Story 76: The Iliad is #Relatable (Just Not to You) w/ Emily Garber

Nov 28

“Oh my God, the winds are real?!”

It’s the big one. This whole season has been leading up to The Iliad. Buckle up, dear listeners, because we brought in a real Iliad kid. Emily Garber (she/her), classics scholar(ish) and co-host of The Monster Donut podcast, shares the kind of insight about The Iliad you’d usually have to pay tuition to get. And so the episode is the length of a decent college lecture. Enjoy!

Other topics include dividing Greek classical scholars into two camps, how The Iliad was “meant” to be consumed, what makes a text Homeric (Twist: Not because of the author), the end of Darien getting away with calling Ovid a hack, Good Guy Hector, what’s actually in The Iliad, the ways translator bias can influence the translated text, what the Ancient Greeks truly meant when they spoke of “the gods,” and who is really responsible for the Trojan War (Hint: The folly and failings of humanity).

Get more of Emily!
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/emilyjgarber/
Twitter/X/Whatever: https://twitter.com/9emilylime9
Monster Donut Podcast: https://linktr.ee/monsterdonut

Spoilers for Troy (2004)

Content Warning: This episode contains mentions of and conversations about war, death, colonization, white supremacy, destruction of ancient artifacts, and homophobia

About Us

Muses of Mythology was created and co-hosted by Darien and DJ Smartt.

Our music is Athens Festival by Martin Haene. Our cover art is by Audrey Miller. Find her on Instagram @bombshellnutshellart

Love the podcast? Support us on Patreon and get instant access to bloopers, outtakes, and bonus episodes! Patreon.com/musesofmythology

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Find us @MusesOfMyth on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. Find all of our episodes and episode transcripts at MusesOfMythology.com

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TRANSCRIPT

00:18.53

Darien

Welcome to Muses of Mythology a podcast we explore how ancient myths become part of modern pop culture through the lens of Rick Riodan’s Percy Jackson and the Olympian series. This is story 76: The Iliad I'm your co-host and podcasting muse, Darien Smartt. Joining me is my coast and brother DJ

00:40.72

Hows everybody doing today I am the muse of epics we do with anything epic whether it be spoor beowulf the odyssey and the aliad we are wonderful here I said spore. Yeah there in.

00:48.76

Darien

Did you say Spore? Okay, well I need I need to muse around about that in the garden for a minute.

00:58.42

Absolutely.

01:14.52

Darien

this is a big one. It's the Iliad. It's one of the big ones I once heard that when you get into the field of of like Greek classical studies. You're either an odyssey kid or you're an Iliad kid.

01:17.58

Um, that it is. It's the Iliad.

01:30.99

Um, yeah.

01:34.10

Darien

And ah good news for us I found as an Iliad kid.

01:35.79

Great I feel like that like straight up comes from whichever one you're exposed to first.

01:42.94

Emily

That's not true because not necessarily true.

Oh that's not true. Well there you go I know crazy.

01:42.76

Darien

Like it. Let me introduce the meors' the id yeah the wild she had a talk because you were so wrong. We are joined today by co-host of the Monster Donut podcast and classic scholar ish, Emily Garber

02:02.28

Emily

Yes, I'm I'm called that because I have a bachelor's degree in Greek and latin but I feel like most actual classic scholars would not consider that qualified enough. However I have a lot of special interests in this and. Kind of also and also an actual degree so that that's where I'm at.

02:21.93

Darien

Yes, no Emily is ah for real for real in this whole thing not just we like it for real. Ah.

02:29.73

Um, yeah.

02:31.94

Emily

Liking as valid you can still do a lot of research is fun. You don't have to like have a professor you know cause you psychological damage to you know, be an expert in this stuff.

02:39.45

Darien

This is a very good point I feel like we are more emotionally sound from just doing it for podcast fund than for grade that we paid for ah so well, it's big. That's because well on the podcast. No did you I think you've made some really and.

02:43.14

True I don't think I'd be getting anything more than like a d on some of the shit that I've said on this podcast I think. I think the teacher would look at me like a fool. Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, 100%

03:02.49

Darien

What depends on the teacher I also think it depends on whether or not you did the god damn homework. Ah Emily we expound on the comment you made earlier regarding ah Iliad kids.

03:04.47

Emily

Yeah.

03:12.86

Emily

I was going to say. Do you say you heard it from somewhere. Did you hear from me.

03:17.10

Darien

So it was you it was you specifically we were sitting having dessert in New York yeah

03:22.83

Emily

Yep, um, know that? yes so I love that story because it's not It's not mine though. It my friends but basically a friend of mine expressed to a professor of ours. Ah, right? at the beginning of our college career that she was interested in pursuing classics and that professor immediately said. Well, there's Iliad people and there's odyssey people and you have to pick one like I thought so was the first introduction to the field. Um, and it is kind of true you when you talk to other classicists. You'll start of get a feel like you kind of start to realize like oh you're an odyssey person aren't you.

03:42.41

So.

03:44.88

Darien

Um.

03:55.15

Darien

Mm.

03:55.71

Emily

Like oh you're you're you're an alien people you're you're like me. Um, um, that being said, they're both amazing poems and I think everyone generally classics is a fan of both I don't I don't think I've come across any homer haters. Ah I'm sure they're out there. But.

04:00.12

Darien

You're like me.

04:12.67

Um.

04:13.18

Darien

Ah, up positive of course.

04:15.43

Emily

Um, but generally um, the odyssey as a story is a lot more about like the journey and the adventure story and I feel like a lot of people. It's It's definitely not to sound like I'm this is probably just the beginning but it it sounds a little pretentious but it's true. It's it's better in English because of that.

04:34.34

Darien

So no, can you elaborate on that. What do? what do you mean by like as in.

04:35.37

Emily

Um, and so so by nature of Greek Epic Poetry The Iliad is both of them have a lot of repetition as part of the way they're composed. Um, just because that's just like a convention of the genre. They're originally like oral poems So you'd have to memorize them all as a bard.

04:46.85

Darien

Button.

04:55.20

Emily

Um, and so having like repetitive phrases like you might have noticed them even in translations you've read. There's all these like recurring like ah epithets of different characters or even like whole scenes sometimes that are repeated. Um, and that's just because of the way the poems were composed and I think it adds something really cool to the work.

05:00.72

Darien

Um.

05:12.67

Darien

Yes.

05:14.86

Emily

Um, but the odyssey because it has a lot more different like episodes in it like it's not just you know this one war where everyone's sitting in the same place at the same the whole time you know and because there's so much variation in it and there's also like 2 completely different storylines happening.

05:24.80

Darien

Yes.

05:32.39

Emily

Um I think it's It's just better because I think even even the like strongest Iliad Stan at some point is going to be like oh my God another Rris day. Ah okay, like um, you know and reading through the Iliad. Um, and it's also. Because they were never intended to be like red or consumed like all at once. Um, like um in the oral tradition like what would happen is the like a bard would come into town and be like oh hey I'm in this town and this hero is from this town. Let me tell you the part of the Iliad or the odyssey that's about this hero.

05:51.95

Darien

Yeah.

06:08.60

Emily

Or like let me tell you that the time Odysseus fought polyphemus or like let me tell you about the time um like hector fought Achilles. You know like they would always be parts of it.

06:12.56

Darien

Yeah, yeah, and it was and it'd be communal like you wouldn't just be sitting there alone with it. It'd be in a group with an audience reacting. Yeah whoa I Never think about that.

06:24.24

Emily

Yeah, yeah, it would be performed usually with music too. Um.

08:37.31

Darien

Ah, why are you an Iliad person.

08:32.12

Emily

the poetry is just so good like the odyssey is great. There's some really great passages in it. But man the Iliad the poetry of it is just so incredible and I think the story of the Iliad to me is more powerful. Um because the thing about this. The odyssey is. It really like it's also a very powerful story about like Odysseus as a character but the Iliad is really about like mortals wrestling with like all of these huge themes like their relationships with the gods and glory and it just feels so like.

09:25.24

Darien

Um.

09:27.18

Emily

It's so timeless like the odysey is also timeless but the Iliad really feels like thematically like there's a reason why this has been around for so long.

09:36.76

Darien

Yeah I definitely ah in doing just the podcast and like citing passages from the Iliad as like reference to the topics. We've talked about recently some of them are just like so Killer like i.

09:51.99

Emily

You're so good.

09:52.93

Darien

They just hit to even like I really enjoyed the odyssey and on both the translations we have referenced on the show are by Emily Wilson so it's not like oh this translation was just better but damn when Patrocolus like calls out hector when he's dying and he's like no motherfucker you didn't kill me.

10:08.97

Emily

Oh yeah, that's my favorite part I Love that and the other thing that's so cool right? is the exact word that again I bring up like type scenes. So the exact wording and description of patroclus dying is that like stanza is like.

10:10.64

Darien

My boyfriend's going to kill you like that chills chills. It's so good.

10:12.39

This work.

10:22.54

Darien

Button.

10:26.41

Emily

The exact same description of hector dying like it's that it's just like there's so many cool connections that are just so good. Um, like we call that the death of the hero and like that description and of itself is my favorite passage in the Iliad and it's so pretty like.

10:26.95

Darien

Oh.

10:32.57

Nice.

10:45.32

Emily

It's just like they're just like the the language of homer is what's kind of interesting is the language of homer in many ways like you learn. That's like I should actually if you're studying Greek that's going to be 1 of the first like you know, big boy texts you look at um which might seem kind of strange because usually poetry is always a little bit more difficult to read than prose. Um, but like.

10:54.99

Darien

11:05.30

Emily

Ah, the thing is it's like composed it was composed to like be performed and understood by like a general populace. So it's not like that complex in terms of like the way the sentences are put together. Um.

11:09.22

Darien

Yeah.

11:19.28

Emily

And yet like the ways and like the wording and the descriptions are all just so like Stark but like so creative in the way that it's all, um, put together like you can sort of feel like the epicness of the story. Justin like the way the narrative voice describes it like I just read the Emily Wilson Iliad translation for the first time and you really feel like whenever the narrator is like and then this happened like as you know a thing like you know as you milk. Ah you know this isn't a real line was like as you like as a wolf comes into your flock of sheep at night where it's like clear like you're just.

11:41.89

Darien

Yes.

11:50.28

Darien

So.

11:57.92

Emily

Describing these things that would be unfathomable to the average person in this time like with Lay I just with these kinds of really really cool, extended like metaphors or similes. Um, but like the passage I'm talking about is ah.

12:03.15

Darien

Yeah.

12:15.00

Emily

Um, let me see if I can remember do it for memory I did translate this once upon a time so I use my own translation for but um, it's like he he's so he's he's been chaunting hector and then finally the wounds overpower him and his.

12:17.62

Darien

Ah, that's so cool.

12:34.59

Emily

Last sigh is not only him like exhaling exhaling like his life force out of his body because um, the Greek Word Psuhe um which is psyche means um like life.

12:47.42

Darien

Um.

12:49.75

Emily

Or life's breath or soul like those are sort of 3 different definitions we have for it in english this idea of like the breath is what is sort of generates your life was kind of is kind of a thing in ancient Greek. Um, so it's like you're exhaling out your life force and then at the same time.

12:55.50

Darien

Ah, who.

13:05.83

Um.

13:08.72

Emily

You're also it's a sigh of lament like lamenting your like lost youth your lost like strength. Um, and then it just exhales and then it goes down to Hades like just this beautiful sweeping image that has picks up these dual meaning and descriptions at once and then like it just travels through the line like the soul like it just.

13:12.40

Darien

Oh ah-ha.

13:28.19

Darien

No, that's yeah, that kind of like writing that can do. Both is rich and incredible. Yeah.

13:28.71

Emily

So good. But.

13:32.37

Emily

Yeah, it reading the Iliad in particular taught me a lot about writing because it taught me a lot about how you can use the arrangement of words to also be part of the the language.

13:32.41

Um, oh.

13:47.56

Darien

Button.

13:50.37

Emily

Um, like which words go next to each other and which like you know and you stack a sentence in a way that has a journey like that. Um, like there is that there's like a cool part. That's it's quote it's it's in there a bunch of different times because again, it's repetitive because like poets would just be describing like oh yeah, and then.

13:55.59

Darien

Oh yeah.

14:08.12

Emily

This warrior got up and did this thing. Yeah, yeah, exactly um and like there's a great description that's used all the time where they throw the spear and the spears casting along shadow and then a bunch of other stuff goes on and then it hits and then because in Greek the verb is at the end.

14:09.22

Darien

It's like a fairy tale where they'll say the same. Yeah.

14:16.79

Darien

Yeah.

14:27.51

Emily

So the impact the spear hitting the shield like it's like shivering through the air casting a long shadow and then making impact with the verb which is like he through Pete the spear hits him um and then it like quivers in the shield. It's just like so it's so good.

14:39.97

Darien

Ah.

14:43.55

14:45.63

Darien

Evocative it sounds like yeah.

14:46.79

Emily

Yeah, it's evocative and just like paints this gorgeous like it just paints these really cool like ah most of the descriptions you see as well. Just like like they call a different um I'm like I'm trying to think of a good example like ah. I Can't think of any but they they The descriptions are not like typical adjectives. They're like ones that bring up a completely different aspect of something that's unrelated or like related in a very cool way and just paints like this really fraud beautiful like image of an entire scene.

15:05.47

Darien

Um, okay, um.

15:13.40

Darien

Oh.

15:19.15

Darien

So um I recognize this isn't a good question but I'm going to ask it anyway who wrote this like we homer. Yeah, but like but like it did the thing we have that text that is translated to be the.

15:31.86

Emily

Ah, ah, and m.

15:37.17

Darien

Emily Wilson's translates to the Iliad or whatever we have like what is that and how much weight do we put on it as this is the thing that the bards were actually saying from town to town.

15:47.74

Emily

Yeah, that's a great question. Um, the answer is we will never know but it was probably not one person. Um, so again, like I said it's like from an oral tradition which means generally like bards and poets would.

15:54.67

Darien

Stellar. Yeah.

16:05.45

Emily

Learn either portions or the entirety of these texts effectively memorizing them but like because of the way they're written like I said they can kind of like compose them and piece them together. Um eat in like kind of freestyle if you need to like if you forget a part you'll be like oh and then ah and then swiftfooted Achilles to this I guess.

16:18.88

Darien

Um.

16:24.31

Emily

Um, um, and so um, the current working theory. So the version of Iliad in the odyssey we have now we estimate was written down probably around like a 700 bc um, which would have been during what we call like the dark ages of the archaic period.

16:25.27

Darien

Yep.

16:36.91

Darien

Oh okay, okay.

16:43.77

Darien

Um.

16:44.28

Emily

Um, and that's actually an entire separate topic of like when does this story take place which is really interesting. Yeah, that's that's a separate question though so we won't talk about that yet. Um, but um.

16:50.98

Darien

That Not definitely a question I'm actually going to ask but I'm gonna let Dejay ask? Ah I'm assuming a goofy question. But yeah, yeah, we'll circle back.

16:54.99

Um.

16:58.66

Um I don't have a question.

17:03.75

Emily

So that we know is when it was probably written down and recorded. Um, that being said, ah we know there was several hundred years before this time where it probably was being performed and one of the interesting things about the way it's written is it's actually not written in a specific dialect of Greek.

17:18.13

What the fuck here.

17:20.59

Emily

It's written in a mishmash. It's what we call Homeric Greek because it's like its own completely different style because it takes a few different dialects of Greek and like mashes them together and the kind of working theory on why that is is because there are so many different poets writing different sections.

17:20.89

Darien

Um.

17:25.54

Darien

Oh.

17:38.74

Emily

But that's just kind of what happened um another theory I've yeah and another another another one I've heard another theory or maybe maybe these two can coexist as well is that since it was performed so widely they like put.

17:40.93

Darien

Um, just someone was like I'm gonna compile all my favorites.

