around there for a moment.


DJ (00:45.881)

Alright.


Darien (00:48.674)

Sure.


DJ, today we are joined by a fabulous returning guest. We love her so much. She is an embroider, she is an embroidery extraordinaire and the cohost of the Monstrous Woman podcast. It's Quinn!


DJ (00:56.761)

That we do.


Quinn (01:03.911)

Hello, I'm so excited to be back.


Darien (01:07.372)

Yes, welcome back, Quinn.


Quinn (01:10.767)

It's been so long. Like, I honestly can't even... Like, I know I've been here. I can't remember what we talked about, but I've been here before.


Darien (01:14.838)

Yeah.


Darien (01:19.634)

I can tell you, let me just check the actual episodes on the podcatcher. Let's just look up Quinn.

Well, Quinn, you joined us for our Ariadne episode, which, oh my gosh, did come out a year ago. So, it has been about a year since we had you on. Welcome back.


Quinn (02:21.351)

Wow. Yeah.


DJ (02:24.1)

Hehehehehe


Quinn (02:30.279)

Thank you. I missed being here.


Darien (02:32.547)

Yay. So today we are talking about Pandora. So Quinn, tell us, why did you want to be a part of this episode? What's your vibes with Pandora?


Quinn (02:42.539)

Um, I think it was the first music service that I actually listened to, like online streaming music service. But so strangely that's like always the first thing that pops in my mind whenever I hear-


Darien (02:48.728)

Yeah, okay!


DJ (02:49.365)

I'm sure it was like everyone's.


Darien (02:53.127)

Mm-hmm.


Quinn (02:53.487)

Pandora. But honestly, I feel like it's just a great myth. It's sort of, it comes up a lot, unfortunately, in, I think, everyday life of just sort of like curiosity. I don't know. I feel like there's a lot of interesting things to talk about with the whole story of, oh, woman is like curious and destroys world, and then is like, then an entire gender is then


Darien (03:22.811)

vilified? Yeah.


Quinn (03:23.521)

for eternity. So I think it's very interesting and a lot to talk about, so I'm excited to be here.


Darien (03:30.155)

Absolutely, yeah. No, it's definitely... It's definitely an archetype you could say. It's a trope, if you will.


Quinn (03:36.647)

Yes, yes.


Darien (03:39.911)

Let's get started then. DJ, what's the deal with Pandora in the Percy Jackson books?


DJ (03:46.149)

Uh, well, we don't actually see Pandora. We see Pandora's Pythus, which is like a jar. And it's got hope in it. And it's given to Percy by Prometheus saying, hey, open it up whenever you want. And I'll be there. And I'll know that you have given up hope. And you want to surrender. Percy doesn't like this burden.


Darien (03:50.287)

Mm-hmm.


Darien (04:12.181)

Nope.


DJ (04:13.033)

uh... and he realizes that is where home and heart this so he gives it to past and has he is very proud of that


Darien (04:18.589)

Yeah.


Quinn (04:22.291)

it's all summed up like that, it's very cheesy, but it's also like...


Darien (04:22.311)

Bye.


DJ (04:25.231)

Yeah, right.


Darien (04:26.475)

No, it's, no, it is, it is, yeah, it's the, can we hit the symbolism on the head any harder, Rick? But, let's do it again. I would almost love to get a little tattoo of calcifer from Howl's Moving Castle, and it said, like, you know, hope burns brightest at the hearth. Like, that would be super charming, actually. But, yeah, so, yeah, so yeah, Prometheus is the one that brings it up and is literally like, yeah, this will be your white flag when you surrender.


Quinn (04:34.277)

I'm sorry.


DJ (04:35.381)

We absolutely can.


Quinn (04:37.395)

I'm gonna go to bed.


DJ (04:46.68)

Uh-huh.


Quinn (04:46.828)

Aw.


Quinn (04:51.185)

Yeah.


Darien (04:55.919)

But it does show up before he, Percy, gives it to Hestia, wherein he discovers his folks are unconscious in a car right next to the Empire State Building. And it is like the most, like, Annabeth has been injured, there's his mother, and Paul just...


Quinn (05:20.367)

All hope is lost.


Darien (05:21.591)

Yeah, all is the closest he does to giving, Percy is to giving up hope, and he finds that in the car there is the pithos. And he's like, I definitely didn't leave that there. So I like that symbolism too of, just this really is the lowest emotional point for Percy. Seeing his mom so helpless and he can do nothing for her. And then Rachel almost opens it.


DJ (05:22.445)

Mm-hmm.


DJ (05:47.269)

Mm-hmm.


DJ (05:50.947)

Yeah.


Darien (05:51.579)

When they're up in Olympus, she's holding onto it and gets like kinda dreamy. And he's like, nope, mm-mm, give it back.


Darien (06:02.151)

Trying to f-


Quinn (06:02.403)

I like how it's depicted as being tempting.


Darien (06:06.383)

Yeah, the idea would be so easy to give up hope and not have to fight anymore.


Quinn (06:11.055)

Mm-hmm Like I feel like the first time I read it I was a little confused and I was like no what is it like oh, they'll open it up and everything This would be better and then it's like spelled out a bit more of just like no that's like you're giving up Hope it's like oh


Darien (06:25.602)

Mm-hmm.


DJ (06:26.446)

Yeah.


Darien (06:28.503)

Yeah. And I think I talked about this during our Hestia episode, but I love that giving Hestia the Pythos with hope in it is like an offering to the goddess to continue like, because that's what it is. You don't just give presents to gods for no reasons, they're offerings. And so in giving hope to Hestia, like Percy says, it's like, oh, hope thrives at the hearth, but Hestia's whole thing is protecting the hearth and home.


DJ (06:41.539)

Mm-hmm.


Darien (06:58.019)

So essentially, Percy is giving an offering to the goddess to please help me protect my home. And she does! When they battle Cronos, like she, when his scythe falls in the fire, she makes it too hot for him to grab again. Like that offering pays off and I love it.


Quinn (07:14.587)

I love Hestia. She's such like, she's a sneaky badass.


Darien (07:18.471)

And she truly is.


DJ (07:18.626)

Yeah.


Darien (07:22.831)

And that's all we got for Pandora in the Percy Jackson. But let.


Quinn (07:29.511)

Does she appear in like any other Rick Riordan? Like I honestly have only rea- Like I've read the Heroes of Olympus series, but I have reread the Percy Jackson series like multiple times. So I feel like I know that one a lot better than anything beyond. So does she show up anywhere else?


Darien (07:37.232)

Mm-hmm.


Darien (07:42.247)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.


Darien (07:49.435)

So my gut instinct is no, I don't believe so, but I also said that about Pacifay at one point in time and was very wrong. So I could be incorrect. I don't think so, but.


Quinn (08:00.868)

how it goes.


Quinn (08:05.742)

Alright, I'll go with your gut.


Darien (08:09.379)

So our primary, well basically the original source for the Pandora story comes from Hesiod. We talked a lot about Hesiod and his theogony and works and days in our last episode of Prometheus. Here we are again.


Cuz it's not


Because this is like, Pandora, later writers would come in and she'd appear in plays and art and stuff, but there aren't other things that added more to the myth of Pandora that are iconic or tree-shaped how she was viewed over time. Basically what Hesiod outlined is who Pandora was in this era, period, full stop.


DJ (09:03.366)

Mm-hmm.


Darien (09:05.327)

So it starts with the end of humanity's golden age, when Prometheus tricked the gods.


So in the theogony, what's interesting is that Pandora is not named, nor does her jar appear. So you have, Prometheus has just tricked the gods, like tricked Zeus with the offering, like tricking him into picking the worst offering for the humans to give the gods, and the humans get to keep the good meat for themselves. And then when Zeus took fire away, Prometheus gave it back. So now Zeus is explicitly pissed off. So.


DJ (09:45.765)

Mm-hmm.


Darien (09:53.123)

As a trade for the fire, Zeus devised a wicked suffering for mankind. The renowned broken-footed Smith molded earth into the shape of a virginal girl, cheeks blushing modestly, according to the plan of Cronos' son. The old eyed goddess Athena was in charge of her clothing and adornment. So she decks her out and then they send her to earth. The woman was Zeus' trick, a beautiful evil in returning, in return for something good.


This... yeah. The species of female women originated with her, and she was the start of a whole destructive race, this terrible plague for mankind. They squat within the homes of mortal men, unbearable in poverty, barely tolerable in plenty. Just like bees within their domed homes work to feed the drones where they go, hard work follows.


Quinn (10:23.443)

lovely.


Quinn (10:46.995)

So Hesiod definitely liked women.


Darien (10:51.143)

That's basically the conclusion we're gonna, yeah, we'll just jump to the end there. Yeah, Hesiod definitely didn't have a problem with women. He even outlines, listen, option one, let's say someone manages to avoid marriage, women and all those anxieties. Disaster then comes in old age since he chose not to marry. Who takes care of him at his life end? And even if his needs are met in life, well then after death, there are no children to carry on his legacy. His hard work profits only distant relatives.


Quinn (10:53.56)

I'm sorry.


Quinn (10:57.625)

Yeah.


Darien (11:19.339)

Option two, let's say someone chooses the fate of marriage. Either he manages to find a wife he can trust, their hearts perfectly matched, but still lives in fear that this comfort will one day give way to suffering. Or he marries an abusive type, a troublemaker, that source of chetch clutching anxiety for the rest of his life. Headache and heartache too. Trust me, this suffering is uncurable. The moral, you cannot deceive or outwit the mind of Zeus.


Quinn (11:48.771)

Oh my, it just, it feels like it could have been written yesterday.


DJ (11:50.755)

Friends.


Darien (11:52.551)

Right? Like you hear some alpha?


DJ (11:54.47)

It's so just based in Redpilled, dude. Like, come on. Ha ha ha.


