Story 96: Do the Norn Believe in Fate?

“Were the Norse a fatalistic people?”

Is this episode Fates 2.0? Not exactly…

Other topics include the Norn as caretakers of the World Tree, which Norn is working two jobs, a more nuisance interpretation of name meanings, and examining Riordan's choice to use the Norn the same way the Fates were used in PJO (we don't love it).

Spoilers for Kingdoms of Amalur, American Gods (novel), Wicked + Divine, and Ys 10.

Content Warning: This episode contains mentions of and conversations about death, fate, suicide, and murder.

Bunker 9 Bonus Episodes available now on Patreon! https://www.patreon.com/musesofmythology

About Us

Muses of Mythology was created and co-hosted by Darien and DJ Smartt.

Our music is Athens Festival by Martin Haene. Our cover art is by Audrey Miller. Find her on Instagram @bombshellnutshellart

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Find us @MusesOfMyth on Instagram. Find all of our episodes and episode transcripts at MusesOfMythology.com

Darien (00:00.172)

Muses of Mythology is a spoiler-heavy podcast. We're going to discuss not just the events of this book, but the Ridenverse as a whole, and really anything that we feel is relevant. You can find full spoiler warnings in the show notes. There's a bite. There's a kitty bite on the book.

That's an understatement.

DJ (00:15.82)

You little bastards.

I'm to

Darien (00:25.336)

you

Darien (00:36.248)

Welcome to Muse of Mythology, a podcast where we explore how ancient myths become part of modern pop culture through the lens of the pride of Magnus Chase and the gods of Asgard. This is story 96, the Norn. I'm your cohost and podcasting muse, Darian Smart. Joining me is my cohost and brother DJ.

as I've been doing to DJ The Muse and I've been playing a lot of COD zombies, but I've taken a break today. Today. To play some Marvel rivals. It came out today and it's just a blast. Yeah, this episode, it's December 5th. See how long it took. It's fine. Don't worry about it. She got sick.

so y'all can definitely timestamp this episode.

Darien (01:08.344)

Daring to edit it.

Darien (01:14.968)

Let's go muse around the garden for a minute.

It's December. It's a new month. are donating once again and we are donating to the beloved Toys for Tots foundation.

It is.

Darien (01:30.475)

No, no, say it the way you said it. Say it way you said it before we started recording.

man, you know them, you love them. It's Toys for Tots. They got a box everywhere you fucking go. No, was everywhere you go. They got a fucking box.

Yep, yes they do and we discussed whether or not we would just go to a store and purchase a Nerf gun for the price drop in there. But then you can just donate to Toys for Tots online. So we will be doing the standard donation because they will be able to determine exactly where they want that money to go.

It's a $20 nerve.

DJ (02:05.166)

Oh yeah, % cash, liquid cash.

Liquid Gash. currently have 10 patrons over on Patreon, so we will be donating an additional $10 out of pocket, making it a round 20. It's a new month, and every month we donate $1 for every patron we have over on Patreon to some organization doing a net good in the world. Saying that just on the off chance this is your very first episode, and you're like, why is this happening? Hey, if it's your first episode, thanks for listening to the Garden segment. I know most of you all don't.

clean $20 bill.

DJ (02:33.07)

Guys, guess what? Muzemus is coming in a week. We got Muzemus coming in a week. I have watched quite a few. You know, I was pleasantly surprised by one of them. I'll say that much.

SHOOT MUSELESS!

Darien (02:41.379)

Yep.

Darien (02:46.88)

Yeah, DJs got a head on the consumption part and I will be doing that crazy. Yeah, Muse Miss will drop the first episode for everyone on the main feed. Second episode is going to be over on Patreon for everybody who wants to listen over there. And after that, it's only for patrons. Yes. But every tier, however much. Just as a thank you for supporting us this year. All bonus episodes for the month of December are the 12th.

Our ten episodes of Muse-ness are the ones that are paid because there is a free tier For you guys will get episode two there

It's true.