17:55.80

Emily

Everything in all of the dialects so that everyone could kind of understand most of it. Um, a.

18:03.13

Darien

Um, it's just like switching switching accents while performing something and yeah.

18:04.97

Emily

Yeah, like switching dialects. It's sort of like mashing up like and.

18:13.73

Um, English Australian and american.

18:15.80

Darien

Um, that'd be a very bold choice.

18:17.32

Emily

Yeah, but it's not even like accents. It's like completely different grammatical forms of the words. Yeah, so it's a little. It's a little bizarre like I feel like it be like Matt it be like if you're switching back and forth between like a a a a half between a a v e in english for example where it's like sometimes the words.

18:20.11

Okay, weird.

18:20.77

Darien

Yeah, so yeah, it's.

18:31.98

Darien

Button.

18:37.40

Emily

Like sometimes they're using the grammar of one and sometimes it's just like.

18:38.97

Yeah.

18:39.11

Darien

Yeah, it feels like if that's the reason it's like when Disney's like we want to make a song for the new millennium. Let's smash everything together and make one song for the world that it as like that's not I don't think that was a real thing. That's not what we did over here. That's probably not it.

18:49.33

Just doesn't work.

18:55.68

Emily

Yeah, ah, it's yeah, it's it's a bit of a mess but it's it's kind of cool and it gives it its own distinct identity. Um and a lot of other of the quote unquote Homeric works like the homeric hymns are called that because they're written in that dialect. Also.

19:00.36

Darien

So.

19:08.97

Darien

Oh okay, that makes sense. Thank you for teaching me why that's a thing I see a lot but don't fully understand why that's a thing didn't let myself go down that rabbit hole.

19:12.33

Emily

Yeah, so Homer's is sort of the the name we have given more to the style than necessarily an author.

19:25.92

Darien

Oh oh.

19:28.40

Emily

Um I think some ancient authors did believe Homer was a real person. There's like a blind barred character in the odyssey that a lot of people like think was homer or something like a self insert. Um I was reading apparently herodotus like. Like oh yeah, Homer was a real person and like went to the oracle of the dona to figure out when the Iliad and the odyssey took place very funny. Um.

19:48.80

Darien

I Love that I Love that information that you've given me I Also love the idea that the ancients were like yeah homer this guy we deeply respect. He did self-insert and that's really cool actually and not something that we should mock so shout out to all.

19:58.79

Emily

Yeah.

20:04.23

Darien

The fanfic writers out there. You know who you are.

20:06.37

Emily

Yeah, it's always existed man. It is always existed. Um, like yeah, there's actually a whole bunch of other texts that are myths surrounding the Trojan war that are not homeric epics.

20:12.23

Darien

Um, it's the way humans tell stories.

20:22.27

Darien

Yeah, um.

20:23.12

Emily

That um, also would have been existing at this time. Um and continue to exist throughout antiquity. 1 of the really frustrating things about studying classics is there are so many things that like we know for a fact this text existed and we know for. Fact it probably even lasted like all the way through the Roman Empire but we don't have it so people will just like quote it or like cite it. So we'll have like quotes of it. Yeah.

20:43.10

Darien

No I'm so ah yeah, so we know it's real. But we've talked yeah, that's come up something we talked about before where it's like all right? So we know this thing definitely existed because other people talked about it. No what? what? it actually said I have no idea but we're going to talk about Prometheus for a little bit so bear with me.

21:00.36

Emily

Yeah, and some of them like there's reasons why they don't exist in others. It's just like you know, just bad luck.

Darien

Yeah. Okay, so you mentioned that there were other works about the Trojan war outside of like the homeric stuff is that where we get the story of Achilles having to be disguised as a woman to try to get out of the war and then dying with an arrow shot because I.

24:00.71

Emily

Yet.

24:11.46

Darien

Ah, shocked to learn that that arrow thing is not in the Iliad when I realized I'm like that's the we. That's the first thing I learned about Achilles is he had a bad heal and yet you're going to tell me that that's not in the book that I thought was about Achilles. No because it's not about Achilles. Actually.

24:12.19

Emily

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, got the hill.

24:19.27

Um, yeah, yeah.

24:27.94

Emily

Yeah I'd have to um, double check I think that's one of the other texts. Although I'm not 100% sure that that particular one of him like like it meant it's mentioned that he's got a son in the Iliad. That's a thing. Um.

24:37.49

Darien

Yeah.

24:40.75

Emily

But that that particular story of him disguising himself as a woman might have been Roman I'm not 100% on that though I hope it how dare you besmirch the name of ovid how dare you? Why is he a hag.

24:45.32

Darien

Oh was it ovid the hack. That's my running gag I have no reason to do it.

24:53.20

Staring does not like Oman.

24:57.20

Darien

I think he took a lot of things that were greek and then added some bullshit to it I'm looking at you Medusa.

25:07.45

Emily

I Mean his book is called the metamorphosis like he was working on a theme.

25:12.50

I know I'm changing the stories.

25:14.48

Darien

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, it's fine. It's fine. But also I think a couple of her stories are just really similar to earlier things he had written in the same thing anyway I Just it's my running.

25:20.94

But that's kind of like calling out the joke and then doing the joke. Anyway, you know.

25:26.69

Emily

Well I will say for indefensive ovid. First of all.

25:31.29

Darien

And you were the first one to defend ovid because you know more than me everyone else just lets me call him a hack and we keep rolling I made a mistake.

25:38.70

Emily

Listen I call Virgil a hack and I mean it. Um, um so the thing about ovid was he's actually 1 of the reasons we have some of those my in the first place so him him regurge.

25:52.26

Darien

Oh God Damn it. But.

25:56.30

Emily

Unk stories. Well yes, probably is true is actually the reason why we even have them in the first place for some of them so that's good. Um, also like again I get into the poetry of it all but Roman poetry like generally is just not good. Especially Roman Epic poetry

26:02.55

Understandable.

26:15.24

Emily

Because it's bad. It's just bad like some of it's good, but the thing is what happened was well. That's the thing it's of it of is actually good um of it.

26:15.82

Darien

I'm so happy right now.

26:21.46

Darien

I could see in your eyes like you were trying to think of an example that is good and then you're just like I'm going to move on. Oh damn it I'm taking all this is going to the Patreon. No one else is going to hear this I am defending myself I will continue my bit. No.

26:32.62

Emily

Actually well written and good.

26:37.72

Emily

Ah, um, so this is actually ties back to the Iliad though because most upper class romans most ever class romans ah were educated a lot of them would get sent to get educated in Greece because at the time especially in the time of the republic and late republic they thought that like the Greeks.

26:40.60

Darien

I'll probably stop. Oh no I have to leave it in.

26:56.53

Emily

Sort of had a more of a handle on that kind of thing so they'd send their kids off and so they'd learn Greek and latin and what kind of ended up happening was the greek literature like the elliad and the odyssey were held up as like some of like really like the best works of literature by the romans. So. What they actually did was they started to model their epic poetry off of the Greek specifically they modeled their meter off of the Greek Meter um doacty caxaeter which is what the out here are written in. Um, if that's a big crazy word. It's like iambic pentameter right is like.

27:34.26

Darien

Button.

27:34.71

Emily

A pentameter five meters of I Ams which are the stress unstressed dactyicameter. It's the same kind of word six feet and it's dactyls. So it's a long short short or there'll be sponies of long long. Um, the thing is that like that's the Greek Meter

27:45.70

Darien

Ah.

27:53.62

Emily

Um, so that'd be like writing French and iambic pentameter like it just like you can do it and like but it is it gonna be that amazing unless you're like really good.

27:59.49

Darien

But should you.

28:05.61

Darien

Yeah, yeah.

28:09.99

Emily

Um, there's like other latin muters like Saturnian that are way better like you read stuff and but like no one writes in them because they're like I know I'm gonna be like the greeks andnna be like like homer which is an ongoing theme for the rest of western civilization. Um, and but.

28:15.39

Darien

I gotta be like yeah.

28:23.30

So this is this.

28:26.39

Emily

Everyone's like oh my god I'm just like I'm just like Achilles I'm just like the alien in the odyssey. Ah, that's a recurring theme. Um, but ah yeah, so Ovi is one of the few I've seen who actually be able to pull it off versus like Virgil now. Um.

28:31.29

Darien

Yep, yeah.

28:42.51

Darien

All right? So this is a formal apology to ovid I'm sorry I said it once thought it was funny and kept saying it. Um Emily can I call Virgil a hack I feel like I need this though. Thank you? great.

28:49.12

Emily

Yeah I call Virgil a hack literally every episode of monster donut I hate that man.

28:57.25

Darien

Cool co cool. We should circle back I'm gonna ask I'm gonna ask you specifically about it when I'm on tyrants tomb on Sunday just completely derail and be like why do we hate Virgil educate me but we can't do that here. So.

29:06.43

Emily

Um, I mean that's like the main thing is it's that also like Aeneas sucks. But anyway.

29:11.58

Darien

And these does suck I don't care for him. Ok, but here. So ah so what? So what? I'm hearing is ah the things about Achilles that are not from the aliad and or maybe from the romans.

29:24.14

Emily

Yeah, or the um and again we also like don't know we we have some idea but not a complete idea of the of the other stories the romans and the greeks would have had access to right? So even if it's like a roman wrote it down for the first time that's not necessarily.

29:32.93

Darien

Oh.

29:40.23

Emily

Even the first time it was written down. It's just like what we have you know like it's sort of like ah anyone's guess and kind of a puzzle. It's why we know like for example, there's like different versions of different myths and there's like a lot of that we just know that we've lost so much. Basically so we kind of have to work off.

29:42.37

Darien

Mm bet. Okay, yeah, that makes sense.

29:56.88

Emily

Our best guess is as to like what the most original versions of things are like what we have and yeah.

30:03.46

Darien

Okay, okay, ah I have 1 more question that's a more like a broad putting context to the Iliad as the thing that exists in our world and history before I think we pivot into the Iliad itself as a story.

30:15.90

Emily

And.

30:20.22

Darien

What did this mean to people when they were hearing it like was it history was it fantasy was it I read I saw something somewhere that was like they were written the Alienlia and the Odyssey these stories were written to try to explain a civilization that the greeks didn't. Have anymore but had artifacts about did I hear that from you maybe yeah, interesting. Okay, yeah, So what's the deal.

30:43.42

Emily

It's definitely possible that was for me because that is true. So I think like what did they get out of it is sort of the same question as like when does a story take place and who is it about? um but the short version is um I mean for the average.

30:52.87

Darien

Okay.

31:00.43

Emily

Person in Archaic Greece who would have been hearing a bard sing about it. They're hearing a story about you know their kinsman they're hearing a story about a time of heroes. It's like the myths you know they're like oh but but I but the myths not in an abstract sense but the myth of like yeah these people like there's a part in theliad that's called the catalog of ships.

31:09.16

Darien

So.

31:18.93

Emily

Um, but if anyone has tried to read the Iliad you'll know what I'm talking about because that's usually a part where I feel like a lot of people might put it down because it's a very extended list of all of these names and peoples and places. Um I and I feel like I've yeah exactly and it's just um.

31:23.30

Are.

31:26.43

Darien

Ah.

31:31.31

Darien

Oh my God It's like the book of genesis.

31:38.29

Emily

Like again the purpose of the catalog of ships is like if you're telling the story in a room you could be like and then this guy was there from here you know or like these these are the peoples of your forefathers. Um, and 1 thing that is really interesting about the catalog of ships is that that's a big piece of evidence.

31:44.00

Darien

Here The go.

31:56.61

Emily

To point to who the Iliad is about because um, as far as we can tell that actually corresponds to a pre like a bronze age um like a political breakdown of Greece.

32:09.23

Darien

Oh.

32:12.12

Emily

As opposed to a later one with like archaic or classical. Um I think I should for those who are not familiar. There's different periods. Yeah, there's different periods of time in the odyssey would have been written down in like 800 bc that's um, like archaic period.

32:21.21

Darien

Vocabs. Yep, no, that's great, please please that's something we yeah.

32:30.94

Emily

That's because basically what there's a big cataclysmic event that we call the bronze age collapse now it happened over a period of several hundred years um and was definitely not like 1 major event but most people yeah it was a series.

32:40.27

Darien

Um, an asteroid didn't strike the area and kill everyone like this was just a.

32:51.37

Emily

Cataclysmic events that happened that created there was basically this huge thriving trade network in the Mediterranean that was done. It's ancient egyptians the cypriot people. Um the hits heights in turkey modernday turkey um, you know like Greece and a bunch of other peoples were all kind of in this really. Rich thriving trade network and a series of cataclysmic things happened that caused that entire infrastructure to collapse and that's why we called it dark ages because they sort of all lost contact There was a bit of a regression in technology. Um and out of that darkness.

33:22.48

Darien

Um.

33:28.30

Emily

Out of that sort of dark ages and that that one we we date it to around like 121100 bc um, which for context to anybody socrates this like 400 bc remember counting backwards so this is like a long time before Socrates.

33:38.71

Darien

O. Yeah, like 800 years

33:46.23

Emily

Um, yeah, just about um and so that dark ages that kind of came out afterwards are sort of like the middle ages right? or the Roman Empire collapsed and there's like a bunch like we lost all of these connections and trade networks people kind of regressed and then we kind of came out of it so the same thing. Um.

33:49.12

Um.

33:53.94

Um, and.

34:00.14

Darien

Yeah.

34:05.33

Emily

And then the classical period in Greece is around like 400 bc and that's when we kind of get to like what we think of ancient greece that's the period like you're thinking like Athens and Sparta that's it. Yeah yes, so um.

34:10.21

Darien

Yeah. But yeah, but that's that's not the period where these stories were created or even like set.

34:25.33

Emily

Stories we think were created around that like 1100 to 800 period um although they might have been started earlier. We're not we just don't know. Um, but we do. We are pretty sure they are set in the mycenean period which would have been around like maybe 1200 Bc

34:29.67

Darien

Who.

34:44.64

Emily

Could have been earlier than that I would guess they're set later just because the whole if you take the in the oyssey together it sort of feels like the epic culmination of this like age of Heroes and mythology and it does sort of feel like a society on the brink of.

34:48.69

Darien

Why would? yeah.

34:57.17

Darien

Button. Yeah, things don't feel like they're going to like even it's like oh they won the war and just he has officially got home and it's like yeah but doesn't this feel like things aren't good like the last moments of like hey it worked out and you're just like but at what cost.

35:02.94

Emily

Collapse.

35:14.97

Emily

Yeah, yeah, like by the end of the odyssey almost all of the great leaders in the Iliad are just dead like Odysseus is alive and like menelleas and that's it like everyone else is gone.

35:21.44

Darien

Did it really.

35:28.16

Darien

Yeah, and that and really meaas we're going to say menaas is the guy we were like yeah you you and your wife Helen um I'm going to name her by name. Obviously it's Helen. Yeah.

35:34.62

Emily

Yeah, um, and I saw a joke. When um Avengers like was it end game or something came out where someone was like the great the most epic crossover event in history and someone like reposted that meme but it was like with the Iliad and it's just like very accurate like ah.

35:43.30

Darien

So.

35:53.96

Um.

35:57.13

Darien

Um.

35:58.73

Emily

Like taking all these characters from these stories or like sons of characters from this like great Miss stories and they mashing them all together like that's what it is. It feels like this culmination of like all of this stuff and being like yeah this is like the height of this This is the climax. Um.

36:00.91

Darien

Yes, to do.

36:12.22

Darien

And then it all went down the hill from here just like the Marvel cinematic universe please note we are recording this before we are going to see the marvels which I hope is good I need it to be good.

36:22.13

Yeah.

Darien

Okay, so that's I'm sure we could do a many many many many many many hours on just trying to grasp. Ah so you trying to teach us any sort of actual grasp.

38:31.27

Emily

Yeah, this is what I'm saying I talk a lot I have a lot to say.