Quinn (11:57.459)

Hahaha


Darien (11:57.731)

Yeah, that's exactly it! Thank you, DJ! You ended up on the bad side of TikTok.


Mm-hmm.


Quinn (12:08.267)

It like, it hurts. It hurts that it's been thought and spoken for so many years. And so blatantly.


DJ (12:14.298)

Hehehehehehe


Darien (12:14.595)

Mm-hmm. So blatantly, like no beating around, it is explicitly, maybe you find a nice lady, but you'll always live in fear that she'll turn out to be a bitch.


Quinn (12:26.935)

And if you don't have children, you'll die alone. Like.


Darien (12:30.191)

And all your money will profit someone else. So, you know, women are only suffering.


DJ (12:33.293)

somebody you don't care about.


Quinn (12:36.316)

Oh my god.


Darien (12:39.749)

Mm-hmm. So this golden age of men that apparently the coming of women ended, you asked last week in the Prometheus episode, wait, hold on. So how were there people if there were no human women? And the answer is, well, actually, the golden age of humanity was a time of just immortal dudes.


DJ (13:02.597)

outstanding. Truly.


Darien (13:03.535)

Just dudes. Just, yup, just a bunch of immortal men who didn't have to work hard because they had everything they needed and it was fine. And then, well, Prometheus just screwed them all over by pissing off Zeus and it's all his fault. And now we have to have women who ruin everything.


Quinn (13:22.619)

I don't know. It's sort of, it's very reminiscent to...


DJ (13:25.069)

Now we have to have women to ruin our orgies, bro. This sucks. Ha ha ha.


Quinn (13:32.547)

It reminds me of the, like, Adam and Eve story. It's like, alright, there was no woman before Eve came up. Or, well, there was. There was Lilith. Don't get me started on Lilith. Ha ha ha.


Darien (13:36.054)

Mm-hmm.


Darien (13:43.087)

Don't get me started on Lilith! Ugh, my girl!


DJ (13:45.113)

Hehehe


Quinn (13:46.723)

Yeah, um, but so it's like, oh yeah, but I think it's just interesting that it's like, okay, yeah, Prometheus made this mistake and now they're cursed with woman and in like the Christian like mythology, whatever, theology. This is theology, yeah, theology. Yeah, in Christian theology that Adam basically asked for Eve and then Eve, so I don't know, it's just sort of interesting.


Darien (13:56.295)

Mm-hmm.


DJ (14:02.317)

Mythos.


Darien (14:02.352)

Mm-hmm.


Yeah, yeah, yeah.


DJ (14:15.073)

He's like, hey man, I'm lonely. Can you make someone? Yeah, all right.


Quinn (14:16.756)

Exactly.


Darien (14:17.647)

Like all the animals have a companion I want someone to hang out with. And God's like, got you man. Oh, but you know, she listened to the devil. Yeah. No, for real, for real. Yep. Well, definitely. Mm-hmm. And so what's funny is it's like, this idea that like, oh, women were created in Pandora and now we have this stuff. Except like how and why, because it's not like she married a dude. She married a, a pet.


Quinn (14:21.069)

Yeah.


DJ (14:26.233)

She's a little curious.


Quinn (14:29.19)

She ate an apple, the thing that it was sort of meant to do.


Darien (14:47.907)

Epimetheus, who was Prometheus's brother, first brought suffering to working men when he accepted the gift, Zeus's woman, molded in the form of a young virgin.


Quinn (15:03.635)

Yeah. Maybe, maybe she inspired... what's his brother's name? Epithesith? Uh, maybe he... she inspired, um, him to mold more figures after... Does, does he have the same power of, like, making clay people? No? Okay. Never mind.


Darien (15:10.403)

Yeah, yeah, that guy.


Darien (15:23.031)

No, no, that's not really what he does. And it's funny, it's like this frame, like, oh, Prometheus made a mistake and we were all punished. But when you look at what the mistake was, it was like, one, making sure humans got to keep the nourishment of the animals that they killed. And two, making sure they had culture and knowledge and creativity and things. We covered this in Prometheus' episode. This is all about Pandora.


Quinn (15:46.544)

Yeah.


Quinn (15:50.291)

I- you gotta like Prometheus, nothing's wrong with him. Including Pandora!


DJ (15:53.325)

Mm. Hehehehe.


Darien (15:55.988)

Yeah, it's not his fault. He even warns his brother, don't accept any gifts from Zeus. And his brother's like, but she's so pretty. Yeah, yeah. But she's so young and virginal.


DJ (16:04.865)

But she's hot, bro, look at her. Look at her, bro, please.


Quinn (16:06.72)

Hahaha


Quinn (16:11.718)

I've never even seen a woman before, but I know a virgin when I see it.


Darien (16:14.381)

No, okay.


Here's the thing, it's often she is cited as, oh, a young Pandora is the first woman.


I am reading through the, that was from the Theogony. And what we'll read next is from the works in days where we actually like get her name and then this dreaded Pythos is present. Like this is where we get the full extent of the Pandora story. And it's perplexing because.


Darien (16:49.416)

It doesn't seem to say she's the first. Well, okay, I guess Pandora is where the race of women all come from, so yes, she is the first.


Yeah, the species of female women originated from her. But like, what are goddesses then? I guess not women, they're goddesses, yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. So she isn't given a name, and she doesn't arrive on Earth at her famous jar in the theogony. But in this piece, Hesioda, she's like, women are suffering. Like, not women are suffering, women are, they are.


DJ (17:06.349)

They're goddesses. Yeah, yeah. The women is human. Like.


Quinn (17:10.37)

Hahahaha


Quinn (17:25.575)

But they suffering with a capital S.


Darien (17:28.363)

Yes, they are suffering. He doesn't care about how women feel about anything.


DJ (17:32.889)

That's so funny.


Darien (17:34.251)

Yeah, in works and days, he elaborates, at least by giving her a name, which I guess, thank you, but also just really double tripling down on that, not only is being with a woman suffering, but they're actually responsible for all the suffering you deal with no matter what. So.


DJ (17:51.469)

Death, disease, that's all her fault.


Darien (17:53.975)

Yeah, yes, it absolutely is. So, ha ha. So in works and days, we still have Hephaestus, you know, making Pandora. We have Athena, like, you know, giving her all of the adornments or, and then she teaches her to craft and weave careful art upon the loom. To gold adorned Aphrodite, anoint her with allure.


DJ (17:57.037)

Go back to the gym, bro. Keep lifting it out. It's all her fault.


Darien (18:23.259)

body devouring longing and powerful need. To Hermes, watchdog, slayer and guide, he commanded, install a bitch's mind in a criminal's heart. And they all obeyed the commands of Cronus' son, King Zeus. And the renowned broken foot god swiftly molded from earth the shape of a virginal girl, cheeks blushing with modesty according to, this just reiterating, that they do as they were told.


Darien (18:52.023)

Last of all, the God's messenger placed a voice in her and announced her name, Pandora, because all the Olympians' gods gave her gifts, though she would be a plague for laboring men. Finally, when he'd completed his inescapable trap, irresistible to men, Father Zeus sent out Hermes, the watchdog slayer. I love this epithet for Hermes, by the way. The watchdog slayer? Very into it. To Epiphymethus.


DJ (19:16.933)

Thanks for watching!


Darien (19:19.847)

The Swift Messenger God bought the gifts bruh- 


Yeah, so he brings Pandora to Prometheus' brother, who forgets the warning Prometheus gave him. Oh- Yes.


Quinn (19:34.171)

Before you go that far, I, like, scanning through this, and I need to highlight this one line, it's, um, Uh, to Hermes, watchdog, slayer, and guide, he commanded, install a bitch's mind and a criminal's heart. Like, did you say that? I might have just, like, spaced out because I was reading it. Like, ew!


Darien (19:39.611)

place.


Darien (19:46.759)

Mm-hmm. Yes, I wanted us to circle back. I did.


DJ (19:50.681)

Hehehehehehe


Darien (19:52.643)

No, I was like, I like to pause and I'm like, no comment on that, we'll move forward, it's fine. Yeah.


Quinn (19:56.955)

Ha ha ha!


Yeah, it was because I was reading it and going, oh my God, is she gonna say that? Oh! Ha ha ha!


Darien (20:04.103)

And I did. And when the story goes through and they really detail what the gods are giving her and doing for her, it says, "'But in her breast, Hermes the guide, watchdog slayer, "'installed a tricky lying tongue and a criminal's heart.'" Regardless. Mm-hmm.


Quinn (20:21.659)

That's so wild. But yeah, I don't know. All of the gifts.


DJ (20:25.377)

Finally tuned to make just cloud men's judgment and just they only see the body.


Darien (20:30.991)

Yes, that's exactly the idea. So, only after Epimephys accepted the gift, after he held suffering in his arms, did he understand. Before, all men across the earth used to prosper, free from suffering, hard work, and painful disease. For men, these are death-bringers, because those who weather these evils become old before their time.


The woman removed the heavy jar with her hands and driven by her own thoughts, unleashed sorrows for men, death bringers. Hope alone remained in its unbreakable home, caught underneath the lip of the jar. Its escape was only a short flight away, but just in time, she slammed the lid down, all according to the plan of Aegis baring cloud gathering Zeus. Now, 10,000 or more sorrows roam free among all mankind.


Suffering is inescapable on land and sea. Woe, worse, disease stalk human beings day and night, spreading everywhere out of control. For men, they bring wails of grief, silence since their divine voice was removed by the cunningly wise Zeus, the immoral. In the end, there is no way to evade the mind of Zeus.


So we're like really blaming Pandora and all of women for literally every bad thing, but also just saying, but you know, you just can't get away from Zeus. What he wants is what's gonna happen. You just gotta accept it, but fuck women.


Quinn (21:52.975)

Yeah.


DJ (22:04.855)

Yes, so...


Quinn (22:07.023)

It really is, like even just like men experience this grief, not like humans, not like mankind or anything like that, just men. Like women are...


Darien (22:14.339)

Yeah.


DJ (22:15.345)

It's... this only sounds like the shit came up from... Oh man, I just got my heart broken by a woman. They're all dog shit! Fuck them! They all have the brains of bitches and the hearts of criminals!


Darien (22:30.471)

really underlined that like, oh this is old. This has been going on forever and the fact that it


obvious. And it's like, yes, we could say like, Oh, well, this was just the society. This was the culture of the time. Like, it's very patriarchal. Women didn't have rights. Yeah, okay, fine. Women were viewed as property. But it feels very intense to also say, but my property is the reason I suffer.


Quinn (23:05.517)

Yeah.


Darien (23:06.615)

And it feels like it goes above. And it also, I feel like I have to like really like acknowledge and reflect on the fact that we rely on Hesiod's theogony and so much, like this is the source of where a lot of the stories we talk about are really built on. And it feels almost irresponsible to discuss that without also like outwardly acknowledging and really reflecting on the fact that every story has this threaded into it.


this absolute deep hatred and resentment of women, of the feminine. And it is, it's like when you study philosophy and I talk about all the like advanced thoughts of Aristotle and then let's just leave out the fact that he also explicitly hated women.


Like these things need to be addressed because you have to acknowledge that these ideas of like heroism and valor or equality in men and thought like, but that doesn't count to women. They are nothing and actually we hate them aggressively. And then the violence that comes from that mindset of that not just the culture of my property but the thought of you are the reason that bad things happen to me. And that's terrifying.


DJ (24:24.357)

Super rough.


Quinn (24:25.603)

It really is.


Darien (24:28.879)

That got heavy.


Quinn (24:29.712)

It's like, I don't even know if you even strip that away from this story, what do you have? It's, it disappears. Like it doesn't, it's not a thing. If you disappear, if you strip away Hesiod's clear hatred of women, this does not become a story. This does not become a myth.


Darien (24:40.122)

Yeah.


Darien (24:45.231)

Yeah, like it's...


No, exactly. Yes, exactly. And, and it, oh, this next part, I will super acknowledge is like really conjecture, mostly theoretical, not a lot to go off of, but like I said, this version of Pandora is some of the oldest stuff we have. But while I was reading the poem and how they say like, oh, Pandora, her name is Pandora because it means all gifts.


pan meaning all. That's something we've talked about is how pan meaning all is like a folk etymology of the ancient time because the god pan, his name doesn't necessarily come from meaning, does not mean all actually. It's believed to like Rick Riordan says it means rustic, but it could also mean,


DJ (25:43.897)

kitchen utensils.


Darien (25:45.623)

Oh, TJ. Rustic, it's like the Indo-European etymology actually digging to that. It could mean rustic, pasture, or companion. So you get the idea that like, wait, so Pandora, if you have this name, it might not actually mean all gifts. It may mean something else, which is also interesting when you consider the fact that there was a Earth goddess called Pandora in the early Greek.


Quinn (25:46.296)

I'm done.


Darien (26:15.335)

Pantheon we don't have much about. That was something when I was researching, one website noted there was an unrelated goddess, earth goddess of the early Pantheon. And then this same piece mentioned how in artwork, like sometimes Pandora is depicted as emerging from the ground. And this website said that symbolizes her origin from clay. And to me, it sounded a little bit more like, wouldn't that symbolize an earth goddess?


Quinn (26:44.534)

Yeah.


Darien (26:46.155)

a giving earth goddess, almost. And so digging in more, I found some scholars believe that this Pandora of Hesiod is a almost, I would say like a corrupted version of an earth goddess Pandora.


Quinn (27:08.283)

That's wild and honestly like not surprising. I could easily see that happening.


DJ (27:14.263)

I'd buy it.


Darien (27:16.007)

Mm-hmm. And.


Quinn (27:18.403)

It, yeah, it's like, alright, there's two versions of, I don't know, I can only think of Black Widow right now, and that's not a good example. I don't know.


Darien (27:23.171)

Yeah, and that sounds like...


DJ (27:27.565)

Hehehehe


Darien (27:29.295)

No, but yeah, I mean, that could be. It could just be a totally unrelated Earth goddess. But M.L. West wrote on this topic, and he noted that in, like, there is likely a, it's a pre-heseotic myth, and in the catalog of women, which was an ancient thing, which preserved an older tradition, mentions Pandora. She's married to Prometheus then, and her jar may have contained good things for humanity.


You have this earth goddess who gave humanity so many good things, married to Prometheus, who gave humanity so many good things and, and helped them from a God, Zeus, who we've noted wanted to destroy all of humanity.


Quinn (28:18.844)

It's just like it's back to Zeus being just such a wonderful person. Um


DJ (28:23.101)

This just sucks. It's a classic.


Darien (28:24.343)

Yeah. So it concludes that.


Basically, the idea is that it might be an almalgam of a lot of earlier myths that Hesiod is pulling together with a very specific feeling about women in mind. There's another name for Pandora was Anisadora, which means she who sends up gifts. And it is written above her in a Greek painting,


Anisidora was often a very common epithet applied to Gaia or Demeter.


Darien (29:08.091)

So William E. Phillips, another scholar.


Quinn (29:09.875)

It's so hard to say anything for sure at that time.


Darien (29:13.483)

No, for real, like we don't, we're all playing conjecture, but I just thought this one was really interesting because it's the idea that Hesiod reversed the meaning of an earth goddess called Pandora. And vase and literary texts give evidence of a Pandora who was a mother earth figure worshipped by the Greeks.


Quinn (29:24.624)

Mm-hmm.


Quinn (29:32.731)

This like really is like, I don't know. I remember something I wanna say like.


Mesopotamia or something like that. Like basically like how Greek myths evolved into Roman myth is similar. Something similar happened with Mesopotamian myths to Greek myths. It's been like literally years since I've actually like dug into that. But I really, I feel like there were more or it is believed that there were more


Darien (29:41.948)

Mm-hmm.


Darien (29:48.583)

Mm-hmm.


Quinn (30:09.513)

in that mythology and that. So I'd, I feel, again this is all like me half remembering a like one hour lecture from two years ago minimum.


Darien (30:11.399)

Mm-hmm.


Darien (30:19.36)

Oh please, yeah!


Darien (30:23.707)

Ha ha


Quinn (30:25.588)

But I feel like something about like a number of different like sort of women, female gods basically evolved into much weaker forms of themselves in later theologies.


Darien (30:39.78)

Yeah.


Quinn (30:45.443)

But I have nothing to base that on, but it really feels like something that is definitely possible. And especially since reading how much Hesiod just clearly hated women, it just seems like something that someone with those sort of feelings in them might just take upon themselves to do.


Darien (30:51.663)

Yeah, absolutely.


Darien (30:56.591)

Mm-hmm.


Darien (31:05.955)

Yeah, exactly. I think Thetis is another example of a goddess who became a much lesser version of herself. Yes, because she was a full on, this is something that I've learned from talking to Megs, but Thetis was like a full on ocean goddess, like a very widely worshiped, viewed as extremely powerful, culturally important ocean goddess.


Quinn (31:13.648)

Yes, that's what it was. Ha ha ha.


DJ (31:16.941)

I'm sorry.


Quinn (31:25.278)

Mm-hmm.


Darien (31:33.587)

and to undermine her authority and her cults. You suddenly had stories that just made her less and less and less, and then all of a sudden she's just Achilles' mother. And you get the thing, like, but she's someone that saved Zeus and also has his, like, is she can persuade him to do things. Like, she has a clear amount of, like, authority and sway, so how could she be someone who's not important?


because it was stripped away. And I get the vibe that could very easily been something that we saw with Pandora, who we had a much more ancient, prominent Earth goddess who was sided with giving humanity all of these good things with her husband Prometheus. And you have a society that is becoming increasingly more like patriarchal and that's-


And patriarchal just means like ruled by the father. And it does not inherently have to be this thing that causes harm. Unfortunately, the men who ended up becoming rulers in a patriarchal system tend to wanna cause harm. So that's a bummer for you all. It's cough, Zeus, exactly. So all of a sudden, like literally we talked about earlier, like the myth is like very much wants us to blame women for suffering, women are the problem, women suck. Hey, Zeus is the one who.


Quinn (32:40.839)

Kafka Zeus.


DJ (32:55.289)

Zeus made them.


Darien (32:56.575)

Zeus did this, but we blame Pandora, not Zeus. So you have a society that is.


Quinn (32:56.833)

Yeah.


Quinn (33:02.515)

Zeus first made Pandora, then he made the box and put all the stuff in the box and had Pandora open it so that he could blame Pandora.


Darien (33:09.127)

Mm-hmm.


Darien (33:13.827)

Yeah, and it's exactly that. So you have as a society, as a culture, is becoming increasingly more resentful and hatred of women and their role in the community is becoming lesser and lesser and more contained. You see goddesses and their virtue and authority becoming cut down. Unless the goddess is completely beholden to the father, to a man, to Athena.


to Zeus, to the other goddesses who are virginal goddesses. So they get to run off and do things, but they aren't.


We've talked about this before, but that's, that's... If I was gonna sit down and do a whole paper about Pandora, that is what my argument would be. I would dive into text. My argument would be Pandora was an earth goddess who gave humanity wonderful gifts, and a misogynistic man came up and wrote some stupid poem saying, nah, she sucked, actually.


Quinn (34:15.419)

And then the way documents and histories are preserved, things, yes. It really hurts to just think about how long this has just been around. But like, oh, I had something before and I fully lost it because I just like, I don't know, this whole story is just so negative.


Darien (34:17.447)

Mm-hmm. And this has just been it.