38:33.23

Darien

Context of this as a thing that exists now good and also because I also every time you say a thing I'm like oh here's another question I Want to ask about like this. Not even as but we do which is story. But as thing that exists as a culture and a physical thing but we need to talk about story. Ah yes play.

38:41.80

Emily

Um.

38:50.70

Emily

Um, I will say one last thing though that I should taught this just because it is one of the coolest pieces of information ever and it makes me like freak out every time and I think it's also important it's It's kind of sheds a cool light on a lot of the Iliad. Um is also. Like again we think this was written about a period of time Mycenean Era that was would have been gone by the time the whole culture and civilizations. They would have been gone by the time the poems the poets are composing these stories. But I think something we might forget living so far.

39:16.95

Darien

Um, yeah.

39:25.61

Emily

Forward from there is that while they didn't have those civilizations around them thriving what they did have were their ruins So I have something I noticed again on my reread of the Iliad like recently was just how much of.

39:33.34

Darien

Oh.

39:43.43

Emily

Like time is spent into talking about the objects and the things they have because they would have been able to go to the citade like the citadel of Myce is still there. Um, like you could still go there and they would have been able to go to the citadel. Well we call it a megaron. Well I'll say Citadel of mycei.

39:56.57

Darien

Um.

39:59.52

Darien

15 Yes.

40:02.85

Emily

And like just walk around it like it just abandoned empty like ghost of a palace like kind of like you'll see like yeah and then they would have like wall paintings on the walls and they would have like you know, discarded objects everywhere. They would have like the Shields the helmets like.

40:08.60

Darien

That's so cool and spooky.

40:20.84

Emily

There is so much there that like the average Greek person would have been able to interact with like you know if you even if you live in a village like maybe there's like a random like mycenian like palace down the you know up a hill or something that you could go climb up and that is something that is kind of also important to keep in mind.

40:34.32

Darien

Ah.

40:37.99

Darien

So.

40:39.84

Emily

Think when like thinking about the the oyssey is cultural elements because it's not just a cultural memory of stories. There's also like a tactile element to it.

40:46.76

Darien

Yeah, and you mentioned that like technology regressed during the dark ages and things would the things I would have been seeing were things that they couldn't have necessarily recreated themselves at that time.

40:58.57

Emily

Yeah, for some of them. Um I think there's definitely a memory of a more technologically advanced time. Um, so like the myth of advanced Atlantis we think was based on um the cretan the minoan. Um, ah we we think was based on Santorini specifically like the minoan stronghold at thera.

41:05.50

Darien

Um.

41:16.23

Darien

Ah.

41:17.17

Emily

Um, which and by the way if you're ever on Santorini an underrated archeological site is arotiri which is like Pompei but like bronze age Pompei. So it's like volcanic eruption buried an entire city but like in like 1600 Bc

41:26.12

Darien

Oh.

41:35.50

Um, that's awesome.

41:35.96

Darien

That's really cool. Why do we only talk about pompei. Okay, we can't wait. Can't get into that right now. Not what this episode is about.

41:37.10

Emily

It's sick. Um, you can like walk around it. Well, that's Fine. Um, but um, yeah, So we think like the cultural memory of Atlantis that civilization comes from that. Um, and. Um, So there's definitely like elements of it that we see um but also the thing with the Iid and the odyssey is again. Most of them are composed and written by people not living in that time. So There's a lot of elements of technology. They might have like seen but not really known what it was or how it worked um which is another reason why we know.

42:05.70

Darien

Oh.

42:12.25

Emily

That it wasn't written in those times. Um, because there are certain ways like chariots are described being used in battle where you're like that's not how chariots work in battle. Um, yeah are certain things where it's like that's that's not how that works.

42:14.85

Darien

Mm.

42:20.40

Darien

No like no no wrong.

42:29.31

Emily

Like that's not really how that would go. This is more of a reflection of the society in which it's being told not the one it would have been before. Um.

42:34.63

Darien

Ah, not what it was being. It'd be like if someone was trying to write world war two a story about oral or 2 but had no idea how any of the weapons actually worked and just had the the things that were there.

42:47.74

Emily

Yeah, more like.

42:51.10

Darien

I use world war two because it's a war not necessarily like there was a war and love the trojan war being real but just that's where my brain was at hey did the Trojan Roar actually happen hey was Troy real. Where's the wall at Emily.

42:56.38

Emily

Yeah.

43:01.86

Emily

Um, great question. There is an archeological site. We have found that we think might have been Troy but um I'm again I keep saying we like I was there. Um.

43:16.61

Darien

We you get to speak for the classic scholar ish is.

43:20.25

Emily

Yeah, so it's in turkey um, and there is the thing is the guy that discovered his name is Heinrich Schlieman he was kind of terrible. He's a german archeologist and this is back in like the wild west of archeology where basically there were a bunch of people in the.

43:32.32

Darien

Um.

43:39.20

Emily

A mid to late eighteen hundreds into even like the 1920 s where they would. They were just like basically gentlemen like they're independently wealthy aristocrats from ah particularly like France England Germany where they'd grown up learning the classics and they were like hey I've got all this money. What if I just like went to Greece and started digging. And the government at the time were like sure. Yeah you'renna pay me a lot of money. Sure whatever and so they'd go in and they'd be like oh my god well obviously the Iliads the lowest layer and so what Heimer Schliman did was he was like let me the me dynamite down to the first layer of this site. We found that they think is Troy.

44:34.79

Darien

You told me this story when I was in New York and I'm still so distressed to hear it.

44:35.20

Emily

And yeah and he like found all of these like precious He found all this like jewelry and stuff and he was like oh my God The treasure of priam that they would call it all this shit. It's deranged and then no like act.

44:38.51

That.

44:46.60

Darien

Yeah.

44:50.39

It's the treasure of Helen it's what she wore.

44:52.19

Darien

Yeah, wait wait wait for this part.

44:53.36

Emily

Like if you go anyways, he he so he covered his There's a picture if you if you look up if you look him up I think it's even on the Wikipedia page if you look him up. There's a picture of his wife at the time who was like a 16 year old blonde Greek woman. He found named Helen and he was like oh my god like it's bad. it's like bad um it's bad ah he he like covered her in this jewelry and took a picture first I guess it must have been in like the early nineteen like 1920 s okay, um, yeah and he was like oh my god we found the treasure of Priam we have now since dated that and we think that was like for that was like dated's like 1000 years pre

45:12.75

Ah, holy fuck.

45:18.73

Stranger than fiction.

45:30.65

Darien

Oh Wow! yes.

45:31.70

Emily

1 the Trejan war would have happened that jewelry so he dynammited actual Troy which is great. Um.

45:31.75

Um, what's not ah.

45:36.80

Darien

Um, that's so upsetting. Okay I found the picture. Um, yeah now Oh no, everything is bad.

45:48.88

Emily

Ah, it's it's not good. It's not good. Um, but ah yeah, if you ever want to get ah upset look look up what sir Arthur Evans did to kenosis on crete.

46:03.62

Darien

Yeah, actually when we did our um minus episode I did fall into that rabbit hole and I'm like I got to put a pin in this because I'm about to lose my mind and we're about to start recording I can't keep digging but I'm freaking out but the Iliad.

46:05.74

Emily

Okay.

46:13.25

Um.

46:14.60

Emily

It's absolutely bananas. Um, but this is it's part. This is also part of a greater like honestly having recognizing all this so is important in I think the field of classics and archeology because they as fields of study have existed for a really long time. But.

46:26.44

Darien

Ah.

46:31.75

Emily

A lot of them are sort of founded on the opinions of old white aristocratic men who were just fucking around and being like oh my God They were just like us so you have to kind of.

46:35.81

Darien

Yes.

46:41.36

Darien

Interesting.

46:46.23

Emily

Really start to see where a lot of like especially like British Empire Imperialism yeah you it's so it's it's really important to start to unpack a lot of the biases they brought into their research. Um, yeah.

46:48.80

Oh my God He just like me for real.

46:52.88

Darien

Hashtag It me. Okay.

46:59.56

Darien

Button.

47:01.49

Wonderful.

47:05.35

Emily

Which is always fun. Um, but um, the plus site is that work is happening now. So what shiley which is great. Um, but ah, yeah, anyway, so that's the site we think might have been Troy and they did find evidence.

47:05.42

Darien

Button.

47:13.63

Darien

Yay! yes.

47:22.59

Emily

A battle that would correspond in the dating they found evidence of like the city being destroyed. So they we think there was maybe a war um were all of these dudes there who's to say.

49:18.70

Darien

Who's who's still a homer apparently all right? DJ, you should go first. What questions you have for Emily about the Iliad.

49:34.96

Um, who's your favorite character.

49:37.10

Darien

Oh.

49:38.65

Emily

Ah, oh that's it if you mean character in terms of like who do I like the best.

49:44.85

Um, yeah I mean yeah, that's that's generally what the question entails. Well when I say favorite I mean like.

49:47.38

Darien

Well no, no, no, you can have who I like the best and then who I think is the most interesting character. Oh.

49:50.14

Emily

Well yeah, this is a problem I've run into on monster donut where phoebe and I our favorite one of our favorite characters is Luke but that doesn't mean we like him it just means we find him really interesting.

50:00.73

I Guess that's fair.

50:01.91

Darien

Um, both then that apply apply your definition of well dj's definition. A favorite is whoms. 1 likes the best. So let's that's his so.

50:11.21

Typically.

50:11.47

Emily

I think Hector is my favorite.

50:14.80

Darien

Oh man I'm so sorry, not no, not that I'm sorry that you like Hector I'm sorry for what happens to hector. That's really, that's a bummer.

50:14.91

No understandable.

50:22.89

Emily

Yeah I mean and as far as like most interesting character I think Achilles obviously is the most interesting character by like hector. He's also very in it. He's a very interesting character. Um, and I feel like a lot of people don't portray him.

50:26.33

Darien

Yes.

50:28.65

Um.

50:39.45

Emily

The way I feel like is the best because I think so one of the really interesting things about the Iliad that really sets it apart from other texts including the Odyssey is the fact that there like aren't good guys and bad guys in it which is crazy considering how old it is because I feel like.

50:41.20

Darien

So.

50:52.65

Yeah.

50:56.33

Darien

Um, yeah.

50:58.82

Emily

A lot of the time when we see epic poems and stuff. There's always like a definitive evil definitive monster and the ilia and I think one of the reasons why it's so timeless is is just isn't one. There's no like like because in reality the people who would have lived at Troy would not have spoken greek.

51:13.31

Darien

Yeah.

51:14.46

Um, yeah.

51:15.57

Emily

They were probably indo-european which meant they probably would have worshipped similar gods and been enveloped in a very similar Mediterranean Trade Network they would have all been connected. Um because we think Troy would have been siturated right around the entrance to the black sea from the Mediterranean which would have been a really important trading port. But um.

51:27.57

Darien

So.

51:35.10

Emily

Like they wouldn't have they would have been foreigners to the greeks at this time and yet in the Iliad. They are not depicted as other um which is really interesting and in that way, It's just I feel like hector is a character is such an interesting character.

51:37.82

Darien

Oh.

51:44.50

Darien

Who.

51:53.88

Emily

Because in so many ways he is sort of the ideal like he is especially as a modern audience person like he like genuinely cares and has heart for like the women in his life as children like he's a very like well-rounded caring, very empathetic person. Who he's not like making war for no reason like he's protecting his city like he has like the purest motives of almost any character. Um, and um, it's really interesting and also in the ilia. The other interesting thing about him is it. It kind of.

52:11.72

Darien

Oh. Hu.

52:30.32

Emily

And goes because the way the Iliad is written. It's written for a greek audience but there is a version of the story in which you can portray both hector and like Achilles Agamemnon Menelaus as um, all of them equally feeling as though. They are the ones ordained by the gods to be the winners in this conflict like they're the ordained heroes of this conflict. Um, and I think that is ultimately Hector's doom is he thinks he's the main character. Um.

52:51.36

Darien

Ah.

52:56.33

Certificate.

52:56.73

Darien

Ah, Hector I'm so sorry you don't have that plot armor.

53:01.54

Emily

And then yeah and then he and then the his tragedy is realizing he hasn't like there's all this talk of fate and death. There's all this talk of fate in it and there he says something really interesting when he kills Patrocklus or faroah's base leg Achilles is coming for you after you're you're goingnna die because of this thing you did and he's like who's to say.

53:06.92

Darien

That's really sad, but.

53:17.60

Darien

53:21.30

Emily

Who is to say like he is the one that's really questioning fate throughout the piece. Um, and I don't know he just a cool he he's just a good guy. Hector Tm is sort of my like um thing and then the scene between him and his wife at the beginning of the Iliad is also just so touching and like it's just such a good like.

53:24.99

Darien

Who? ah.

53:41.25

Emily

You know you just like really establish him outside of war in a way that you don't really see the other characters established.

53:45.00

Darien

No, and that's I think really interesting. That's like Hector feels like he should be the hero of the piece especially when you're like well it's like oh we have like Agamemnon who is.

53:52.80

Emily

Yeah.

53:59.59

Darien

The worse and then Achilles who's like is supposed to be like our hero question Mark question Mark but he also literally tells his mom a goddess to go tell Zeus to let his people start to lose because he's got beef with Agamemnon and his pride got wounded and Hector's over here just trying to keep. Everyone in his city from being slaughtered and like all the women and children from being like taken as slaves and yet he dies and gets his body dragged around the walls of the city. He sought to protect because Achilles let his boyfriend use his armor to try to.

54:17.10

Emily

Yeah.

54:30.68

Emily

Yeah.

54:33.68

Darien

Scare the trojans and then Zeus Scott patroclus to go farther back to the walls. What does that say about this piece like when that happens like what is how do you I guess that that that what happens to hector when he feels like he's.

54:45.15

Emily

Which part m.

54:52.20

Darien

Maybe like you said like good guy hector like what is in the context of the it just seems so upsetting in the conscious of the kind of stories that we hear in like the Us are used to getting but what would that have maybe felt like for someone in this era who's hearing this story like would that have been so. Distressing or would that have been like that par for the course is what the gods wanted sorry man.

55:12.22

Emily

Yeah I mean the the people listening to it would have been rooting for the greeks. Ah um, they would have been rooting for the greeks they would have probably also been pretty familiar with the story of Achilles. So I feel like this almost is like a bit of a subversion in that. Um.

55:16.17

Darien

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no yeah.

55:29.87

Emily

And Emily Wilson's like introduction to her translation. She has talked she said something kind of interesting about this where um she is talking about how like almost everybody who would have been listening would have already known this story. Um.

55:43.54

Darien

But.

55:46.13

Emily

But that the Iliad in particular and why she as a translator really feels compelled by it is. It's the narrative of it is so like even if you know how it's gonna go. It's so like it really tricks you sometimes like it really like it. It's sort of like um I think almost.

55:58.32

Darien

56:04.81

Darien

I was about to say hadestown.

56:04.98

Emily

And way like Hades town is too where it just like yeah where it really like again, you just every time you hear it. You know you you hit a certain point where you're like how is this going to go the way I know it's going to go. There's no way.

56:08.81

Um.

56:16.92

Darien

Yeah, why won't it go different. Yeah.

56:20.74

Emily

Yeah, and I think it does such a good job of like creating all of this drama creating all of the stuff that's going to keep you on the edge of your seat Even if you know how it ends um and um so I feel like I got I lost your question. Ah.

56:29.88

Darien

Um.

56:35.90

Darien

No I think no I think you did explain it where it's like they know how it ends and it's like they're rooting for the greeks and just like the nature's like it doesn't phase them necessarily for it to be this way. This is just the way it is but it's still a story worth telling if you and if you know the ending.

56:35.95

Are.

56:52.46

Emily

Yeah, and also the greatest theme of the Iliad in my opinion is because the thing about the story in and of itself is it's not about a glorious war. It's not about a triumph you know it it would it. You know if.

56:54.26

Darien

Because of the complex characters because of the way it goes.