Darien (34:41.856)

Mm-hmm. Do we want to talk about hope for a little bit? Do we want to bring it up? Oh.


Quinn (34:45.491)

Oh, that's what it was! Never mind. Okay, I brought it back. Okay, so, okay, so the whole thing is Zeus gives Pandora this jar full of this evil stuff, including hope. So all of that had to be out of the jar at some point. So did he, how did it get, I don't know. It just like gives me a vibe of like, no, that was out of the jar for the entire time. Now we just have an excuse. But yeah, sorry. I said that way too fast.


Darien (34:57.639)

Mm-hmm.


Darien (35:14.519)

No, you're good. I followed. But yeah, it's like they created or put all the spirits in there. But yeah, I want to talk about hope. And now the spirit specifically, hope is Apless, who's the spirit of hope. She's usually depicted as a young woman carrying flowers or cornucopia, which is delightful.


Quinn (35:15.445)

I'm sorry.


Quinn (35:34.871)

I love a cornucopia. Tis the season.


Darien (35:36.623)

Mm-hmm. So exactly why Epilus remained in the jar was like a subject of debate among ancient scholars. They were all like, why didn't hope leave the jar? And simultaneously, why was hope in the jar in the first place if it was only full of terrible things? And I looked around, and I found an article written by a W.J. Verdenius.


DJ (35:45.985)

Hehehehehehe


Darien (36:05.959)

called A Hopeless Line in Hesiod. And this was published in Mnemosyne, a Journal of Classic Studies. And I would have loved to have read this whole article because it looked really interesting, and I really wanted to dig in more of it. But of course, I can't access anything more than the preview.


Quinn (36:30.912)

Mm-hmm


DJ (36:31.16)

Oh no.


Darien (36:55.107)

And I can't afford, nevermind that this particular journal was published in the 70s, I still can't access what was written here and nor can I afford to fork over the money to do so and I no longer have my school account because it's been a year. So.


Quinn (37:11.067)

Gotta love how academic journals and academic papers are basically written for the public knowledge, and then it's extremely limited people who can actually read it. Yeah.


Darien (37:20.535)

Yes, it's just... Mm-hmm. Yeah, so, but I did get to read the preview, which included the first page. So, as Verdenius wrote, on the topic of scholars debating why was hope there, they may be divided into two classes according as they presume that the jar served as one, to keep Epilus for man, or two, to keep Epilus off from man, to keep off Epilus from man.


DJ (37:21.957)

It's insane. It's just crazy to me.


Darien (37:48.611)

In the first case, the jar is used as a pantry. The second case, it's used as a prison. Furthermore, Epilis may be regarded as either a good or an evil. In the last case, it is to comfort man in his misery and a stimulus rousing his activity. In the second case, wait, that's not the right way. Okay, he says the last case, but meaning if it's good, it means it's to comfort man in misery and like rouse him to continue action.


And if it's the latter, it is the idle hope in which a lazy man indulges when he should be working honestly for his living. The combinations of these alternatives result in four possibility, which we now briefly consider. Okay, well, I'm gonna cut that last line because I couldn't consider that because I couldn't read any more of it. But the debate was like, okay, what is the jar actually for? What is hope actually for? And it does this poetic line of like, hope is a companion to misery. But like...


DJ (38:29.undefined)

Hehehe


Quinn (38:29.102)

Hahaha


Darien (38:43.895)

when things are miserable, all that exists is hope. And is that a good thing to keep you moving forward to make you not let go in the hard times? Or is it something that makes someone less likely to strive forward? Will they just be satisfied and hope no matter how bad things get?


Quinn (38:47.122)

Yeah.


DJ (38:47.339)

Yeah.


Quinn (39:01.135)

I feel like that's a common theme in a lot of war movies and stuff. Like, is it good to have hope? Will it keep you carrying on? Or...


DJ (39:01.321)

It actually...


Darien (39:05.122)

Mm-hmm.


DJ (39:05.945)

Yeah, there's a...


DJ (39:11.617)

Now this is entirely an internet thing that I saw, so take this with a huge grain of salt. It was a guy who had said he survived as a prisoner of war and the people who broke first were the people with the most hope.


Darien (39:17.26)

Okay?


Darien (39:31.505)

Mmm.


DJ (39:32.921)

They were the ones who broke first and like the hardest. When they realized no one's coming, it's been like a year, right? Or maybe like six months or whatever.


Quinn (39:35.954)

Yeah.


Darien (39:44.539)

Well, it's just like they broke because they lost hope. But how would you? Yeah.


DJ (39:47.745)

Yeah, but like they had so much of it at first that they fell even harder rather than the ones that were sitting there like, I just gotta get through the next day.


Quinn (39:55.138)

Yeah.


Darien (39:55.511)

Yeah, but would you argue, so you have, I guess, because hope could be both if you have an overinflated sense of hope. That's not hope, that's delusion. That's not being realistic about your situation. So would it be possible to be realistic about the hardships of your situation and still maintain a sense of hope that, because it's like, I just gotta get through the next day. Well, why would you even bother if you didn't think the next day could be better than this one?


Quinn (40:21.539)

Yeah, hope is a complicated thing. That's why there's many, many myths about it.


Darien (40:24.548)

Mm-hmm.


DJ (40:24.965)

Fairly.


Darien (40:27.723)

Yeah. What is it? Hope is a thing with feathers.


Quinn (40:32.418)

that from?


Quinn (40:36.407)

I went... Okay. Next would immediately get it. It went right over me.


Darien (40:36.588)

That's a poem by Emily Dickinson.



Darien (40:44.76)

Yeah, yeah, yeah


and on the strangest sea, yet never in extremity, it asked a crumb of me.


Damn Dickens, there it is. There she is. That's the idea. I like that. The hope, yeah, hope is a thing with feathers, but I like the ending of it. Like, but it doesn't ask, it gives and gives and survives so much hardship and it never asks anything of you.


Quinn (41:19.799)

Yep, yep. That's why she lives on forever.


DJ (41:22.084)

Gotta love it.


Quinn (41:31.333)

Yeah.


DJ (41:35.958)

Yeah.


Quinn (41:38.829)

Mm-hmm. Just to sort of go back to...


is Hope then in prison when she's in the jar. And then also like what other things were released. I think it's so interesting that everyone is sort of just like for sure we know everything that was in the jar. It's like, okay, like this myth had to travel through like literally thousands of people's translations over the years in order to just to get written down. And you don't think anybody like left off one


Darien (41:46.576)

Yeah.


Darien (41:57.709)

Mmm, yeah.


Darien (42:05.371)

Mm-hmm.


Yeah.


Quinn (42:12.905)

Dramatics. I had exactly like how do we know there wasn't a mixture of good and bad things in there and the only thing that left was left was hope and it's like okay. Yeah, through the years we have given like we forgot about I don't know what are other good things joy.


Darien (42:14.319)

Yeah, or changed it to have a push agenda.


DJ (42:20.844)

Mm-hmm.


Darien (42:21.361)

Mm-hmm.


DJ (42:32.505)

Hehehe


Darien (42:34.011)

Harmony sunshine No rainbows love a rainbow. I saw a great rainbow the other day. It was beautiful


Quinn (42:37.82)

Rainbows.


DJ (42:41.453)

Big fan of rainbows.


Quinn (42:45.095)

That's great! I saw a double rainbow. I guess it was a month ago, but it was very exciting. Yeah.


Darien (42:49.443)

I love it. That's so good. Yeah, it's interesting because The the poem implies that hope was just the last to try to escape and the only reason it didn't get out was Pandora closed the jar again So I really I really do want to give props to Raya Orden's Reinterpretation as that hope will not leave without permission. You have to give it up because I do think that is profound and meaningful and so I ask you to


Quinn (43:09.09)

Mm-hmm.


DJ (43:10.861)

Yeah.


Quinn (43:14.343)

Yeah.


Darien (43:17.667)

Why do you think hope was in the jar and what do you think it serves for it to still be in there?


Quinn (43:22.993)

Oof.


DJ (43:23.905)

It's the last thing somebody gives up before they give up.


Darien (43:27.503)

Mm-hmm.


Quinn (43:28.939)

I know, I feel like I've completely bought into what Rick is selling. Like...


Darien (43:32.843)

I know it's too good. I know. It's hard. I'm a little.


DJ (43:35.407)

Like it's very strong.


Darien (43:38.983)

Mm-hmm.


Quinn (43:39.027)

Yeah, yeah, um, because we do have that phrase, you give up hope. So it does feel like something that has to be given up and there is sort of a decision that has to be made. Um, but it could be that hope wanted to stay with Pandora. She's like, okay, you, Pandora needs hope. So I will stay in the jar that's with Pandora. I don't know.


Darien (43:45.017)

Yeah.


DJ (43:45.519)

Yeah.


Darien (43:59.365)

Yeah.


DJ (44:01.165)

Probably needed it.


Darien (44:06.255)

I'll yeah, she needs she's about to get blamed for it. Yes exactly DJ I Also, um, I'm thinking about it and my brain isn't just being like what do I think it means an interpreted text? But I'm like, okay. Well if I was gonna write this What do I think happened and I'm like, well hair is not involved very interesting in this first woman who's being sent to be the wife of Of a Titan. Yeah, so I really should be involved


DJ (44:06.689)

And Thor is about to be blamed for a lot.


Quinn (44:10.195)

I'm out.


DJ (44:29.959)

Titan.


Darien (44:34.295)

And the fact that Zeus isn't letting her be involved and that Zeus is setting up this first woman, this first woman for like marriage and stuff to be viewed as a punishment, all of suffering, maybe Hera doesn't like that very much. So maybe she is the one that put hope in the jar. Hope to hold on to Pandora when she's trapped.


Quinn (44:34.501)

Yeah.


DJ (44:48.665)

Mm-hmm.


Quinn (44:49.007)

Well, hey, there was no, was there marriage before?


Darien (44:55.259)

Yes, but also yeah, because all the gods, yeah. Yeah, but yeah, so I would put forth, okay, this is purely just me if I was gonna write some Greek myth stuff, but I would like to think that Hera put hope in the jar to comfort Pandora when she's blamed for these unjust things she's not responsible for. When life is hard on the wives and the women, they can have hope from a goddess.


Quinn (44:56.039)

There was. Oh, but it would be Codename to the Gods. OK, yes. Totally makes sense.


DJ (44:56.845)

Cause with the gods.


Quinn (45:21.379)

Mm-hmm. I'm just sort of surprised that I'm, well, OK. I'm impressed with Hesiod that he didn't make Hera send the jar in the first place.


Darien (45:34.243)

Right, it feels like a Hera move, but Hera also wasn't the one who was mad at Prometheus. It's Zeus that Prometheus made Zeus look bad twice.


DJ (45:38.593)

Scorned here? Yeah.


Quinn (45:39.873)

Exactly.


Quinn (45:45.027)

Yes. Yeah. But I just think it would have been a really easy thing for him to be like, oh, Hera, that person, that's the goddess that I always say is super jealous. So let's say she's jealous that Zeus spent all this time making another woman.


DJ (45:45.256)

Yeah.


Darien (45:55.187)

Yeah.



Darien (46:02.575)

Yeah, right? No, that would have been, yeah, I guess we have to give him props for that. But it's also interesting because it's like, the moral is you cannot escape from Zeus. So it's almost saying like, oh, but these, what? I think we talked about in the previous episode, these ones are so back to back, it's hard not to keep like, they're so intertwined in that it is, at the time of Hesiod, yeah, also that, but in the time of Hesiod, like.


Quinn (46:23.015)

Pandora is his sister-in-law.


Darien (46:28.075)

It was viewed as like Zeus was right to respond as such. Like this was a separation between man and the gods and all the suffering is because Prometheus got in between them and now we don't have that connection anymore. And then a couple hundred years later, you have plays that are very outright. No, Zeus is a tyrant. Zeus is an unjust leader. This punishment on Prometheus was not fair. Prometheus was important to humanity. These things are good for humanity. And so Prometheus got this kind of like hero treatment.


that Pandora never gets. Sometimes it's like.


DJ (46:59.392)

Mm-hmm.


Quinn (47:00.803)

Yeah. But then at the same time, Zeus has stories related to him where it's like, yeah, he's never a nice guy, but he is sort of depicted as a good god. It's sort of weird to say good god instead of good guy. But it's interesting that Pandora never gets that turnaround, Hera never gets that turnaround. It really reminds me of like,


Darien (47:09.511)

Mm-hmm. Yes.


Darien (47:14.759)

I'm not gonna lie.


Darien (47:25.031)

Mm-hmm.


Quinn (47:27.955)

I don't know, I think it's interesting that Zeus is able to be both this horrible tyrant, but also a generous god when it comes to, I don't know, Perseus. He's good at the Perseus myths, other than he impregnates his mother. Um... But it sort of reminds me of, I'm bringing it up again, because I went to a Lutheran college, so I know Christian theology. Um...


Darien (47:34.96)

Mm-hmm.


DJ (47:39.053)

Mm-hmm.


Yeah.


Darien (47:42.283)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.


Darien (47:54.031)

Bring it, please. I went to a Nazarene college! Yeah, let's talk about it! You're gonna tell me there's no way Judaism was not influenced by this Pandora myth in there at like versions of Eve, and then the Renaissance Christians, go on. Tell us more about it, Quinn.


Quinn (47:57.207)

Whoop whoop, religion! Um...



Quinn (48:07.399)

Exactly, exactly where I was going for it. Yeah, it's like Old Testament God versus New Testament God. Old Testament God, he is a mean motherfucker. You listen when he says something. New Testament God, he's got a son. He's nice. He's like evolved a bit more. He's a dad now.


Darien (48:21.069)

Mm-hmm.


Darien (48:24.536)

Mm-hmm. Having a kid really chilled him out. Mm-hmm.


Quinn (48:27.751)

Really did. Uh, so it just it reminds me of that sort of dichotomy within that Within the one God and then within Zeus


DJ (48:28.002)

Mm-hmm.


Darien (48:36.839)

Mm-hmm. No, that makes no sense. It's also, as we talked about, the culture, this male-driven, not just led by men, but also meant to uphold men and dismissive of women, would find it beneficial to uplift male characters over the centuries and like, well, Prometheus is a trickster. No, Prometheus is great. Well, Zeus is terrible. No, Zeus is great. And you get more versions where these characters can be one or the other in adaptation and stuff, because...


As long as a dude is our hero and the one that the story's looking up to, that maintains the status quo no matter who that dude is. With women, I think we only see a trend of them being torn down. You don't turn around and find a myth where, oh yeah, in the early ones, like, oh, Hera was this and this and this and now she's great. Or there was a time with like, Thesis or Pandora here or like even Hera who...


Quinn (49:16.026)

Yeah.


Darien (49:29.707)

was the victim of assault and forced into a marriage she didn't want to a husband who just runs around and commits adultery on her all the time. But she is vengeful and angry and spiteful and jealous. Never, except in Jason, which is also, she is great to Jason. And Jason is supposed to be a myth that predates even the Iliad. Like it's before the Odyssey. Like Jason's.


DJ (49:55.452)

Mm hmm.


Quinn (49:55.545)

Yeah.


Darien (49:58.663)

Dad, oh, not Jason's dad. One of Jason's, the Argonaut sailing buddies is Achilles' dad. Or is he Patroclus' dad? He's one of the dads. We'll talk about it next week. But.


Quinn (50:05.211)

Hahahaha


Quinn (50:10.211)

Oh wait, isn't it like, but isn't, oh gosh, fully lost it. I can't remember their names, but Helen's brothers, like Helen of Troy's brothers is also on Jason's boat. I think then they like drowned before Troy happens, but it really did. Hercules was involved. It was stocked.


DJ (50:10.223)

Yeah.


Darien (50:24.783)

Yeah, probably. So yeah.


DJ (50:28.225)

Yager really had an all-star cast.


Darien (50:29.883)

Oh yeah. An all-star cast. Orpheus was there. Adalanna was there, I'm pretty sure. But yeah, all-star cast. And Hera is benevolent here. She helps them, she guides them. And this is an older myth, and we do not see that Hera anywhere else, or any other myth that's supposed to take place later. Like, that's just not. So.


Quinn (50:37.731)

Yeah.


Quinn (50:49.37)

Yeah.


Darien (50:57.539)

The last thing I think we need to talk about is the box.


Quinn (51:01.175)

Or as a jar.


Darien (51:02.395)

Where's the jar? Well, so we have all heard it. We all, I would say, learned it as Pandora's box. So I ask what's with the box? So yeah, so Epiphos, as it was originally described, is a very large storage jar. Usually it's half buried in the ground used for wine, oil or grain, and can also be referred to as a funerary jar, which I'm assuming is the jar you put people's ashes in.


DJ (51:15.65)

It's something to store something in.


DJ (51:32.303)

next.


Darien (51:33.699)

So why is it a box? Why did we, well, I would also maintain that I think it's totally reasonable that even if you're doing a myth retelling to use Pandora's box instead of Pandora's jar or pithos, because it's like, also like you don't store things in jar. I'm like Pandora's gonna bust out a jar and I'm just thinking like a, it's a mason jar or like it used to be a, it's a glass spaghetti sauce jar that she kept, like we don't store things in jars like that. We store things in boxes. So I think that's fine.


DJ (51:46.457)

Who the fuck knows what a Pythos is? And a jar just sounds boring as fuck. Yeah.


DJ (51:54.783)

Yeah, I'm thinking...


DJ (51:58.943)

Yeah.


Quinn (52:03.547)

You store weed in jars?


Darien (52:06.723)

You know what that- you know- yeah, you make a great point, Quinn. You make a great- it could go either way. Follow your bliss. But how did we get the box? How- how are you gonna say something, Quinn?


DJ (52:06.789)

That you do, I suppose.


Quinn (52:08.243)

I'm sorry.


Quinn (52:13.407)

Okay, here.


Quinn (52:17.783)

Nope, I was just trying to think of something else that's in a jar, but peaches. Moonshine. Pickles.


Darien (52:22.763)

Moonshine. DJ's excellent moonshine. Pickles. Ha ha ha. OK, so.


DJ (52:23.979)

Wünschein.


Quinn (52:29.948)

Ha ha


Was it just like a mistranslation? I feel like it was a mistranslation one day and it turned into a jar. Or it turned-


DJ (52:36.974)

I feel like it was read as like storage, like truly like this something was stored in this. We don't store things in something shaped like that. We store it in something shaped like this.


Darien (52:36.975)

That's what I've seen as s-


Darien (52:47.959)

Mm-hmm. So exactly. So it's usually it's a mistranslation that's often attributed to the 16th century humanists Aramis of Rotterdam. Now he translated It does so ah Aramis of Rotterdam would be a great dog name like a little not a super big dog But like a medium sized Yes, I was gonna say a raw. No right. Yeah. Okay, so in


Quinn (52:59.023)

Sounds like a dog. Ha ha ha.


DJ (53:01.491)

a little bit.


Quinn (53:06.789)

A miniature Rottweiler. Ha. Exactly. I'm so sorry.


DJ (53:09.041)

Or just like a Rotterdamp. That's the dog breed.