57:08.84

Darien

Uhu.

57:10.42

Emily

I Think a lot of people you mentioned this. It's It's a lot of people have a very different idea of what's actually in the Iliad than what is actually the story. Um.

57:17.41

Darien

Um.

57:21.25

Emily

You know like the movie Troy for example, it takes the Iliad story but it puts a spin on it I think it gives it a much more um, like modern like contemporary to us narrative where there's a beginning a middle and an end and those are based around plot events right? So that begins with the abduction of Helen and the start of the war.

57:21.62

Darien

So.

57:28.44

Darien

And.

57:38.28

Darien

57:40.93

Emily

Um, the middle is the war and that it ends with the sacking of Troy and I think a lot of people because to us. That's how we tell stories now that's our idea of what a story is so we wouldn't assume that it would be any different in the text. Um, but actually.

57:47.28

Darien

Yeah.

57:59.62

Emily

The Iliad itself is not really a story about a war. It's a story about all of these characters trying to earn glory for themselves in a world in which they all know they will die and be forgotten.

58:09.77

Darien

Um.

58:12.17

Darien

Oh.

58:14.56

Emily

So in a way It's sort of them struggling for the only version of immortality they can get which is fame you know people still saying your name however later and that's why fame glory and all of that is so important to all of the characters.

58:25.12

Darien

Um.

58:30.61

Darien

He it's the only way to essentially escape death that they know is coming for them when you have Achilles who knows from the jump that when Hector dies you're gonna die next like that is the prophecy that they're all playing under and everyone's got that.

58:33.50

Emily

Yeah.

58:43.29

Emily

Yeah, and Achilles I think to an ancient Greek would still be a very extreme example of that. Um, but everything in glory is tied to you. It's like it's not just you know doing a great deed. It's also like the um you know the spoils of war you win so like.

58:50.76

Darien

Um.

58:59.12

Darien

Yeah, yeah.

59:02.17

Emily

All of the the prizes he gets and all of that stuff. You know that is all part of it. So there's a reason why he's so furious that Agamemnon would take you know part of the prizes he's won um and it's it's a deep existential threat to him because he has a character kind of represents this need for that.

59:14.16

Darien

Hmm.

59:22.14

Emily

Um, and that's why like it's such a big deal. It's not just like about like persaes. It's about the deep existential threat of like taking the glory. He's earned himself which to him is a matter of life and death like living forever.

59:30.46

Darien

Yeah, taking memory. Yeah, okay, well those were literally my next 2 questions which is is the Iliad actually about the trojan war and what was Achilles actually so upset about dejay your turn I have to think again.

59:38.96

Emily

The.

59:46.55

Emily

So sorry I love talking about the Iliad I think about it all the time. This is my real Roman Empire

59:48.49

Darien

Emily's really good at this. It's so good.

59:59.80

Um, going to seem like a cop up but what's your favorite scene in the Iliad.

01:00:00.59

Darien

Oh.

01:00:02.87

Emily

Oh I mean I think I already answered this fight I Do think that the the sequence of the death of patroclus and then the death of hector. Um, but I also really like.

01:00:11.26

Ah.

01:00:17.67

Emily

Say I really like the scene at the beginning with Helen um, because I think because depending on the translator especially and depending on your read. It's it's a completely different scene. Um, because she's written.

01:00:32.14

Um.

01:00:35.81

Emily

In a way. There's there's sort of this deep inherent tragedy in her character and what's going on and like again, let's not like her name Helen like the hellenes are the greeks. That's how you say Greek in Greek um.

01:00:52.23

Interesting.

01:00:54.21

Darien

So she's literally Greek she's supposed to represent this culture of greece.

01:00:55.40

Emily

So there's some. There's a bit there of like yeah yeah, she's definitely kind of a symbolic character but there's this really interesting scene where she um, you know because the trojan war in the stories. Essentially started because of her in that um Paris took her and it's ambiguous if she went willingly or not but it's kind of seems like it wasn't willing and yet she's sort of consigned to it because it was the will of a god um.

01:01:14.65

Darien

Who.

01:01:33.80

Emily

Like she's not sitting there pining for Menelaus but she's also not really happy to be with Harris Paris either um and so she's a scene where priam the king of Troy is asking her to like pick out all of these great Greek commanders and she's going through the mall and talking about them and then she talks a little bit about like.

01:01:37.41

Yeah, understandable.

01:01:51.23

Emily

You know how she feels about everything and again, it's just like a very different scene depending on who's writing it and who's reading it and.

01:01:55.68

Darien

Yeah I feel like it'd be really easy for certain translators to bring a bias to their portrayal of Helen.

01:01:58.20

Um, missing.

01:02:05.83

Emily

Yeah, and I will say this scene in the Emily Wilson version I really enjoyed I think a lot of the scenes with the women. Um, so I feel like a lot of translations I've seen a I know right? A g I wonder could it be the first woman translation of the and maybe um.

01:02:05.88

Um, yeah.

01:02:10.93

Darien

I Wonder why I wonder what's different. Yes.

01:02:19.40

Darien

Very wild wild. It took so long. It was came about maybe in 1100 to 800 bc and yet this long.

01:02:28.60

Emily

Yeah but there's an interesting ambiguity in the text where I think it's it's neither and I feel like that makes for a really interesting moment. Um there's also this like deep inherent tragedy in the scene because she's pointing at all these commanders and then she's trying to find her brothers and she can't and she's like oh I wonder where they are. And then in the narrative voice. She doesn't know it says she did not know that they're both already dead like neither them even made it to Troy? yeah, it just like a lot of really, there's just like so it's just you know.

01:02:54.53

Darien

That's so sad I am so sad.

01:03:06.30

Emily

There's just so much inherent tragedy and every like part of the Iliad that really just like creates this tapestry of human experience. Especially human experience and war human experience in this struggle and it's just it just so.

01:03:08.47

Darien

Button.

01:03:21.28

Emily

Sweeping and good it just like creates this like really interest it just like there's so many, really interesting character moments and character studies in it. Um.

01:03:31.80

Darien

That's so good I want us since we brought up Helen I did just want to real quick mention that ah today ah be fitzgerald os author of girl Goddess Queen announced that her second book is going to be a sapphic reimagining of Helen and Cassandra.

01:03:46.18

Nice.

01:03:46.93

Emily

Okay, I'll take it.

01:03:47.83

Darien

During the trojan war and ah, that's just me getting to mention girl Goddess Queen 1 more time this season at the very least my favorite book of the year what up exactly no here for it. Um, but specific so with Helen.

01:03:55.97

Emily

Ah, we love we love Sapphic Helen we love Sapphic everything

01:03:56.61

Um.

01:04:06.51

Darien

Talk about like how she can be a very ambiguous character and that's probably like the intense but so often you've had translators who just outright vilify her and she is often referred to as the woman who caused the trojan war so I want to ask you. Emily who is responsible for the trojan war.

01:04:30.10

Emily

Ah, oh boy. Ah.

01:04:31.59

Um.

01:04:34.51

Emily

It is I mean the thing is it goes so far back I'm trying to even remember I again I literally just reread it. Um I mean the thing with the Trojan War is. There's so many it's it's the gods is what I will say are the cause of it like that's my actual answer.

01:04:34.76

Darien

And why is it Zeus. Ah.

01:04:37.29

Is it. Zeus.

01:04:51.79

Darien

Um, yeah, no yeah.

01:04:51.98

Um, yeah for sure.

01:04:54.60

Emily

But it you just keep moving back and back and back and honestly I think it's an interesting like honestly, it's a good metaphor or like reference for the importance of it's a good, um, an interesting way to think about. How Wars start in general Honestly, it's a good Shorthand touchstone mythological like what's the word I'm looking for and analog what.

01:05:21.42

Darien

Analog sounds right? Archetype no not archetype analog sounds Metaphor Simile Those are not it I'm just saying words now to hopefully jog the correct word analog sounds good to me. Honestly.

01:05:22.75

An analysis.

01:05:26.00

Emily

Of.

01:05:34.74

Emily

Yeah, what's I think it might be analog who's this I don't know um, but it's it's thing where it's Helen's fault if you're zoomed as far in as you can get right? where she.

01:05:35.32

Um.

01:05:40.29

Darien

To say.

01:05:50.24

Emily

Like she went with Paris she Paris and her left on a ship with treasure. Also that was stolen from Menelaus violating guest rights Paris violated guest rights um and took her and the treasure more began because Helen was so beautiful that when she married menelaus.

01:05:57.73

Um.

01:06:05.30

So.

01:06:09.80

Emily

Um, her father feared that anybody who would marry her would immediately be besieged by anyone else who'd wanted to marry her so they forced them all to at every leader in Greece Essentially who wanted to marry her to um, form a pact where if somebody ever claimed Helen. They would all unite and get her back for whoever she picked or whoever ended up marrying her I can't remember how much agency she has in the original myth. Um and chances at marrying Menelaus and then years later Paris ah ah leaves

01:06:36.68

Darien

So I would bet 0 Yeah.

01:06:48.39

Emily

Ah, Sparta with Helen and um, though they all are honor bound to go besiege Troy but with you mad a level right? Paris has violated guess rights Paris maybe stole Helen maybe she didn't go willingly.

01:07:06.51

Emily

Um, but at the end of the day doesn't super matter and in the nation Greek Society A woman were not super fully seen as people so like a um.

01:07:18.12

Darien

But I mean based on the myth of Pandora they might not have been people but they were blamed for everything that went bad.

01:07:24.60

Emily

Oh yeah, for sure they were there. They're the property with a brain dang the mind of their own. Ah and and then use you mad again and it's like well why did Helen.

01:07:27.35

Darien

Oh no.

01:07:41.11

Emily

Why did this even happen. Why did Paris think he could take Helen and then you get the myth of the wedding and heiress with the golden apple and the 3 goddesses and it turns out aphrodite actually promised Helen to Paris despite the fact that she was already married and all of this other stuff was going on and then you can Zoom out again and again you know and there's just all of this stuff. Where like if you're looking at immediate context sometimes individual people or things can seem like they're the real problem but the more use them out the more you realize it's the entire system. That's the problem that created this. Um and I do think.

01:08:13.99

Darien

Oh yeah.

01:08:19.58

Emily

In the Iliad. The spirit of the Iliad is very much a it's It's a it's a mortal war but it's very much a war between the gods and the mortals.

01:08:26.85

Darien

Yeah, we break away to hear the gods like plotting and conniving and talking about like their histories and stuff all the time all the apollo shows up on the battlefield and fucks with Patrocol.

01:08:38.14

Emily

Yeah, yeah, he does.

01:08:41.99

Darien

Hey, there's another question I have how do we and do we speak on this too. We touched on this a little bit in the last episode but we didn't like deep dive into it. Ah here in this very valuable text. Of inspiration for grief mythology and the retellings and the stories we build off of now leaning a little bit into our modern pop culture thing. We actively have not just gods always around but a god literally on the battlefield resulting in the outcome of this like man's life. Why did't we think Rick Riyon decided now the gods can't get involved full splat period.

01:09:18.00

Emily

Well, there's a bit of a feeling of like the God there. There's a moment in the Iliad where a zo sort of forbids the gods from getting involved. Um, it's said before.

01:09:24.42

Darien

Um, was that before or after Patroclus time Apollo What the fuck.

01:09:31.73

Well Apollo's about to try to overthrow Zeus here in the thousand years maybe that happened before I don't know.

01:09:33.66

Emily

As a period like earlier on in the Iliad. This is like no one get involved and then or maybe something the middle try remember? Um, but yeah, it's an interesting question I do feel like um.

01:09:34.80

Darien

That that.

01:09:51.34

Emily

Like is that thing where I'm trying to remember if I got this from Rick like because here's my problem is a lot of like sometimes I'll be sitting here like why do I have this impression of a myth and then I'll realize it's from Ricky Orden ah and then sometimes it's not ah but I do think I do think.

01:10:00.30

Darien

So.

01:10:10.22

Emily

Generally that probably in it I feel like that's probably a product more of how um our societies have evolved to think of gods. Um, because if.

01:10:25.46

Darien

Um, okay.

01:10:27.12

Emily

In the Iliad. The gods are sort of depicted as being ever present and something else. That's kind of interesting about it is not only are they popping in and out all of the time but you know as you might like again I think it's easier to think of them as separate from what they represent in English because we call them by their names. Um, versus a lot of the gods their names are just the thing they represent like dammos and phobos literally just mean like fear and terror you know So you're not saying you're saying like you're not saying like damos and phobos are.

01:10:52.90

Darien

Um.

01:11:00.97

Emily

Running around. You're saying fear and terror running around in in in between all these people you're kind of personifying a lot of the things that gods represent and their emotions and honestly like most of their names are really archaic forms of what they are, um, not all of them but many of them.

01:11:09.60

Darien

Ah.

01:11:19.71

Emily

Um, and so there's this kind of feeling in the Iliad of like the gods are sort of running rampant wherever what they represent is present um versus I feel like more and more as religion became a lot more codified and a little more. Potentially distant. Um as our size developed then we sort of think of them as beings more than necessarily forces if that makes sense.

01:11:40.30

Darien

Um.

01:11:46.92

Darien

Yeah forces. They're just kind of I'm doing a thing with my hands. My our listeners can't see that I'm gonna put my hands down. Yeah forces a vibe thing they're just vibes and everyone's failing the vibe. Check.

01:11:53.66

Emily

Yeah, yeah, but it's like a fluopy of movie vibe thing you know, um, and so I think that contributes to it because I think in our worlds.

01:11:58.61

Um, yeah.

01:12:09.79

Emily

You know we're we're generally coming from. You know the at least in America a pretty overwhelmingly Christian background for most people. But I must say most people but like the way our society is built is definitely built on like christianity in America um, and um.

01:12:21.65

Um, yeah.

01:12:29.36

Emily

And a lot of the west is kind of built on that too because that's just like how the cookie crumbled and um so I think the way we think of God in terms of the Judeo-christian God It's a little bit different than the way the greeks thought of their gods.

01:12:48.29

Emily

Um, in many ways. But I think also there's this idea of god having a lot more agency and forethought than is necessarily true to especially the more old stories of ancient Greek gods. So I think that's part of it and I think also like our relationship to.

01:12:57.67

Darien

Interesting. Yeah.

01:13:07.35

Emily

Gods have changed a lot. Um, for that reason so you see a lot like again I'm Goingnna bring up Troy like there's this whole Monologue Achilles the character Achilles does in the moach troy where he says the god's envy us because we can dag no greek person would believe that there's a lot of. Lines in the lilia in the in the Iliad that are like the opposite of that like the moral characters being like alas I am what I am because I have because I die and because I am not one of the gods. Um, you know there's so many lines in it where they're like the gods don't have to deal with this bullshit because they're gods I wish I didn't have to deal with this bullshit.

01:13:25.95

Darien

Yeah, yeah.

01:13:31.49

Darien

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:13:33.41

Um, yeah, the gods don't want to die.

01:13:41.70

Um, there's stoked.

01:13:43.67

Emily

But I do but I think that speaks to like our modern kind of idea of what gods are and how they are because there's a lot more agnostic people. There's a lot more people for whom religion isn't like part of their worldview necessarily as more of a cultural thing than you know how you think of everything So there's a lot more rejection of that.

01:13:52.57

In.

01:13:53.32

Darien

Flu who.

01:13:57.83

Yeah.

01:14:03.55

Emily

And a lot more embracing of agency. Ah.

01:14:04.62

Darien

Yeah, where it it reminds me of the thing you learn in like middle school social studies when you're learning about ancient Egypt. And it's like oh yeah, there wasn't like a word for religion because that was just so a part of the egyptian culture when you're learning about the myths and stuff and that's the most basic mild mild mild. Yeah middle school social studies way to explain it. But it is I think an element that is difficult.

01:14:21.54

Emily

And.

01:14:27.13

Yeah.