Darien (53:15.099)

In 1508, he translated Hesiod's tale of Pandora into Latin for the Adagia, which was a collection of proverts. Now he translates an illustration of the Latin saying, Molo excepto stalliptus sapit, sure, whatever, from experiencing trouble a fool is made wise. So in this version of the myth, he writes to go with this proverb. It's


Epimetheus, whose name means afterthoughts, that opens the box. Yeah. And Hesiod comments that his name is like, he whom mistakes made wise. So in this version where he writes that he's the one that opens the box, Aramis changed the Greek pithos to the Latin prixus, meaning vos, box, God, meaning box.


Quinn (53:49.839)

I've had such a burn. I don't even know. Yeah.


Darien (54:12.727)

And it's specifically a vessel from the, it's not just like a square bus, it's like a cylindrical box with a lid you can remove that was like really common throughout the classical world.


Quinn (54:21.267)

How fucked up do you think his afterlife is? Like, oh yeah, everybody's agreed that I made the ultimate mistranslation.


Darien (54:30.135)

Yeah, and that's why you have opening Pandora's box is the proverb. Though it's not quite the same as you learn from your mistakes. It's more just like, well, you're really messed up, didn't you? Yeah, you made a huge mistake. But okay, so here's, I would also have an argument in defense of Aramis because all the sources say, oh, it was a mistranslation. It was a mistranslation. But they don't say that him saying epithemis, opening the box was a mistranslation.


DJ (54:30.693)

I'm going to go ahead and turn it off.


DJ (54:39.969)

You're fucked up. You hate to see it.


Quinn (54:41.224)

Ha ha ha.


Darien (54:59.011)

He very clearly made a decision in retelling the myth that it was this guy whose name mistakes made him wise that opened the box or that opened the jar, excuse me. So why then does it have to be a mistranslation? Why did he make a mistake? Was it not a translation decision? Did he not, as we said, we don't use a jar. I'm gonna say it's a box because that makes more sense. And he's not trying to preserve the myth as is, he's changing it to go with his collection of proverbs.


DJ (55:21.829)

Yeah, it's cloak reel.


Quinn (55:28.067)

And honestly, I think it makes more sense if Epith- oh my god, Epimethius, uh, I don't- I don't even know anymore. I'm just like going for it. Um, uh, but, uh, yeah. He, um, I feel like it makes much more sense for-


DJ (55:33.121)

Open Math this? Yeah, if he opens it.


Darien (55:34.179)

Yeah, that epimephies, that sounds so much better than what I've been saying.


EpiMephys was also good.


Quinn (55:48.727)

Epimethias, Epimethias 2, open the jar box, just because it simplifies the myth. It makes it a lot easier to tell. It's not, oh yeah, some husband told his wife not to open this box that he got from his boss, and then she did this instead, and it's like, no, he got this box from his boss and was told not to open it, he opened it. Like, it simplifies the whole story.


Darien (55:56.711)

Mm-hmm.


Darien (56:13.946)

Yeah.


DJ (56:15.268)

Yeah.


DJ (56:19.209)

It's not even like it's the last time it happens in a Greek story either. The fucking... Odysseus' crew, when they see the bag of winds, they open it and tack on another seven years to this adventure.


Darien (56:29.955)

Yeah, the wins! Mm-hmm, it happened. Don't open this. Well, yeah, exactly, Dee. So I, you know what? I don't think it's a mistranslation. I think it was a translation decision, an adaptation. Like he changed it into a box, and so it's been a box ever since. He didn't make a mistake. He made a choice. Yeah. Yeah, I made more sense in what I was doing. I was not trying to tell. Listen, if you wanna know the...


Quinn (56:31.082)

Hahaha


Quinn (56:40.195)

An adaptation decision.


DJ (56:40.677)

choice.


Yeah.


DJ (56:48.569)

Like I know what a pithos is, dumbass. I understand what it is. I just didn't like it. Like it sounds dumb.


Quinn (56:54.928)

I'm sorry.


Darien (56:58.911)

I also changed to open it. Like, why are you acting like I made a mistake? It's not, yeah, it's not a mistranslation. Cause I think mistranslation suggests he got it wrong. I think he made a decision, but. And those are all the parts on Pandora, Hope, the Jar, the Box, the Goddess, all the gang.


DJ (57:00.877)

Look at the fucking footnotes if you want to know what it actually is.


Quinn (57:03.091)

I'm gonna go.


DJ (57:09.539)

Yeah.


Quinn (57:17.703)

Do we want to talk at all about sort of the ever ongoing curiosity killed the cats part of the story?


Darien (57:24.199)

Absolutely Quinn, please expound.


Quinn (57:27.203)

Yeah, so I feel like that was the first time when I was taught this myth. I think this was one that was taught in like English class or something like that where we had to read it. Or at least read a version of it. And it was very much with the sort of lesson of don't be curious. Like this causes trouble if you are curious about things. If you are told to do something, you follow the instructions. Don't be curious and break the rules.


Darien (57:35.717)

Uh-huh.


Darien (57:46.631)

Mm-hmm.


Darien (57:56.519)

Mm-hmm.


Quinn (57:57.895)

And I just think that's really interesting. Lately I've been watching a lot of The Nanny. Uh, so, and like literally the episode I was watching before joining this call, because it's what I'm doing with my life right now, I was, uh, it's the episode after the strike episode, so I don't know the name of it, but there's a strike episode in season two, it's the episode after it. Uh, basically, uh,


Darien (58:02.875)

Ooh!


DJ (58:03.565)

Hehehehehe


Darien (58:08.423)

HA!


Darien (58:12.507)

Fabulous.


Quinn (58:25.075)

So Mr. Sheffield brings in some star that just had plastic surgery and he is trying to keep it a secret who the star is, especially from Nanny Fine. And Fran gets all like pissed off like, oh, like you're just hiding this from me because I'm a woman. And he's also not telling, oh god, Cece, the other woman, but he did tell the butler.


Darien (58:37.831)

Mm-hmm.


Darien (58:50.647)

Uh-huh. Oh.


Quinn (58:54.869)

Fran finds out it's Cher. And Fran then tells her best friend, and then the next day, the house is swarmed with paparazzi. And Fran thinks it's her fault. And she's just like, oh, my god, I'm going to get fired, even though, of course, she's not. Mr. Shuffield's in love with her. Surprise.


Darien (58:58.192)

Ahaha!


Darien (59:07.975)

Uh oh.


Darien (59:16.833)

Hahaha!



Quinn (59:19.143)

And so like she like and Mr. Shelfield is blaming her and it's like all like oh you're so like women gossip This is what you do. This is why I didn't want to tell you And it turns out


Darien (59:30.2)

Oh, but okay, sorry, I figured out.


Quinn (59:33.403)

that, like there's a whole side story going on with this parrot as well, but that the butler, Niles, he was gossiping in the bath house with men and told so-and-so. And it's like, oh so it wasn't Fran, it was you, and then she like, I don't know, it ends on a freeze frame as the nanny does, without making a further point.


Darien (59:45.48)

Ah. Mmm.


Darien (59:57.263)

Yep.


Darien (01:00:01.627)

We just ended on a joke, ended on a laugh, everyone goes home happy.


Quinn (01:00:05.039)

Exactly. Even though it doesn't sort of, I don't know, like we've been spending the whole episode blaming the entire gender of women for gossiping. And now, exactly, we just got one...


Darien (01:00:14.763)

And it was, yeah, right? We could have seen a little payback.


Quinn (01:00:20.327)

button joke of payback. And I just think that's interesting that even to the nanny, the myth of women being curious, women being gossips, and not being able to keep a secret, from, I feel like it stems to Pandora and then probably Eve somehow and Lilith. It.


Darien (01:00:33.541)

Mm-hmm.


Darien (01:00:40.239)

Yeah, absolutely. Can't follow directions.


Quinn (01:00:43.583)

Exactly. But it all stems back to these myths. It's like a foundational story. It repeats over and over and over again. And it's like, how do we make it stop?


Darien (01:00:54.531)

Yeah, right? We let other people write stories where they don't have this vibe.


Quinn (01:00:58.895)

And the nanny was a great stepping stone. We ended on, no, everybody does this.


Darien (01:01:03.839)

Yeah, yeah, that's true. I think it's also interesting that Pandora, she's made up to be beautifully irresistible and completely untrustworthy to torture men, and then given the jar full of things that are terrible, and that she opens it willingly to release all this stuff but traps hope inside, perhaps to attempt to suggest that she is denying hope in a world of suffering that you won't even have this, because I won't let you.


And later, Tellings will say, oh, no, it was her curiosity. She didn't know what was in the jar. And that is almost more devious as a depiction of women, because Paynora is the first woman. So she is meant to be the model all women are based off of. And that she, if it is curiosity, if she doesn't know that the jar,


contains all these horrors, then it would suggest that she doesn't know that she was created just to punish men. She simply doesn't know any better, and if only her husband had been more wise and kept her from doing that. It is for her own good and the good of all around her that this woman be controlled and monitored at all times. She just doesn't know the evil she's capable of, and it is up to the men to... She's too innocent, and that's equally...


Quinn (01:02:12.339)

She's just too innocent.


Darien (01:02:17.067)

as distressing. I would rather her have done it on purpose and laughed maniacally than it be the story of like, well, women just they're so simple. They just don't know any better.


Quinn (01:02:27.783)

They don't understand consequences.


Darien (01:02:30.555)

Mm-hmm.


DJ (01:02:34.533)

Well, Pandora was born yesterday, so. Ha ha ha.


Darien (01:02:36.943)

You know what, that's also fair, she was born yesterday. Literally born sexy yesterday for poor Pandora. 


Darien (01:04:38.927)

Do y'all wanna talk about Pandora in pop culture and how we see her depicted these days?


Quinn (01:04:44.66)

You mean the music service and bracelet?


DJ (01:04:45.125)

Sure.


Darien (01:04:47.959)

Yes. I love you said music service. I honestly, when I hear Pandora, I do think the charm bracelets, like, that's what I think. And I could not figure out why either of them are called Pandora. I think it's just name sounds good kind of thing. Cause the music service is wild, but yeah, okay. It's like Andromeda. It just kind of sounds nice. Pandora, this little bracelet jewelry thing that you give in a box and open up. Although the thing about charm bracelets is,


DJ (01:04:47.993)

Hehehehehehe


Quinn (01:04:53.undefined)

Ha ha!


DJ (01:05:03.22)

Yeah.


Quinn (01:05:03.606)

Yeah.


Darien (01:05:16.419)

You don't just have one charm. You constantly need to get more charms for that bracelet. So it is ultimately a horror you have unleashed upon yourself, suffering onto the world. You gave someone a charm bracelet and now everyone is just gonna, oh, they like tigers. I'll get them a tiger charm for their charm bracelets. You have unleashed suffering onto them.


Quinn (01:05:35.355)

When I was in elementary school, I went through a big charm bracelet phase, like everyone did. But I had a charm on one of my charm bracelets. I had multiple because... Different charms for different days. But one of them was, I guess it was called like a prayer box or something, but it's literally a miniature charm-sized box on the charm bracelet. And like my mom would tell me it's the wishing box. So you would open it up and put a wish in there,


DJ (01:05:35.863)

Mm-hmm.


Darien (01:05:39.107)

Nice.


Darien (01:05:46.678)

Mmm. Mm-hmm.


Darien (01:06:02.759)

Mm-hmm.


Quinn (01:06:05.769)

I think more traditional you're supposed to like make a little prayer to God close it in there But I know it's a cute little thing on the charm bracelet But that's always whenever like when I was little and I saw all Pandora's bracelets and praying to our charm bracelets I always just thought they must all be little boxes


Darien (01:06:06.095)

That's cute.


Darien (01:06:12.9)

That's so charming.


DJ (01:06:14.407)

It's very sweet.


Darien (01:06:18.407)

Mm-hmm.


DJ (01:06:28.723)

Ha ha!


Darien (01:06:30.601)

But honestly, yeah.


Quinn (01:06:32.731)

Yeah, I was really disappointed when I found out they weren't. I was like, why does anybody want them then?


Darien (01:06:36.576)

They're like, what? Why do you want a rocket raccoon charm bracelet?


DJ (01:06:43.045)

For me, and whenever I hear Pandora, I think of two separate alien planets, wouldn't you know. One from Borderlands, which is just this desolate wasteland that in fact holds the hope of becoming the Vault Hunter and finding a Vault. And the other one is James Cameron's Avatar. You got the planet of Pandora.


Darien (01:06:50.019)

Wouldn't you know? Mm-hmm.


Quinn (01:06:50.776)

Hahahaha


Darien (01:07:04.595)

Oh, I wonder what it'll be. There it is! World of Pandora. It's a moon. Yeah. When they descend on it, you can see a massive planet behind it. So this is a moon. They have to write, there's going to be like five movies.


Quinn (01:07:11.716)

Yeah.


DJ (01:07:13.229)

Yeah, the moon of Pandora, that's right. Yeah, it's a moon.


Quinn (01:07:14.243)

It's a moon? I thought it was a planet. Oh wow.


Quinn (01:07:22.683)

Are they ever gonna go to the planet?


I know, like, come on, we're bored with Pandora already, show me the-


DJ (01:07:28.077)

Yeah, but there's five different, like, Navi tribes. I'm not bored of Pandora, but there's still, like, three more tribes we need to fuckin' learn about, okay? Heh heh heh.


Darien (01:07:30.679)

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, DJ loves. Yeah, no, DJ loves Pandora, but yeah, it's the moon of Pandora. And that's just the fact.


Quinn (01:07:35.386)

Oh


DJ (01:07:40.949)

Yeah. And hey, for all we know, it could be a gas giant, okay?


Quinn (01:07:44.688)

Hahaha


Darien (01:07:46.571)

It's still a planet! I think first of the Doctor Who episode, the Pandorica opens. It's just this whole lead up in season five of that the Pandorica is going to open and they have to like kind of try to stop that because they don't know what's the most dangerous thing in all the world is inside of it. And then finally you get to the penultimate episode of the season and we discover that the box is empty. It has been created to be a


Quinn (01:07:47.773)

Hehehe



DJ (01:07:54.922)

That's such a good one. That's a great, great series of episodes.


Darien (01:08:15.879)

prison for the Doctor, who has been deemed to be the most dangerous thing in the universe because the TARDIS will explode and destroy everything, so it must just be... Well, and so...


DJ (01:08:28.845)

was also like the TARDIS was in the center of a sun while all this was going on too.


Darien (01:08:33.403)

They didn't know that. They were just like, well, the doctor pilots the TARDIS. It was like, oh, like the Daleks, the Cybermen, like all of the alien villains all get together to imprison the doctor. Like if you're trapped, the TARDIS won't explode. They didn't know River Song can also pilot the TARDIS. And so it exploded while she was piloting it, but it's okay. So then they, oh, but I also love how it keeps things in stasis so they use it to help an injured Amy Pond.


DJ (01:08:39.866)

Everyone came up. It's like we got to stop this guy


Darien (01:09:02.671)

Get in there and heal. Yes.


DJ (01:09:05.345)

It actually heals you. It keeps you alive forever.


Quinn (01:09:11.812)

Yeah, yeah.


Darien (01:09:11.995)

Cause it's a prison, but it's not meant to kill you, it's meant to like, keep you vital. So when Amy gets injured, they put her in the Pandorica.


Quinn (01:09:17.115)

Which is wild that the Daleks and the Cybermen and everybody teamed up to make something that saves someone's life, ultimately.


Darien (01:09:23.895)

It's, I know, it's wild. But this is where you get the last centurion, where Rory waits and protects the Pandorica throughout for like 2,000 years for Amy, because if something happened to the Pandorica, she would die, so we put, so, sorry, I went on a tiny Doctor Who thing. DJ, you're supposed to stop me from doing that!


Quinn (01:09:31.475)

So cute.


DJ (01:09:33.381)

So good.


Quinn (01:09:41.459)

Totally fine. Totally fine. But I was waiting for you to get to, I know, exactly. I was waiting for you to get to Amy being in the box because it's like, oh, is then Hope in the box? Is Amy's in the box? Ugh!


DJ (01:09:43.096)

What are you talking about? It was relevant!


Darien (01:09:50.112)

So they open it, you- you're right! That's it! Little Amy opens it and she's like, alright kid, let's go, because you think it's the doctor and it's not. It's Amy and she has the plan and she has the things that they're gonna save everything. You're right, I forgot hope was in the box. Thank you Quinn! It all ties together. I really love Matt Smith's seasons of Doctor Who. They bring me joy.


Quinn (01:10:06.275)

It all ties together.


DJ (01:10:12.901)

They were great. Super good.


Quinn (01:10:13.872)

Yeah.


Darien (01:10:17.276)

Uh, thanks, uh, speaking of things that don't bring me joy, once upon a time.


DJ (01:10:21.709)

Ha ha ha!


Quinn (01:10:22.017)

She's in Once Upon a Time, oh no. Ha ha ha.


Darien (01:10:24.783)

No, this is just me bullying myself for doing a once upon a time podcast. Entering storybook, it's currently on hiatus, but the actors just made a deal at the time of recording, so they'll probably back, go check it out. Uh, we love to tear the show apart. So Pandora's not in it, but Pandora's box is in it. And it can be used to trap powerful magical beings. So Mr. Gold uses it.


I'm sorry, Rumpelstiltskin uses it to trap Peter Pan, his father, but at the time, Peter Pan had actually body swapped with Gold's grandson, who's also the Evil Queen's adopted son Henry.


DJ (01:10:50.693)

Hehehe


Quinn (01:11:02.611)

Wait, so this happened in season three? Because I've sort of figured Pandora would be involved when like Hades came to town or like. But.


Darien (01:11:05.827)

This happened in season three.


Darien (01:11:13.487)

You'd think, no, they just, yeah, Pandora never shows up. They just use the box. And I would have ignored that, but I did just wanna say that sentence about the plot to bully myself for having a What's Upon a Time podcast.


Quinn (01:11:21.015)

No, yeah, yeah. It's a terrible show and wonderful. Can't not watch it.


Darien (01:11:28.947)

I know. It's terrible and wonderful and equal measure. Quinn, do you have any Pandora pop culture things?


Quinn (01:11:31.633)

Yep.


Quinn (01:11:35.451)

Um, I feel like you're hitting all of them because I can't think of anything. I'm sure there's like a Pandora Arthur episode, but it's not like I did my research before here and to confirm. Uh, I do actually, I remember specifically there's an episode where DW fights a cyclops. Uh, so... Yes. So who knows? Maybe Pandora showed up in that, but I can't think of anything on the top of my head.


Darien (01:11:43.015)

Mm-hmm.


Darien (01:11:46.609)

Mm-hmm


Darien (01:11:53.563)

There's the Odyssey episode, yeah!


Darien (01:11:58.979)

Maybe. DJ, do you wanna talk about the Box Ghost from Danny Phantom?


DJ (01:12:05.721)

Box ghost eventually gets his hands on the Pandora's box and becomes the most unstoppable ghost there is. Like I haven't seen the episode in years, but I still remember the fact that he became a problem really quick with Pandora's box. It was outstanding. Yeah, it was outstanding. Just the simple fact that like this guy who's a goober


Darien (01:12:17.552)

Mm-hmm.


Darien (01:12:24.496)

He became a problem!


Quinn (01:12:24.723)

Hahaha


Darien (01:12:29.167)

Capital P problem.


DJ (01:12:35.265)

The whole series, right, gets a single item and he's just...


Darien (01:12:35.864)

Yeah


Quinn (01:12:37.483)

I literally skip over episodes and they said Box Ghost was featured.