01:14:34.35

Darien

For us here in like the US today to comprehend of these like the gods and these forces being so deeply intrinsically linked almost the same way. You'd think of like gravity or like literally the laws and mechanics of physics.

01:14:45.62

Emily

Oh yeah.

01:14:47.99

Mia.

01:14:52.35

Emily

Yeah I mean my favorite example is the wins. Um, because like you know me study great pathology as a kid. You're like oh my god the wins they have different names and different personalities is that's cute. That's quirky and then I spent a semester in Greece and I remember waking up one day and I look outside and there's just like this.

01:14:52.52

Darien

Is how they were there. Oh.

01:15:01.63

Darien

Yeah, and yeah, yes.

01:15:04.18

Um.

01:15:09.82

Emily

Pink dust just hazing the entire like gathering on people's cars and I was like what is this this is crazy and I've never lived by a desert or anything So there's that but then you know you'd ask people like what's going on. They'd be like oh that's softened and I'd be like what? what do you mean.

01:15:18.93

Darien

Yeah.

01:15:25.41

Darien

And this is just normal for you people.

01:15:28.43

Um, it's not.

01:15:29.15

Emily

South wind and then like cut to like a few weeks later you're like why the fuck is it so cold. This blasts are coming out of nowhere. They're like yes north wind and you're like and it's just like oh my god the winds are real like you know like is that just.

01:15:35.54

Darien

Yeah, yeah, they're just there. Yeah.

01:15:38.23

Um, yeah, yeah.

01:15:44.25

Emily

Like find cute quirky like we gave him personalities for funsies. It's like no if the wind blows from the south in Greece it's going through the sahara so it's hot and it's carrying all the sand with it and that's what the dust is and if it's coming from the north. It's coming from the balkans which are cold as shit and so it's gonna be cold to shit and it's just like.

01:16:01.59

Darien

Yeah, it's like seeing a solar eclipse or like a volcano like the lava dancing in a volcano for the first time when you're just sudden like oh that's what that's what they were seeing. That's what they were interacting with that's what they had no understanding or they couldn't say oh yeah, it's coming from the say hey.

01:16:03.96

Um, interesting.

01:16:04.14

Emily

Oh okay. Yeah.

01:16:13.71

Emily

And then.

01:16:21.42

Darien

And now it's like the end it's coming from the baltic that's cold. It's just no, sometimes it's that way and it's stupid cold and sometimes it's this way and there's sand everywhere I don't know that's just the way it is.

01:16:29.53

Emily

Yeah, that's like you're reading through things is like oh and then Boria blew a sharp gus and you as an ancient greek person be like yeah of course that's the north wind like that's what that feels like yep, that's happened to me.

01:16:38.64

Darien

Um, yeah, got cold. Um, yeah, interesting that Okay, the winds are real. Ah.

01:16:43.50

Emily

That was like 1 of the biggest mind fucks of being in Greece by the way just being like the winds are real.

01:16:52.40

Darien

That's the pull quote I think it's nothing about the eli. Yeah, that's the a capt at the top of the show notes is the winds are real with a little introbang. Ah no I think that's such a interesting that the oh yeah, happened to me.

01:16:58.80

Emily

Yeah.

01:17:01.47

Um.

01:17:09.85

Darien

Being like a response to hearing these stories of like and then apollo you know, smacked him on the head and he's like yeah happen to me I've had that happen son. They just get you sometimes yeah, no, that's not a god getting involved the way we would think about it's not Jesus showing up to like fist to cuffs your uncle or something. It's like yeah no I got.

01:17:15.97

Makes sense I get it.

01:17:17.61

Emily

Yep.

01:17:25.44

Emily

Yeah, have you ever like shot an arrow and then it didn't go where you wanted to go be like man like.

01:17:26.86

Um.

01:17:29.53

Darien

Heat stroke yeah happened to me yeah to me? Yeah, we all it's Hashtag relatable. Ah everything but the Iliad is hashtag relatable. Actually maybe that's the name of the episode the hashtag relatable just not to you.

01:17:36.26

Um, fucking apollo.

01:17:39.45

Emily

Yeah.

01:17:47.15

Emily

And yeah.

01:17:47.47

Um, just not to us.

01:17:48.63

Darien

Except some things are that's what it is some things are the the discrepancy of wanting to like fight for your family or be remembered and sometimes that like selfish desire for your own like. Need for some sort of security in your mortality can override the common good. But then if your common good is wanting to sack a city to get back. This lady who may or may not have left just her husband like why are you? even here I didn't want to marry Helen why am I fighting this.

01:18:20.67

Emily

And that's because you're fighting for glory. You don't You're fighting for the fact that this is gonna be a historic event and you're gonna be a part of it and that's the only way to be remembered.

01:18:34.84

Darien

Ah, yeah, but and that's also so the when we think about just kind of stepping back in like the Iliad as a piece of media. Essentially that was created and composed by people. Would you say that this was reflecting. Beliefs that were already in the culture or was it something that established the beliefs that we see reflected in like that like honor and glory like the Greek Heroes who are the worst people I've ever met in my entire life sometime but are heroes because glory and their story is told.

01:19:14.30

Emily

I Think mostly the former but both ah because so what this is where we get into some cool linguistics stuff a little bit. Um, but which you were like what do you mean? I didn't ask you a question about linguistics. Yes, you did actually um.

01:19:27.47

Darien

Yes I did I did actually yes I totally did we all heard it.

01:19:33.91

Emily

So um, one of the really interesting things about the alien the odyssey is there are some of the oldest written Greek we have um and it's old like um and um, what that means is as soon as you write something down or you codify something in.

01:19:38.84

Darien

Oh.

01:19:52.94

Emily

Ah way that does not naturally change like languages naturally change and evolve. Um, then you have a record not only of the story but like what the language the story was written in was being used at the time and again the other and the Asi are not amazing examples because like I said they're written kind of weird like they're not written in a way people were actually talking. Um, but um, what we do have in them are codified certain poetic devices and I'm saying the word device I Think when you think of a poetic device. You think like simile metaphor like big picture stuff. Um, in this case, it's not so much we call them devices but they're more like a stock phrases.

01:20:32.48

Emily

Um, and so there's a few of them that are in the Iliad. Um, that are actually really important in the Indo-european linguistic field which is the field of study of the languages. Not only of ancient greece but of ah all of the sort of sister branches of.

01:20:46.24

Darien

Um.

01:20:52.38

Emily

Ah, those languages that's latin that's celtic languages german languages um anatolian ak turkey like hittite is one of them. Um, all the way through like sanskrit in India and like ta carion and a bunch of others. Um you see these phrases.

01:20:59.21

Darien

Yes.

01:21:10.87

Emily

Being passed down in a certain specific way. Um, and we see them in different multiple language branches with the sound changes have the languages but not nothing else really changed. So you're able to see like cognate phrases like not just words but like whole phrases.

01:21:27.81

Darien

Button.

01:21:29.97

Emily

And the poetry of these works and we've got a few that we can we know because we see them in both like the rigveta and in which is ah the big sanskrit text and like the Iliad that they had to come from a common source. Um, and one of those is cleos in the Greek one is. In Greek gets Cleos after Theton which means undying glory. Um, but um, there's it has a cognate phrase and sanskrit that we have and others um another one is calling a poet like a weaver of words. So like those kind of.

01:21:52.42

Darien

Ah.

01:21:58.12

Darien

Oh.

01:22:08.81

Emily

Linked ideas another one that's interesting is like he slew the serpent like slaying a serpent like killing a dragon like the dragon slaying myth. That's all like specifically slew that verb as cognate in english with a bunch of others in like Greek for example.

01:22:10.22

Darien

Um.

01:22:13.15

Darien

Yeah.

01:22:20.53

Darien

But.

01:22:28.13

Darien

Um, oh.

01:22:28.57

Emily

Which I can remember off the top of my head but that's in like the hym to Apollo that's also in the baerraonn story um in Greek mythology. Um, so there's a few like things we know we can date all the way back to like Proto and European like which we put proto in front of the word.

01:22:42.25

Darien

Mm.

01:22:46.30

Emily

Be like we know this language probably existed but we have no actual evidence of it existing follow maybe? um and so yeah, so because we know they had to have a common ancestor. We know that that existed so we know that something like an idea like undying glory had to exist.

01:22:48.87

Darien

But probably maybe yeah but.

01:23:05.43

Emily

And a common ancestor between sanskrit and Greek and so we know that poets then were probably talking about this that early on and then this idea encoded in these words in this phrase has been passed down.

01:23:07.10

Darien

Oh yeah.

01:23:13.22

Darien

Yes.

01:23:26.30

Darien

So we just know that that concept is there and has been for a very long time. Um.

01:23:31.74

Emily

Yeah, and is like probably culturally significant to these societies. Um.

01:23:40.63

Darien

Um, digit I'm gonna volley it too. We haven't gotten a question from you for a hot second.

01:23:45.65

Um, because I don't have any questions I'm just learning when asking my favorites.

01:23:48.60

Darien

You've been Asked. No yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but you've been asking like great ones. Yeah I Love that I think that's great. That keeps us grounded a little bit more into like you know.

01:23:56.75

What what? What's your favorite like overarching fact like it doesn't doesn't have to be directly like from this wording of the Iliad like just something you know about the Iliad. It could even just be in the Iliad. Favorite fact about the Iliad.

01:24:11.83

Darien

Oh.

01:24:14.10

Emily

Oh man I what how big do you like small 1 or like.

01:24:17.55

No no like just like over like the Iliad was written in like a cave or just like something that like you know about the Iliad that nobody else knows that you love? Yeah, typically it typically.

01:24:21.70

Darien

The thing you'd be so excited to share with us.

01:24:28.81

Darien

And by nobody else he means us not like you know the people in your field you all know this. But.

01:24:35.33

Emily

Ah o um, that's hard I mean most things are my favorite thing but the Iliad and I love Iliad I was going to say I do have Cleo's athlete's home tattooed on me so that that probably.

01:24:41.20

Darien

Like well you you are an Ill Ed person so I suppose that makes sense.

01:24:43.67

Um.

01:24:50.20

Darien

Yeah, yeah.

01:24:53.10

Emily

That phrase. Um, something else. That's kind of interesting about that particular phrase though is so Achilles is from a place called phthia which is really annoying if you're not used to pronouncing it. But it's spelled PHTH I a yeah it's it's weird you like have to just.

01:25:02.50

Darien

Um.

01:25:05.34

Darien

Yeah I definitely said it wrong in the last episode sorry Gang fithia. Ah phythia cool. All right I didn't move on from that.

01:25:12.10

Emily

Say it and believe that it'll work fiia. Yeah Fearia Fearia sorry Fearia um so Cleos means glorylaos and ah fearia. AhPAPHTH.

01:25:15.29

Um, is here.

01:25:20.94

Um, fear.

01:25:24.28

Darien

Um.

01:25:31.10

Emily

IT o n it's a noun the as the place off Thea so it means un imperishable like offia like so the a in front makes it I a see so Achilles is literally from a place like called like perishable.

01:25:35.10

Are.

01:25:39.90

Darien

Oh ah.

01:25:47.15

Darien

My boy.

01:25:48.52

Emily

Like Achilles is homeland is like the place that will is doomed to wither away forever versus what he is seeking is off. Yeah.

01:25:54.55

Um, imagine naming your town something like that. It's so crazy to me.

01:25:59.69

Darien

That's then that's the kind of thing that if you wrote it in like a creative writing class and turned it into your t-shirt they would say it's 2 on the nose.

01:26:06.77

Emily

Yeah, what's the thing though is like a lot of this stuff is a lot more on the nose than you would think like that's what I mean about the god's names and stuff too like you know you're as an ancient average ancient Greek person. You're not going to have to like look at like a dictionary or at the.

01:26:08.49

Um, she.

01:26:13.41

I Believe it.

01:26:14.75

Darien

Um.

01:26:23.49

Emily

You're not, You're not gonna have to like have a running list of characters. You'll be like oh yeah, that's a metaphor.

01:26:26.47

Darien

I got it I know what that means? Yeah, that's happened to me.

01:26:31.47

Emily

Yeah, um, and yeah I just think that's really and again it really solidifies like the intent of the the work and like what what it's really about like Achilles is. Entire character. He's a larger than life character in a sense that most of his struggle is deeply existential in a way that is maybe not the most quote unquote realistic or grounded but in a way that's very real and like important metaphorically. Um.

01:26:53.68

Darien

Um.

01:27:02.18

Um.

01:27:02.19

Darien

If I call Achilles a Drama King am I right? Thank you? Okay, please continue.

01:27:06.83

Emily

Correct yes, 100 % 100% um another interesting fun fact about the language of the Iliad is a lot of people like so the first word of the Iliad is main is which means sorry main in sin the cu of um which is ah the word for wrath. But specifically divine wrath. Um, it's a word that only gods usually get described with because there's a difference of him being angry and like divine wrath and so a lot of people when they're translating it refer to it as divine wrath but it's it's 1 word in the actual Greek. Um, and that also sets up.

01:27:25.89

Darien

Oh.

01:27:45.70

Emily

Story where where we begin the story with a sentence talking about the divine wrath of Achilles like he is to send he is transcended like mortal emotion.

01:27:55.38

Darien

Um, yeah, ah Emily Wilson translates it aslatic cataclysmic wrath of great Achilles which is a choice.

01:27:59.23

Emily

Yeah, which that's a good one too. Yeah, actually cataclysm. That's a greek word that's from Greek Kata is like a prefixing greek of like against like oh yeah, 100% oh any any translator is gonna have.

01:28:12.42

Darien

Ah, so she she was making a Hashtag choice there. Yeah, that's just not. That's.

01:28:18.94

Emily

To make a decision about how they're going to translate main in um, and and many other she made a few interesting choices for translation. Ah she but.

01:28:20.85

Darien

01:28:29.61

Darien

Any other standout to you any other that you not to say not to you know, create beef between you and Emily Wilson and but like any that ah you thought oh that was maybe not how I would do it.

01:28:38.50

Um.

01:28:40.32

Emily

Um, but I have actually translated some of this so I can say it was different. Um I I don't know I have a lot of thoughts I Really agree with her approach and I I read the introduction and I was like yeah this is I Really agree with the.

01:28:43.59

This What? what? with.

01:28:46.79

Darien

Ah, it's awesome.

01:28:59.64

Emily

How she was thinking about it Honestly, one of my biggest things is I feel like I mean and it's going to be so personal to everybody who reads it but I do feel like in classics generally. Um, there is more of an emphasis placed on accuracy than there is on poetry um like there's a certain cadence to the way you're instructed to translate things when you're learning them purely because the teachers just want to make sure you know like.

01:29:16.63

Darien

Interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

01:29:28.22

Emily

You you're doing the right grammar like you don't just get lucky because english grammar and Greek grammar are so different that there's like times when it could be ambiguous if you like actually knew what tens le verp was in um and so you kind of have it ingrained in you to write it in a very specific way and there's a few bits and bobbs in Greek that.

01:29:29.21

Darien

01:29:37.78

Darien

Um.

01:29:46.19

Emily

Again are really difficult to translate into english because like there's so many like particles and stuff that we just like don't have um and and and one of the reasons why the Iliad isn't amazing in english is because the greeks and Shivan says I think talks about this in the introduction like the greeks have different words for they have multiple words. Certain things like weapons, body parts and all of that that make things feel less repetitive versus in english like we've got 1 word, we've got helmet. We got spear versus in Greek is.

01:30:09.42

Darien

Um, oh.

01:30:14.87

Darien

Yeah, that's what we got.

01:30:21.98

Emily

There's 2 words for sphere, you can call them either. Ah Cal Kos which is is bronze which first of all how great is that word. Calhos sorrys calhos um, grac is the best the yeah pafa and then acha. It's calcos which is bronze.

01:30:26.93

Darien

Um, that's Emily correcting herself only for herself because not a single person in this space would call her out.

01:30:41.86

Emily

But it means the tip to the spear and then there's doros which is like the shaft both means fear but depending on what part of the sphere you're writing about like yeah.

01:30:46.36

Darien

Ah, oh but you you would use 1 or the other that's cool as hell and that makes for great writing likes. It's not repetitive but you get it and you hyper focus on like what the the thing is.

01:30:59.46

Emily

Yeah, and and I and I'm saying this like there is point and shaft that we have in English but it's just not like you still have to kind of clarify like of the sphere you know? um.

01:31:04.74

Darien

And that's not the same. Yeah.

01:31:11.85

Emily

Although that being said Doro still means like it also can mean like sapling but like if you're reading the Iliad. They're not talking about a sapling. Um, and ah yeah, there's there's just like a bunch of little things in there that are I feel like I'm getting off track actually never mind.

01:31:14.46

Darien

You know it. It's not a sapling. Yeah.

01:31:31.41

Emily

Um.

01:31:31.68

Darien

Ok, we'll pull it back. We'll pull it back hey Emily um, so like what's the deal with Achilles and patroculus like are they dating or like what's going on there.

01:31:43.26

Emily

Yeah, this is like my I okay so the thing about the 2 of them right? is it's impossible to say for sure what the original intent was because we just like don't have that nuanced understanding of.

01:31:54.76

Darien

01:32:01.88

Emily

Social dynamics. Um, so this idea of them being like lovers emerged in terms of like quote unquote scholarship um in that like we have. Ah, Plato and plato' symposium. For example, they talk about Achilles and patroklas being ideal lovers. Um, so again, that's like 400 Bc right? Um, so it's like 400 years ish later to when they were written down, not not necessarily told but like written down um.

01:32:37.76

Emily

And it is a it is a significant period of time like 400 years is a lot and I think a mistake you can make when looking at history is not thinking about ancient people the way. Um, you would think about modern people. So for us four hundred years ago was like sick like the renaissance like that's a significant amount of time and progress. Um, and our societal attitudes towards things has immensely shifted so much since then.

01:33:14.50

Darien

Um.

01:33:15.71

Emily

That being said, something else to contend with is the language barrier because the fact is that nobody studying the elate in the odyssey as a native speaker of ancient Greek um, and I do think there's a lot to be said for the the fact that there could be a lot more nuance.

01:33:28.28

Darien

Um.

01:33:35.45

Emily

In the wording and the way their de their relationship is depicted where I would be more inclined to believe the account of people who were native speakers of Greek who are looking at this text and I would modern scosh it um, also.

01:33:46.87

Darien

Um, yeah, not yeah yeah, that that makes sense. But.

01:33:54.22

Emily

Like classics as a field has been pretty homophobic for a while shockingly um, like that. For example, there's still people coming out with hot takes like well what's sappho really gay and you're like yes like Greek has.

01:33:57.97

No way.

01:33:59.54

Darien

Um, yeah, there's that there is that.

01:34:11.66

The specific.

01:34:13.93

Emily

Gendered pronouns. It's unambiguous like it's all like Greek doesn't have gendered pronouns. You know, like no, she's saying she right there. She's saying she? ah.

01:34:14.16

Darien

Yeah, like no she said it herself like. It's the and ambiguously ah classics can be homophobic.

01:35:08.18

Emily

Yeah, classics generally is pretty homophobic. They're generally more okay with the men being gay the women being gay I will say but um, it's It's just really dicey and wishywashy because again like I mentioned there's sort of this.

01:35:15.46

Darien

Um.

01:35:22.32

Emily

Weird foundation of a lot of the field. Um, also like internalized homophobia is a thing too like ah Erasmus is a pretty big scholar of latin in medieval times and he was like almost certainly like way gay but like ah.

01:35:30.44

Darien

Um.

01:35:40.54

Emily

But he was a monk you know like um, yeah, so and and so there's all of that of like you know? ah.

01:35:40.99

Darien

Ah, but it was medieval times. So oh my guy.

01:35:43.84

The 50

01:35:53.50

Emily

Ultimately, like we are not people living in that time so we can't say for sure what the cultural norms were we can't say for sure if particular wording meant certain things like maybe there's connotations there. We just don't know almost. It's almost certain that there are um, but um, that all aside what we do know.

01:36:04.35

Darien

Ah.

01:36:12.40

Darien

Um.

01:36:12.58

Emily

About homosexuality in the ancient world and again what we do kind of know about and mostly comes from the classical period like we don't have a lot of stuff from like we we have most of the texts we have from the mycenaean period are just like records like we don't really have.

01:36:25.97

Darien

Um.

01:36:29.20

Emily

Stories from there. We don't really have like people writing about their lives. Um, so we can kind of look to other peoples in the area like the Egyptians wrote a lot. Um, which is nice. They're a great resource but um.

01:36:31.20

Darien

Yeah.

01:36:43.88

Darien

Oh yeah, they they wrote everything down you got to love it. But they also yeah, they're ah doing different things. It's not the same.

01:36:45.88

Emily

Yeah, but they're also like a different society. You know So um, but what we do know at least culturally increased by the classical period is and in terms of like homosexuality. It had a lot.. There's a lot more importance placed On. Ah, for lack of a better way to phrase it who was on top than like if the gender of the person you were having sex with there are a lot of power dynamics and societal dynamics associated with that. Um, and so the way.

01:37:06.94

Darien

Mm.

01:37:23.60

Emily

Achilles and patroclus' relationship is portrayed is interesting because yes.

01:37:28.25

Um, they're both switches. Um.

01:37:34.25

Emily

And no exactly they're both at times doing things that would be perceived as quote unquote like womanly um, like the way Achilles Mourns Patroclus is kind of the way a wife mourns a husband.

01:37:35.40

Darien

Damn Okay Dj nice.

01:37:37.35

Me too.

01:37:50.92

Darien

Negs ah taught us about that during our last episode about Achilles doing all of the funeral stuff is a thing that a woman would usually do and Achilles doesn't let fucking anyone else get involved.

01:37:51.44

Um.

01:37:53.20

Emily

And yeah.

01:38:01.49

Emily

Yeah, and and there's all these lines of like patroclus Essentially like quote unquote like running Achilles as household in the Iliad like there's there's a lot of that. Um and like my interpretation of it as a person who's.

01:38:01.74

Um, yeah.

01:38:08.10

Darien

Someone had to run that man's household. He clearly wasn't running it himself.

01:38:08.56

Um.

01:38:13.10

No, he was at War but clearly patroculus at the time.

01:38:15.93

Darien

So was for is everyone is.

01:38:22.90

Darien

Because he wasn't ah moping and playing music in the tent he had shit to do sorry I'm like oh but.

01:38:23.61

Emily

Again anyway, sorry I totally miss what were saying because I was just I realized I was talking I'm so sorry DJ especially is really quiet in my earbu. So when I'm talking I don't always hear you.

01:38:28.28

Um, um Star Um, sorry no, you're totally fine. Yeah I'm just goofing and gaffing.

01:38:34.66

Darien

You most of what we have to say are jokes. So ah, yeah, patrolist is running the household.

01:38:37.69

Emily

I Yeah Yako yao. Yeah, So there's a lot of that and my interpretation and again I'm biased because I think they're gay um my interpretation of their relationship though is it feels very much like it's written. As subtext,, but there's a lot of also like oh my God No Homo in there. Um, but it's also like things that were expected as the norm like again sex is not viewed. Sexuality was not viewed as like an either or situation and it wasn't viewed as a like like you had a wife.

01:38:58.50

Darien

Oh.

01:39:00.00

Um.

01:39:09.36

Darien

There There was the link. Yeah, the language didn't but.

01:39:10.65

Um, yeah.

01:39:13.00

Emily

Run your hass to have your children blah blah blah blah they were your property versus like um like I don't know and like I as an Ace person I do appreciate that this could also be representation of a truly deep platonic friendship like it's not something I'm rooting against.

01:39:27.74

Darien

Um, yeah.

01:39:31.21

Emily

You know, but also I like again as an Ace person reading this I'm like m.

01:39:35.34

Darien

Um, no yeah, it's another thing I wanted to I It's like I think they're gay and very much want to celebrate like that that like have to. Fight against that instinct to be like no queer folks have existed and we didn't make them up in the tumblr Era like we've always had these stories. They aren't something that can be hidden anymore but simultaneously like also as like resonating with like being Ace and wanting to see depictions of like deep platonic.

01:39:50.87

Emily

Remember.

01:40:07.80

Darien

Love being so celebrated and worth dying for and caring that deeply about does it in your opinion as someone who's like studied this text does it actually really matter like the the the nature like if the. Yeah, that nature like does it really matter if the relationship was this or this or this like to the story. Interesting.

01:40:33.38

Emily

The answer. It's like yes and no I think so again because I just read it the most recently um because Emily Wilson talks about this in her introduction to translation. Also she's like what she because she cites them as friends in her translation and she explains.

01:40:38.65

Darien

01:40:49.64

Emily

That it's because a lot of the language that Achilles is Achilles uses in describing Patroklus is more of that of a parent child and there's also all this instances of like it almost feeling like esp spells a relationship at times and I do think there's also this like great friendship and this dynamic duo and you see like these great friendships.

01:40:56.40

Darien

Interesting.

01:40:57.42

Um.

01:41:04.26

Darien

Button.

01:41:08.21

Emily

In the Iliad like um, ah ah, um, dimede and his charioteer. You know they have a great this great deep friendship Odysseus Innechies have a great deep friendship like um, there's a lot of great deep male friendships in the Iliad.

01:41:18.81

Darien

Um.

01:41:26.34

Emily

But I do think in the text Achilles and patroclus relationship for better or for worse is intended to be transcendent because a huge piece of Achilles. A storyline is grief and it's dealing with mortality and so Patroclus as a character I think inherently has the most weight as somebody who.

01:41:26.85

Darien

Um.

01:41:36.77

Darien

So.

01:41:46.10

Emily

As is said in the tax like means the most to Achilles and I think seeing them as having like the deepest possible relationship whether that be to some that of a parent child that of romantic partners.

01:41:47.85

Darien

Yeah.

01:42:02.99

Emily

That of like just truly deep friends like I feel like there that ambiguity also does give us an in wherever we are at in our own lives to that storyline. But I think like especially in our current society portraying them as lovers. Is the most powerful story because I think we also weigh romantic relationships the highest.

01:42:22.37

Darien

Yeah, and that is a bummer but also to get just be able to demonstrate that quickly for audiences to understand the like the cultural stuff of like this is what we're saying. Do you get? Okay, we're moving on I also.

01:42:25.60

Um.

01:42:36.13

Emily

Yeah.

01:42:40.55

Darien

Ah, having that really should be like the the deepest like you said most transcendent for them I think also just talking about it in this conversation makes me think how Achilles knows that he will die shortly after Hector does he know I know Thetus knows that does Achilles know that.

01:42:57.21

Emily

I think she tells him he'll die after Hector after Hector kills patroclus.

01:43:00.62

Darien

Ok, and so his whole thing is like I want to be like the whole thing. He's like holding out on fighting. He's glory on like undying glory like I want to be remembered forever and after patroclus dies he's just like I'm going to kill Hector and I'm going to be done.

01:43:10.53

Emily

And 1

01:43:19.99

Darien

Which means he's like no longer. It feels like no longer necessarily worried about doing those things and stacking up the goal cards and getting the treasure and getting all that unending glory because you can't get that glory if you're dead but he's just like fuck it I don't necessarily care about that anymore because.

01:43:30.31

Emily

Yeah.

01:43:38.23

Darien

The could it I'm now like if I don't know reading as like a realization that maybe on ending glory isn't necessarily the thing that is actually most important to focus on in this life like focusing so much on how you'll be remembered when you're gone does.

01:43:52.22

Emily

Yeah I.

01:43:57.91

Darien

Maybe that actually didn't matter more than focusing on what you loved here and who loved you here.

01:44:02.11

Emily

Yeah, and I think I mean I think that is very much the like on the one hand the Iliad is sort of a meditation on that want for glory. It's also definitely an argument for that being the source to mortality I think especially. And this is a text that was written about people that were already long dead and long gone. So there's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy in it. Um, but also if you look at the Iliad as a narrative it like I said it begins with so the first word is the divine wrath of Achilles.

01:44:24.25

Darien

Um, yeah, that's yeah.

01:44:34.74

Darien

01:44:38.74

Emily

And this is I think where we can also get into what's actually in the Iliad because the story of the Iliad begins when um, a priest of Apollo comes this isn't it's in the ninth year of a 10 year war so they've already been going for so long and.

01:44:46.62

Are.

01:44:53.46

Darien

So.

01:44:57.97

Emily

Then it starts with the priest of Apollo demanding his daughter back. Interesting bookend. Um from the Greeks. Um Agamemnon giving her back but then ah, calamity and sayinging because they're not getting him.

01:45:08.43

Um.

01:45:14.82

Emily

They're not going to give her back initially then agmemnon relenting king of the Greeks. But as kind of payment for asking him to do what was do you know? What was best for the entire people of greece by sacrificing some of his glory. He punishes Achilles um by taking. Some of his and Achilles is. That's what the wrath is. It's about him getting some of his glory stolen and then we see how his personal wrath and personal drive for glory. Is is poisonous to his comrades and also ultimately to him through the storyline with patroklus because Patrolus essentially dies because he takes Achilles's place because Achilles refuses to fight. Still.

01:46:07.40

Darien

Ah.

01:46:08.70

Emily

And like you you so much of the ilia Toos you see just like how hard how much calamity is being brought onto the greeks that had that that were that disagreed with Agamemon not like only Agamemon not really like wanted.

01:46:23.75

Darien

Yeah, they all they all told him no no, no give just give the yeah, he's giving giving us treasure just give him his daughter back like it's fine. He's like no so Apollo's like I'm gonna give you all disease and they're like no.

01:46:25.20

Um, her.

01:46:25.63

Emily

To pursue that course of action. Yeah.

01:46:33.23

Um.

01:46:35.23

Emily

It is like how much calamity comes to pass not an agamemnon but on the entirety of the greeks like they almost all get wiped out um several times. Yeah, well then his wife kills him but now we stand.

01:46:43.84

Darien

Um, a man on gets to go home I mean his let me combuster kills him and that's great. We love that actually I do like it. He had to stay at war for 10 years finally got to go home and then his wife kills him for killing their daughter. Yeah, ah but for real for real.

01:46:51.79

Emily

Um, wait stand. He deserves it. Um, um, but so that that storyline with the trokeless though is like he has to he ends up unbeknownst to him relinquishing the thing what he cares the person he cares about the most.

01:47:11.22

Emily

Through through his own like desire for glorious wrath all of these really negative aspects of heroism and then um goes on a rampage of revenge but it's not enough to repay. What's been done and then.

01:47:18.80

Darien

Um.

01:47:29.59

Darien

Ah.

01:47:31.20

Emily

Finally, he kind of achieves his revenge but it's hollow and they mourn patroclus the book 23 is the funeral games and then book 24 the final book of the Iliad the way it ends is Hector's father goes to Achilles and begs him.

01:47:39.50

Darien

Ah.

01:47:48.61

Emily

Again, father begging for his child back and he tells him about he beseeches Achilles to that and all of the processing Achilles has done like with the funeral games and other stuff him kind of coming to terms with the death of patroclus. Um. Also like patroclus close is cleos. Um, yeah patrolas me like glory to the father patras pet patra Pat Patter um just a little um Cleopatra is actually an inversion of the name.

01:48:10.70

Darien

No wow.

01:48:22.22

Darien

It's little on the nose. Don't you think.

01:48:27.58

Darien

Really.

01:48:28.14

Emily

By the way patrala. Yeah um, Cleo Patra Patra clera

01:48:36.26

Darien

So it's like the it's like Alexander and Alexandra just like the lady version of it or inversion. Yeah.

01:48:44.16

Emily

Well inversion but I had mostly women I don't think I've seen a man being named cleopatra. Um, but then um Achilles through finally being mourning a patroclus and processing it realizes after being besieged, let's go.