Darien (01:12:42.828)

Yeah.


DJ (01:12:43.885)

It's like the whole like I'm I feel like everybody else is like try to interact with this box and it's been just nothing Right the whole episode and then the box goes gets it pretty early and he's just stomping everyone. It's amazing


Darien (01:12:57.063)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's pretty great for box ghosts. I also like this episode because Pandora herself is actually in it. She's a ghost, mind you. She has four arms, and she's just decked out in Grecian armor. Because in this, she actually created the box to hold all of the evils, and she is the guardian of it. So she and Danny Phantom and co. team up to get the box back from box ghost. And I think that's great. I love.


DJ (01:13:24.961)

All right, I got one that you guys aren't, I guess I don't know you Quinn, but I know Taryn's not gonna even think of this. So in Halo, there's a mission, right? Where you're getting onto a covenant ship and in this covenant ship, there's been a prison and apparently the prison was called the Pandora's box.


Darien (01:13:35.748)

What? Yeah.


Darien (01:13:51.972)

Oh.


DJ (01:13:52.585)

And within this box, once you open it, you at least the flood, which is this unstoppable parasite that feeds on anything organic and will just cannot be killed unless like you cut its food source off, which happens. It happened once, right?


Darien (01:14:15.128)

Ooh, okay.


DJ (01:14:15.693)

So these halo rings, I'm gonna, small tangent, tiny tangent. The halo rings that you know from halo are actually a weapon that eliminates all organic life in order to stop the flood. And it went off once and it did it, and the flood was about to disappear. And then the covenant found a ship that was housing the last of the flood, which restarted the whole nightmare that is that situation.


Darien (01:14:22.234)

Yeah.


Darien (01:14:29.224)

Oh, okay.


Darien (01:14:46.607)

That's incredible.


DJ (01:14:48.421)

Truly awesome.


Darien

So Pandora's in DC Comics, so I was like, well, obviously Wonder Woman. So when they did the new 52, she made a cameo in every initial title of that launch. Yeah, because they were doing a...


Quinn (01:16:32.276)

Yes, yes.


Quinn (01:16:45.598)

Really?


Darien (01:16:50.175)

A thing where she, like Trinity of Sin Pandora was the series they launched in 2013. It was about her on a cursed crusade to destroy the seven deadly sins.


Quinn (01:17:03.739)

Wow.


Darien (01:17:04.791)

And they kind of just ended with being like, ah, well, okay. So she gets murdered. Yeah. In a rebirth special, she got murdered and disintegrated by a mysterious assailant after she implies he was responsible for all of the sins that she had been blamed for. But they really left that open. They didn't really do much with it.


Quinn (01:17:07.975)

The new 52 was wild. Like, yeah.


Quinn (01:17:29.491)

Didn't finish it. Fun. That reminded me, I think I have a comic that I've never actually read. It's from the 80s. That's called Pandora. It could be, I don't know. I just have it because the cover art was really cool and I was like, I'll read this one day and I've never gotten to it.


Darien (01:17:36.591)

Mm-hmm.


Darien (01:17:39.783)

I- Ooh, Avatar Press! That was the next thing I was gonna talk about.


DJ (01:17:40.301)

Hehehehe


DJ (01:17:49.488)

Nice.


Darien (01:17:49.583)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, if it's the same one, Pandora was one of the flagship comics by Avatar Press, and it is about Pandora of Greek myth, who is still alive, and she has spent her existence trying to recapture or destroy all the horrors she released from. It does sound really cool.


Quinn (01:18:07.815)

That's so cool. Now I really want to read that.


Darien (01:18:13.231)

However, if you look at the comic, of course it's like, oh, 80s comic with a female character. Yeah, she's very busty. Yeah, her outfit's like whatever. But I was like, you know, that's the part for the chorus I can't get. Oh, you can see her nipples through her top. Okay, never mind. I can't, I won't, I'll give you busty and cleavage. I won't give you nipples through the top, Avatar press. But the premise beats ass, so I'll take more of that. And the DC Comics thing, the sins are part of her.


Quinn (01:18:17.752)

Yeah, yeah.


Quinn (01:18:26.169)

Oh, wonderful.


Quinn (01:18:31.883)

Yeah, yeah.


DJ (01:18:32.071)

Hehehehe


Darien (01:18:40.751)

But in this, and they destroy the multiverse every time. In this time though, hope is also a part of her and that's how she beats it. So, very interesting.


Quinn (01:18:47.995)

Huh.


Yeah, now I like really, I need to dig that comic out and actually read it. I even like, I hovered over it like a week ago too. Um, yeah definitely. I might even have multiple issues. I don't know why. Uh, exactly, exactly.


Darien (01:18:55.095)

Yeah, let us know. Oh my gosh, yeah, check it out. Let us know if it's worthwhile.


Darien (01:19:05.295)

Huh? It just, listen, when you collect comics, this is kind of just a thing that happens by accident. You're like, why do I have this? I never meant to. And sometimes it just feels like the comics migrate to you. Like they know that you are a comic person and so they will just suddenly appear in your collection because they know you're a safe person to be with. I don't know.


Quinn (01:19:21.831)

Yeah. And I don't know.


Darien (01:20:36.18)

There are a lot of other things that have Pandora in it, just not things that I really can speak on because they're not things I've watched or things I was super interested in, like the DC Comics thing I was pretty interested in. So that's all I have. Does anyone else have a pop culture Pandora or thoughts on the episode that they would like to dive into before we run away?


DJ (01:20:46.177)

Mm-hmm.


DJ (01:20:57.953)

I'm very excited for Avatar Frontiers of Pandora. It's gonna be a very fun game. December 7th. It comes out very soon.


Darien (01:21:00.991)

Oh hey! When does that come out? You've been telling me about it for ages. Hey! So close!


Darien (01:25:53.491)

Incredible. Quinn, thank you, thank you for joining us! Where can people find you in your incredible creations?


Quinn (01:26:11.835)

So you can listen to all the episodes of the Monstrous Woman pod. Right now we're on hiatus, but one day we'll be back. Don't you worry. But then you can also follow me if you want to see some embroidery stuff. I'm a very sporadic poster, but when I do, I do. So yeah. But you can follow me at at, oh my god, I just fully blanked. At on, wow. At on quins and needles. Wow.


Darien (01:26:20.551)

Mm-hmm.


Darien (01:26:38.307)

Yeah, there you did it!



Quinn (01:26:41.135)

There's someone else who's at Quins and Needles and it's someone whose last name is Quinn and I'm like, you're not a real Quinn.


Darien (01:26:48.247)

You're not all! Yep, uh, it quins- I mean, embroidery stuff is amazing. Absolutely go check it out. Uh, you'll probably be done with this hoop by the time this episode comes out. Uh, currently working on a really cool alien girl. So speaking of aliens... Mm-hmm.



Quinn (01:27:01.519)

Yes, hopefully I'm working on her face right now and I've changed her hair color like four times so


DJ (01:27:07.9)

Hehehehehehe


Darien (01:27:08.195)

So go follow Quinn on Insta, you'll be able to see that. And if it's not up yet, it just means that this episode came out before Quinn was finished totally. Got a cool Miss Marvel hoop that I'm in love with. Also did an amazing void fish from the Adventure Zone that glows in the dark hoop for me, lives in my room. So happy.


Quinn (01:27:14.939)

Yeah, yeah.


Quinn (01:27:24.943)

Yes, yeah.


Yeah, so speaking of, if you want something commissioned, I don't know, message me. Definitely a possibility. If you want something that's on the feed, it's in my room.


Darien (01:27:32.227)

Yeah! Like for real! It's so cool! It was really fun!


Darien (01:27:41.207)

Yeah, no, it's cool. Yeah, go commission Quinn. It's beautiful stuff and it's just so one of a kind and makes me so happy. But yes, obviously links to all that will be in the show notes. What else do we need to do DJ?


Quinn (01:27:47.326)

Aw, thanks.


DJ (01:27:57.177)

Well, we don't need to do anything. What you need to do, dear listener, is go to patreon.com forward slash Muses Mythology, where we have a bunch of beautiful, amazing content for each and every single one of you. Starting at just $1 a month, you get bloopers. At five, you get bonus episodes every other week. At 10, you get access to it all, the whole shebang. You get the remith, you get the bonus episodes, you get the bloopers, and you better believe you get musemiths, baby.


Darien (01:28:04.121)

Mm-hmm.


Darien (01:28:12.391)

Mm-hmm.


Darien (01:28:21.051)

Mm-hmm.


DJ (01:28:25.989)

12 days of Amusemas, we did it last year, we're doing it again this year. We're so excited for you guys to hear it. I'm so excited to do it once more.


Darien (01:28:33.295)

To clarify, Muzemus is not just for $10 tier. Every one of, every patron gets a Muzemus episode. The 12, the 12, the 12 consecutive bonus episodes.


DJ (01:28:37.461)

No, that's, everyone's gonna get it. Everybody gets, everybody gets it. Oh yeah. It's actually only available for $300 a month.


Quinn (01:28:40.525)

I was gonna say, I can't live without my muse-mas.


Quinn (01:28:49.069)

I'll pay it.


Darien (01:28:51.087)

For that much you can fly to here and we will let you sit in the room while we record an episode.


Quinn (01:28:53.959)

Hahaha


DJ (01:28:56.625)

You will be able to give a take on one sentence that we say. So pick two, pick two, yeah, choose wisely.


Quinn (01:29:01.955)

Ooh! Choose wisely.


Darien (01:29:03.823)

That's how much it's worth. Just choose wisely.


Thank you all so much for listening. We will be back in your ears next week to talk about Achilles and Patroclus with another very special guest. And until next time, don't be like Zeus.


DJ (01:29:26.201)

Don't be like Zeus.


Darien Smartt
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