01:48:50.16

Um.

01:49:01.93

Emily

Of the anger. Let's go of that and gives priam his son's body back like that's the ilia. That's the story and a bunch of other stuff happens in between when people go on other Journeys but that's the central narrative.

01:49:03.42

Darien

Um.

01:49:16.10

Darien

That's so but that's yeah, that's so beautiful and sad.

01:49:20.46

Emily

That's how begins and ends. I Know right. Like that's how it ends it ends with them being able to bury hector that's literally the last line.

01:49:31.12

Darien

I yeah yeah, they ah I think ok I'm going to just full on pull us out of talking about the Iliad I think for this conversation in this podcast. I think that's as miraculous and special as we're going to be able to to get um otherwise we'll just keep Emily here for another 6 hours and learn on. Ah no, this isn' a monster donut. No no, no so so we are gonna get into.

01:49:49.86

Um.

01:49:57.15

Um, yeah I'm sure Darren will be happy to do it with you but I am sleepy.

01:49:59.76

Emily

I'm happy to do it like.

01:50:08.19

Darien

The ah what this podcast is about which is we got to talk just a little bit about pop culture Emily you've mentioned the movie Troy a couple of times. Do you as an odyssey not a sorry oh I'm so sorry as an Iliad person feel that that movie Troy is a good adaptation of the Iliad.

01:50:14.71

Emily

Ah ha.

01:50:26.55

Emily

Um, there are parts of it that I really like and there are parts of it that I Really don't like I think a lot of it can be explained by the fact that one of the writers is one of the writers of game or throne.

01:50:27.38

Darien

01:50:35.65

Darien

Well yeah, ok, we see some vibes there.

01:50:39.31

Emily

Ah, yeah, there's a lot of um people getting killed off that don't that don't happen in the myth. Ah that that's not like game of thrones. It's like aggressively stray like and also.

01:50:39.49

Is this specific.

01:50:45.55

Darien

Why But so many people die.

01:50:54.55

Emily

So um, very secular. So the big change they make for there's like several big changes they make but like the biggest change is there's no gods in the movie. It's all yeah, there's no gods. Also patroclus is Achilles cousin that's like the 2 big ones.

01:51:01.00

Darien

Oh that's really weird.

01:51:09.75

Darien

Um, oh my god it's like in Sailor Moon it's like oh can't be gay. So let's make them cousins. That's why I care about them so much we're cousins.

01:51:11.73

Emily

Yeah, it's let's says it's it's my cousin. It's like yeah, it's just you know Eric Bana as Hector and that the way they portray Hector passes the vibe check I think it's great. Um, that's that part's great and I do think they capture. Yeah I do think they really capture the spirit of the Iliad in a lot of the parts like I think Achilles as a character in Hector is a character feel real to me Agamemnon feels like a good portrayal of the character.

01:51:32.38

Darien

Um, and Hector's your favorite so that that earns them a lot of of Goodwill it sounds like.

01:51:51.70

Emily

Um, Sean beans Odysseus which is pretty funny. Um, it's like the 1 movie he doesn't die in.

01:51:54.49

This this this this this this is.

01:51:59.58

Darien

Yeah, but Odysseus famously doesn't die.

01:52:01.39

Emily

And there are parts in it where I like understand why what they were going for and how it kind of vibes with the Iliad. But it's also like why are you doing it this way. No, where they like spoiler alert but like Paris kills medeleas in a duel and like on the 1 hand like in the.

01:52:09.32

Darien

01:52:20.14

Emily

In the movie. The point is oh Orlando blooms Paris it's a great casting choice. There's a lot of hot people in this movie. There's a lot of hot people in this movie. Um.

01:52:22.20

Darien

Oh Wow Well I've actually never I should watch this maybe for funzies Dj that should be got to put on the Remith we definitely got a the fantastic.

01:52:29.17

Um.

01:52:32.71

Um, ah will slap Troy on the remith.

01:52:36.80

Emily

Like meas gets killed by Paris but like in the movie. It's sort of like this thing it was like oh well ok, the guy whose wife we're trying to get back is dead but like we're still going to fight because like that's that's not what this was about like that is in spirit of the Iliad. But it's also like what like that. There's some choices.

01:52:50.34

Darien

I Fifty fifty

01:52:55.26

Emily

Um, overall I would give it like 4 out of 5 stars if you want like a good sense of the vibes of the ilia also like the find the fight scene between Hector and Achilles in this movie. Wow so good. Um.

01:52:58.44

Darien

Oh.

01:53:07.75

Darien

Sometimes an I Yeah sometimes an adaptation doesn't have to be accurate. Sometimes it just has to be vibes.

01:53:14.60

Emily

I'll take like I'll take like 75% is accurate and 25% is wildly not I've been. There's so many Greek myth stuff. That's that's that's so much worse than that like.

01:53:29.24

Darien

Um, the last Olympian is ah like cited as this is the Iliad book. How.

01:53:30.57

Emily

Um.

01:53:34.31

Emily

Yeah.

01:53:38.64

Darien

Is it other than they just fight and the cursive Achilles is there and Selina and umlary do their thing.

01:53:45.70

Emily

Ah, yeah, so I I So on one if you want to hear my full rant about this I that I talked a lot about this on Monster donut I But there's a line in there.

01:53:56.83

Darien

Um.

01:54:01.69

Emily

Where I think Prometheus he's there and he says like this is this is your trojan war. So like Rick clearly was like this is the Iliad I did the Iliad because there's a war.

01:54:02.23

Darien

Yeah. Intended. Yeah, but that's not the Iliad as we talked about for most of this episode. That's not the Iliad.

01:54:16.39

Emily

Yeah, and the the thing is like there's really not that many parallels like the biggest like iconic part of the elliad is like the wall Newrek doesn't have a wall also like the Trojan horse They don't do that? um.

01:54:17.55

The fifty fifth

01:54:26.12

Darien

Yeah, is it? yeah.

01:54:36.27

Emily

I So like is it like an express and it a direct adaptation in parallel no um, but and and I think like he does replay a lot of the myths and a lot of his books but this one it doesn't hit the beats Also like it only hits like a couple of the beats. It doesn't hit all of the beats.

01:54:43.65

Darien

Um.

01:54:53.66

Darien

Um.

01:54:56.20

Emily

Of um, the Iliad.

01:54:56.24

Darien

Could you argue that Luke and Achilles maybe are hitting that b of like oh but a look is it going for glory or anything. He's just mad at his dad. He kind of is though elaborate.

01:55:06.40

Emily

Kind of so like he kind of is it kind is I think so um, his speech at the end of lighting thief is like eerily similar to a moment when Achilles is talking about glory.

01:55:11.14

Um.

01:55:24.63

Darien

Umm.

01:55:25.32

Emily

Um, it just like ah he really like just the fact that he wants to be able to carve out a place for himself in the world that he wants to be able to like have agency and do things like that feels very reminiscent of Achilles. Maybe more modernized version of Achilles.

01:55:36.54

Darien

Okay, but.

01:55:42.33

Darien

But the vibes are there.

01:55:43.63

Emily

Um, yeah, and I do think like the way I interpreted the Iliad as a fight really between the gods and the mortals it make it feels like more it vibes with the last Olympian where.

01:55:55.63

Darien

Um.

01:55:57.87

Emily

There's all these arbitrary rules and weird things going on and the mortals are just kind of fending for themselves and just sort of hung out to dry like all of that. Yeah yeah, so like all of that feels very Ill iity. Um.

01:56:02.44

Darien

Yeah, the gods literally aren't there as there's a siege on Olympus. It's like there's something like in the Iliad. It feels like the gods there is something more important to them than the lives of any of these mortals. And that's kind of reflected in the last Olympian where it's like there's something more important to the gods and the lives of any of their children.

01:56:25.48

Um, yeah.

01:56:25.54

Emily

Yeah, and they'll even like pop in and just kind of like mess with them even though it's like their world at stake too where you're just like what are you doing? What are you doing? Yeah yeah, um.

01:56:28.68

Darien

Yeah, it's like dionyssis. What are you doing here. We don't need to talk to you right now? What do you are? You are you helping I don't think this is helpful. Go play Pacman leave Percy alone.

01:56:40.59

Emily

Yeah, there's also an interesting parallel. Um, so in the Iliad there's 2 times that Zeus Weighs the scales and one time sides with the greeks on time sides with the trojans and that is actually reminiscent of Ethan Nakamora

01:56:51.47

Darien

Oh yeah, yeah, ok so this there's.

01:56:54.75

Emily

So that that is in there and I feel like that was intentional I think like just from because it happens twice in the Percy Jackson series to once in battle the labyrinth and once in the last Sointhian where Ethan Nakamora like kind of plays a pivotal role and.

01:57:05.41

Darien

Yeah. And doing that. Oh interesting. Yeah.

01:57:14.20

Emily

Waiting the skills in a different in opposite ways. Um.

01:57:19.18

Darien

So yeah, yeah.

01:57:22.37

Emily

Yeah, it's like they're there. The echoes are there I feel like though the struggles are just also kind of different too. So that's where I think these kind of diverge. Um.

01:57:34.70

Darien

Um, like there are beats that are there but the overall theme isn't quite the same.

01:57:38.55

Emily

Yeah, like I think if you get too caught up in the idea that the Iliad's about a war. You might think it's a parallel any war is a parallel to it. But it's like.

01:57:47.56

Darien

not it's not it ah on the topic of beats this is something that I have ah pet theory brand new just developed it I think that Jason Grace's death because you're burning me so I can talk about this. It's fine. It's not spoiler for you. Jason Grace's death feels reminiscent of.

01:58:00.21

Emily

Yeah.

01:58:06.30

Darien

Patroccolus is death I just get up beside this smear thing but like a god was involved and it gets stabbed and then stabbed again.

01:58:09.80

Emily

Ah, no I don't know I'm I'm I'm laughing because I burning may's episode comes out next week but I literally said that.

01:58:16.14

Um, this this this is.

01:58:22.80

Darien

Wanting to know whether you thought I was right and I didn't want to wait for your episode to come out. Yay.

01:58:22.53

Emily

You are right? this you are right I made Pebe cry because I read her that part of the.

01:58:27.40

Um.

01:58:30.48

Darien

I was so excited you did it make I mean you record for 6 hours do we know if that conversation is going to make the final cut. Well, that's also part of the reason why I want to ask them like but maybe they talk about it. But what if it's not there. But.

01:58:36.70

Emily

Probably it it better.

01:58:44.26

Um, what if they don't talk about it.

01:58:44.62

Emily

I think it's there I remember Phoebe told me about it because she was talk. She told me she mentioned it. She's like oh I just got to that part editing and you that got to the part where you just like made me cry talking you about the ilia and I was just like wait. What.

01:58:53.48

01:58:53.86

Darien

Ah, and how dare yay. But yeah I when we were ah doing last episode about Achilles and patroclus I was like reading and I was like this patrocolu the exact passage of Pastrocolos dying and like that's a lot like Jason Grace I can't

01:59:09.70

Emily

Apollo is there getting stabbed in the back. There's so much.

01:59:10.22

Darien

Imagine that was yeah I'm like I can't imagine that was an accident and I don't know I like Jason a lot so I kind of um, find it so tragically endearing that Rick wanted to give him a specific I like yeah.

01:59:14.16

01:59:21.53

Emily

I'm glad you like Jason we're a very small club her very small club. Ah I am.

01:59:24.50

Um I love Jason I love all the boys of the 7 David I'll defend lay I did 100% it's why

01:59:30.80

Darien

Um dj will defend Leo and his argument is Leo is the most realistic teenage boy you have ever read in fiction and that's why you ate him. It's fine.

01:59:37.18

Emily

You're right? which is why I'm a leo anti.

01:59:40.27

Everyone it's why everyone hates Leo it's because he's a real ass 13 year old kid. Yeah, it's it's literally just puberty. They don't know what's going on.

01:59:44.60

Darien

Um, and 13 year old boys actually kind of suck. It's not their fault. They don't know any better.

01:59:47.64

Emily

Ah, they do suck. No I had yeah no I Yeah I.

01:59:53.10

Darien

We and we're going to stop. You're going to stop talking about Leo right now we we can't talk about anybody else who's up heres in trials of Apollo or but ah, but yeah I was just I just wanted to see if you thought I was right? Thank you.

01:59:58.11

Emily

Um, um, yeah, you are right I think I think I don't know how much of it's intentional or not but I see the echoes and like I mentioned like the scene of Patroclus dying is like the death of the hero like that is like type scene.

02:00:07.70

Um.

02:00:12.53

Darien

02:00:14.94

Emily

So for me like I did talk about that a bit where I was like this is like it feels reminiscent of this which makes sense because I feel like that's kind of the idea of what we're going for wait I say we that's kind of the idea of what it feels like Rick's going for um with that theme. Yeah I did is we wrong I'm like we are.

02:00:28.38

Darien

Ah, yeah, that time you used we wrong? Ah I you know what? honestly you should though someone Rick needs to get you on the horn.

02:00:33.14

Emily

Going for it me and Rick Riordan I helped him write that.

02:00:41.82

Emily

Ah I I have so many questions I have so many things to say the thing is it's he kind of wrote himself out of a lot of the issues I do have though because.

02:00:42.13

So fifty fifty

02:00:55.68

Emily

The idea is it's like what the western cultural memory is is more important than what the reality was so I can't really come that hard for him because I can't I can't be like okay the like 300 is like not very accurate Rick. Um.

02:01:01.69

Ray is showing up to dog on it.

02:01:02.21

Darien

Ah, yeah.

02:01:13.11

Yeah, but 300 is bad ass and that's that is Rick's thinking of this whole situation. 300 school

02:01:15.51

Darien

Listen.

02:01:15.83

Emily

Yeah. Yeah, the like.

02:01:22.78

Darien

Um, ah, no dear listener Emily is just dying deejay has that's your.

02:01:31.55

That movie was just made for dudes like it's outright and that you could find a dude on this planet. That's like now three hundred s awesome 100% oh yeah too much for the historical arac.

02:01:33.90

Emily

The 3 Yeah, it was yeah, let listen it's it. It's it's its it's like brave heart right? It's a great movie but don't you don't watch it for the accuracy.

02:01:39.79

Darien

Power fantasies.

02:01:48.44

Darien

I have one more pop because I'm not I'm not interested in going through all the other places that the iliat it appears in pop culture and unless deejay or you Emily have a favorite that you want to talk about.

02:01:58.26

Um I don't have I actually have no of nothing.

02:02:01.63

Emily

Trying to think if there's any like what have I what's pop culture.

02:02:09.13

Darien

Um, ah, let's go sixteen hundreds forward because I but regularly cited Shakespeare shit. So.

02:02:14.33

Ah content. What was what is considered contemporary I suppose.

02:02:14.43

Emily

Oh well, if you want to hear an interesting fun fact. Um there was a really long period of time starting around I think the sixteen hundreds isn't like middle middle ages just like through the renaissance where um, these 2 guys forged each forged.

02:02:18.20

Darien

Place.

02:02:27.60

Um, yeah.

02:02:32.37

Emily

Like a fake like no I was really at Troy this is an on the ground account of what happened and for a while no like for a while those 2 were considered like oh no, but this is what really happened like people took them more seriously than the Iliad or like other myths.

02:02:39.41

Um, that's right.

02:02:40.17

Darien

Ah, whats like fatness some found footage shit.

02:02:51.68

Emily

Which kind of had been lost at that point where they were like no this is what really happened to Troy and they like just made up it like they didn't they weren't even like contemporary myths they're like just some guys made them up and I it's amazing. It's like crazy.

02:02:52.15

Darien

Ah, oh my god.

02:02:54.86

Um, who.

02:03:05.13

Um, it it's like Rick Ri it's Percy Jackson and the olympians.

02:03:05.48

Darien

It's like 300

02:03:09.41

Emily

And so many issues just like oh wow Yeah I was totally there. Yeah that well it's it's honestly kind of like um.

02:03:16.83

Darien

Are we back in Fanfic territory.

02:03:19.36

Emily

I was in the same. It's it's like Fanfic as it to say it's almost like the demigod files I works like I wrote it down like I was am'm describicing a halflood.

02:03:20.49

Um, who.

02:03:31.35

Um.

02:03:31.85

Darien

Ah, that's that's incredible. Ah.

02:03:34.46

Emily

It's like if the landing thief was like a history like people thought it was a historical semi historical like story version account and then actually someone was like no I was there.

02:03:40.55

Darien

But I was there though. What's ok, that's actually great. Yeah, no, that's a good comparison. Ah okay, 1 more thing I want to do and we've actually haven't played this game in a really long time but this is something in early early episode episode of the podcast that we would do. Ah.

02:03:46.15

Emily

02:03:48.60

Um.

02:04:00.60

Darien

If you were going to tell an Iliad story maybe not adapt the entire thing but what would you want to do and what medium do you think would be the best for doing it.

02:04:16.50

Emily

Um, well I've already figured that out because I it's on the docket. That's not actually well that would be good. Actually what I would do what I would love to do what I would love love to do is an opera.

02:04:17.37

Darien

So how have you.

02:04:20.25

Um, the whole thing is an animate.

02:04:21.89

Darien

DJ wins

02:04:31.94

Emily

But like the real Iliad like it starts and begins at the same place. There's no sacking of Troy but this would be like this would have to be a met commission. Yeah, it would be about this.

02:04:32.60

Are.

02:04:32.47

Darien

Um, ah, elaborate asbound ah of oh yeah, yeah, this is the it starts with a priest and ends with the funeral.

02:04:45.92

Me.

02:04:46.43

Emily

Personal stories and but it would have to be like a met commission because I want like that budget you know like I want I need like the walls of Troy to be on stage you know like I need horses I need real horses. It's the met.

02:04:51.10

Darien

Oh yeah, you need top of the line everything. The costumes is actual. We're talking real horses or puppet horses. This is a warhorse situation Rail horses on the stage ah be.

02:04:53.54

Um, yeah, yeah.

02:05:04.28

Emily

It's the met. Maybe they get real horses. They get real camels. Um, or maybe I'll do like the the Julia Tame war directed version or something which is somehow even more expensive. Um, no I really I I mean because the thing is.

02:05:08.34

Um.

02:05:08.45

Darien

Bet. Yeah yeah, I'd just like puppets.

02:05:16.67

Darien

Ah.

02:05:20.61

Emily

It's like a long story. So I feel like even a feature film can't cover it miniseries The thing is it's like the thing about the Iliad is it I feel like the best way to tell it is. It's almost like a series of snapshots and moments that are grounded in this landscape.

02:05:24.86

Darien

Um.

02:05:35.18

Emily

So I feel like doing it in a song form is really good because there's a sort of Lucy Goosey quality with timing in songs where a single song can encompass a really long period of time or a single emotional moment stretched out. So I feel like the flexibility and like what to focus on and how much weight it's given is really good with.

02:05:41.96

Darien

Ah.

02:05:45.66

Darien

Yeah.

02:05:54.59

Emily

Um, like ah theater type storytelling and then feels also more true to the original format um, being oral people in front of you explain talking about it and then also like having music and like having that added element to it again. Kind of more true to the original format.

02:05:58.61

Darien

Um, yeah.

02:06:09.58

Darien

Very cool.

02:06:13.44

Emily

And also just gives you that extra dimension of storytelling. So yeah I've thought about this opera.

02:06:17.56

Darien

Um, yes, ah yeah, I'm not surprised you thought about this did you I know for a fact, you haven't thought about this you had an a on the pulse though I would love to hear.

02:06:23.90

Understandable.

02:06:28.88

No, ah because I just think Anime is so funny. That's that's a I think oh I mean? yeah yeah, don't get me wrong I Just kind of pulling it out because I just I think the medium of animmate is just funny because you can get away with so much more.

02:06:31.82

Emily

I Feel like there are few media where Anime is the wrong call though.

02:06:35.80

Darien

This is true.

02:06:43.51

Emily

Yeah.

02:06:43.81

Darien

This Yeah I think yeah I.

02:06:46.87

You get her so much in anime you wanted to be a goofy slice of life where Hector is truly just being the house man. Great dude like Achilles shows up every now and again, but we're just following ah ah or not hector. Um, Patroculus Yeah, you yeah, he's.

02:07:02.47

Darien

Overroclus. Oh yeah, he's the he's taking care of shit. Yeah and Achilles just comes in to mope occasionally.

02:07:02.66

Emily

Oh yeah, yeah I feel like if you're gonna do like the extended epic cycles. Well with like all of the different stories that would be good.

02:07:06.20

We're just watching um and it's all in it.

02:07:12.41

Darien

That would be really fun now I'm getting a Hotalia vibe from what you're describing where everything just kind of overlaps with each other and nothing is serious.

02:07:13.37

Oh yeah, just no.

02:07:23.17

Oh no I mean like that's just 1 instance and then you can have like a berserk style where we're actually going through the fucking war you know.

02:07:25.17

Emily

Ah.

02:07:31.52

Darien

Um I think I am I'm definitely yeah I'm vibing with you saying my instinct when I was well Emily was talking and I was like back of my me like what would I do I also am just very partial to the art form. Yes plays. But.

02:07:41.42

Um, place I.

02:07:45.25

Emily

Man.

02:07:46.27

Darien

Animation I'm very partial to animation and what you can do in it. But I think specifically I would take a star wars visions approach when it's like here is a 8 to 12 episode series. It is about the Iliad.

02:07:53.13

Emily

02:07:57.24

The world.

02:08:03.49

Darien

But it is a different art style and a different storyteller taking sections from it and telling it as if you were almost like going back to that homeric Kim style where you've got the different dialects and different poets were telling it and maybe in so far that you have.

02:08:13.72

Man.

02:08:18.55

Darien

Ah, version of Achilles who's very wilddly different this other version of Achilles. But that doesn't seem dissonant because the art style is different but you'd keep the same voice actors through it and then just having not even like this is the X number of pages and this is X but it is about ideas and themes rather than telling.

02:08:26.40

Emily

Ah, yeah.

02:08:36.31

Darien

From start to finish but still having it bookend with the priest coming for his daughter and then Hector's father coming for Hector's body and but the middle isn't telling chronologically it's telling vibes and zeroing on characters and visiting really just like.

02:08:45.42

Ah.

02:08:52.90

Darien

Also an opportunity to collect a bunch of very talented storytellers to be like what do you want to focus on in the Iliad and giving them the opportunity to like pull at that be like I want to talk about hen and what she was going through in this specific moment and not have to it is it. We could just hang out with Phoenix for a while too if someone wanted to I don't fucking know like.

02:08:56.14

Emily

And then.

02:09:12.50

Emily

That's really good I like that a lot that big great because I feel like again, the cool thing with the Iliad is there's so much there so like having a bunch of different voices telling the same story I mean that's also again very much in life with all these different poets telling it too like that's yeah.

02:09:12.60

Darien

Shows up more than once.

02:09:14.98

Um.

02:09:16.59

Darien

Who.

02:09:22.78

Darien

Oh.

02:09:26.54

Emily

Ah, that works for me I like that a lot.

02:09:27.42

Darien

Thank you all right? Dear listener absolutely tell us how what medium and how would you want to tell a version of the Iliad because troys as Emily said, apparently great, but it can't be the only one. So what else should we make let us know and we will make up.

02:09:40.23

Fifty Fifty fifty

02:09:43.00

Emily

I would say great I would say like yeah, but it's like the missing star isn't just like almost perfect. It's like it's missing a fifth of what it needs like yeah.

02:09:45.92

Darien

Call the met you gave it 4 out of 5 stars my dear.

02:09:50.41

Um, sister sister.

02:09:56.80

Darien

But that's fair, no, that's fair, It's that it's not a star. It's an eternal organ.

02:09:57.84

Um, understandable.

02:10:00.99

Yeah, but you're missing a Kidney like I need I need something from you.

02:10:02.79

Emily

It's like why is this straight? um.

02:10:05.49

Darien

It's so yeah, yeah, why is it straight all. Ah Emily thank you so much for oh my god joining us and giving us essentially what is a free college lecture I've had a great time. Yeah I ah please tell like plus.

02:10:15.84

Emily

I Hope you've had a good time.

02:10:17.68

Um, there was a lot of fun.

02:10:23.20

Darien

Some stuff we've obviously mentioned monster donut a ton that's going to be in the show notes. But where can the listeners find you because obviously they're going to want more of you. You know so much you make so many good things.

02:10:31.36

Emily

Um, you can find me well that's the thing if you can't you can't really get to those things yet. Um, you can find me here. Um, let's see oh you can find me on Twitter at 9 emily lime I'm sorry x.

02:10:36.66

Darien

Where can they find them when they are real and they can get to them.

02:10:46.90

Darien

No no, you can't.

02:10:48.50

Emily

I mean I get against speaking of things that just like our ephemeral um suck. So but I mourn it? Um, yeah I so.

02:10:48.89

Fuck x that branding sucks you should have kept it Twitter dude it's instant insane.

02:10:59.70

Darien

It's like he's breaking it on purpose.

02:11:06.85

Emily

Ah, you find me on Twitter at 9 at 9 the number 9 emily lime 9 another number nine. It's a palindrome I made it when I was a pretentious high schooler. It's fine. Um, and then you can also if I made Instagram at wait is that miss on my Twitter comment on is that so much Twitter.

02:11:14.92

Darien

Ah.

02:11:25.97

Darien

But yeah, let's double check and then I'll I will edit it'll only say the right things.

02:11:26.25

Emily

Probably I'm just double checking. Let me fact, check myself real quick. Yeah, that's my Twitter um, yeah, you can find me on Twitter at 9 Emily I'm nine with the number nine s there. Um, you can also find me on Instagram at.

02:11:40.95

Darien

02:11:45.91

Emily

Emily J Garber you can also find my podcast at ah Pj O Pod on Instagram listen y'all were around long before us. No one took it.

02:11:52.35

Darien

Yeah, they snagged the PJOPod one which was the ah the brilliant odd that no for and no one even thought and that's the Seo is hope that was brilliant.

02:12:02.81

Emily

Well, it also makes up for us being called Monster donut like I that is so hard just that's unsearchable.

02:12:09.23

Darien

And yeah, yeah, no, that's wise yeah, we're sitting here as the me what muses of myth because someone else on Instagram has muses of mythology when we switch a name over. They've posted 1 time four years ago I'm still salty.

02:12:20.32

Bastards.

02:12:22.89

Emily

Ah, you know it's fine. No one's going to type out the full word mythology. Anyway, you'll be like you'll get MYTH what the fuck comes next. So that's when you start to having to sound it out even me like that. Yeah, ah, um.

02:12:25.79

Darien

That's true. They'll go that'll pop up first. It's fine. Thank you Emily.

02:12:29.88

Um, yeah.

02:12:31.84

Darien

Ah, yeah, be this all? Yeah, you just hope it autopopulates.

02:12:40.75

Emily

It does have my favorite like ancient Greek anything as an ology is really fun to say in Greek because the gamma sound like the g it's like kind of a g but also kind of a whyi so it's like with loia with the log. Yeah, it's just a fun mouth sound.

02:12:48.79

Darien

Um, ah yeah, that's so far. What a fun mouth sound.

02:12:55.77

Um, is as great.

02:12:58.24

Emily

Um, it's like the high like Achilles is name I in Greek is aos like it's not care. It's her aeos. It just better. Um, yes.

02:13:02.88

Darien

Ah, hairos fabulous. Well links to all of Emily's stuff will be in the show notes go follow. Go follow her so you can hear or her say things in Greek more because I and wow you know what I bet she never has to do ask her co-host.

02:13:13.74

Emily

If.

02:13:19.67

Darien

How they say that and you hear the co-host let me look it up and then read the Wikipedia pronunciation guide. Ah you but you've never.

02:13:24.69

Emily

Um, no I still know what you hear is be going. Oh how do you say that hold on I need to look up the ancient Greek spelling. But.

02:13:24.83

Um, a.

02:13:33.34

I'll just look up the um phonetic alphabet and be like oh this is how I say that? Oh great.

02:13:33.67

Darien

It's different. Yeah great great. We're close enough.

02:13:36.45

Emily

I This this funny thing keeps happening now though we're like someone will say a word and whenever like what for recording and then us look at me Nots be like yes the thing is that it's also like ah there's so many.

02:13:47.97

Darien

For your approval.

02:13:54.94

Emily

Um, ways they're pronounced. There's no word. There's no right answers like are you talking ancient greek modern Greek because those are different. Are you talking like old old english classical Oxford from the 1950 s pronunciation like what are we talking modern like what.

02:14:07.34

Darien

No I'm gonna say you say Patrocolus differently than I do and the first time you said it this episode I had a panic where I'm like oh no and I'm just also had to be like I just managed to start saying out without tripping over the consonants in the middle every time I just have to continue to commit. And not overthink the.

02:14:26.17

Emily

Let's look up the greek.

02:14:29.32

Um.

02:14:34.73

Emily

Oh it's a shortdo. Yeah, it's Patroclus petrolas. Yeah, there's.

02:14:37.40

Darien

Hey that's just what that's the way they say it in Hades so I just hear Hades Ahchilles saying his name and I'm like I can do it if I have a sound bite in my head.

02:14:52.13

Emily

Guys say patroclus because that's just how I've heard it. Um but in ancient Greek it would be pronounced patrolos patrolus patrolos that.

02:15:02.86

Darien

Emily thank you so much for educating us on just all the things this has been absolutely fabulous.

02:15:04.86

Um, nice.

02:15:08.43

Emily

Well thank you for letting me talk your ear off I Love the Iliad I still feel like I've barely scratched the surface like there's no much.

02:15:14.96

Darien

Yay I know no I know I know it truly truly. We just we have to um buzz sprout only lets us upload so much audio a month so we have to leave ah listeners. Thank you so much for for listening. Go tell Emily all the amazing.

02:15:26.93

Um.

02:15:31.12

Darien

Things you learned and how fun it was as you follow her and then listen to Matra Dona If you're not already which you should. It's good and we will be.

02:15:39.56

Emily

Yeah, we ah we do a lot of analysis literary analysis see stuffy stuff.

02:15:44.55

Darien

It's very cool and yeah, that is it. We will be back next week to finish off season 5 We're talking about mount olympus.

02:15:53.41

Emily

Oh.

02:15:54.58

It's goingnna be a lot of fun yall and hey do not forget to go to patreon.com for its last mues of mythology and you get a bunch of wonderful bonus episodes every other Thursday we have a lot of fun in them. is it every other thursday is it every other tuesday

02:15:57.56

Darien

Oh I'm so.

02:16:06.21

Darien

Um, well well, it's the but no, it's supposed to be but like it hasn't been.

02:16:06.48

Emily

02:16:12.59

Well, you know you know we've been. We've been getting by but we've been at the very least ah uploading you get you get 72 bonus episodes. How amazing is that also coming up in the next month we got muse myth. It's coming back. You better believe it I'm very excited for it 12 more episodes.

02:16:15.75

Darien

You get bonus episodes that are promised.

02:16:25.73

Darien

12 episodes 12 part daily series.

02:16:31.77

And you are going to get the first one here on your favorite pod catcher. The second one's going to be free on our Patreon when you join for free and then every other episode is going to be available for every tier that is paid. You'll get 10 episodes on top of the 2 free ones. It's going to be great. Be there b square.

02:16:51.56

Darien

Thank you again. Emily listeners. Thank you so much and until next time don't be like Zeus.

02:16:56.20

Don't be like Zeus.

Darien Smartt

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Story 75: Oh My Gods, They Were Roommates (w/ Megs Peterson)

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