Darien (03:18.518)

Yeah, that's what you want. I, here's the thing. I know there are quite a few of you over there on Patreon on the free tier. see the- You're gonna enjoy this. That's a thank you for you as well for supporting us over there and making our Patreon feel spe-

Hey, you're gonna get a wonderful

DJ (03:35.406)

Back to the show.

So DJ, you may recall in the last episode we deemed that this would be Fate's part two. It's not.

Technically, yeah. You just hate to see it. I assume the Norns, that means that they aren't actually fake guys?

Interesting, interesting you say that DJ. DJ, I want you to hold in your head this question as we go through. Were the Norse a fatalistic people? You don't have to answer it right now. I just want you to hold it in your head whilst we go. And if you want to make a guess currently based on, cause we've talked a lot about various-

of it seems like. Because I mean they have it's where everybody kind of knows that like Ragnarok is coming and or Ragnarok has already happened right. So like the the gods know so they like they all accept that fate that's coming to them for the most part. So I imagine their fate gods are much of the same.

Darien (04:33.614)

Interesting. I had not considered Ragnarok. That is a very good point. listeners, you can also hold this question in your head and think about it and whether or not your answer changes over the course of this episode. So, DJ, what do you recall about the Norn in the Magnus Chase?

They show up. Yep. They tell you who your Norse affiliation is Mm-hmm, they tell you how you're going to die in Rat Rock

Yes. Yes. But even more less than that. They only show up the once and it's for Magnus. I also misremembered what

kind of it.

DJ (05:09.812)

is right yeah the the kings yeah the whatever the fuck they the fame yeah

the things for everyone else. They just throw the runes and read. To communicate how big a deal he needs a prophecy. We get a whole ass prophecy with with Magnus here. It's that big of a deal. Yeah, I will even do a reading. And this is right after.

The Norns show up specifically for Magnus.

Darien (05:41.858)

They, this is right after Gunilla tried to sabotage Sam with the altered footage of Magnus on the bridge fighting Surt, where it makes it like obscures his heroic stuff and just highlights the things that were ridiculous. And so, and doesn't show that he died with a weapon in his hand. so, very edited footage.

Edited footage.

Between the roots of the tree, where the waterfall hit the dark lake, a massive bubble erupted. Bloop! On the surface of the water stood three women shrouded in whites. Except for the crackle of the cooling... Except for the crackle of the cooking fire and the sound of the waterfall, the hall was silent. Thousands of warriors watched, frozen in amazement, as the three women glided across the floor heading towards me. Sam, what's going on? The Norns, she said. The Norns themselves have come to read your fate.

This is bad. The Norns only show up in extreme cases.

Did these show up before?

Darien (06:47.798)

Apparently, I don't think we get a sight of the last time the Norns showed up. So the middle Norn, fog collected, solidifying into a half dozen rune stones. She threw them into the air. They floated above her, each rune expanding into a luminous white symbol as big as a poster board. That's how we get the rune of Frey. And so that's how we know his heritage. And then they give a full ass prophecy. Wrongly chosen, wrongly slain. A hero of Ahala cannot contain.

Nine days hence the sun must go east, ere the sword of summer unbinds the beast.

Nice.

And then Sam's like, wait, I couldn't have made a mistake because I was told, I was promised. And then we see Sam gets fired, but they're like, well, Magnus is here now. was Odin. He was so, Odin.

Come to find out it was in.

Darien (07:37.89)

first time we've done that. Yeah, so Sam gets fired, but Magnus is here. So whatever, guess you're here now. And we're just gonna- then they'll just ignore that prophecy. Yeah, we're not gonna do anything about that prophecy. Don't do anything. Whatever.

stuck here dude like

DJ (07:51.81)

Yeah, we don't want the sword to go east. Because it'll for surely free the beast.

Yeah.

Darien (07:57.646)

And so that is the entirety of the Norn. Yeah Unless somebody can remember another time they showed up, but I Pretty sure that's it for the Norn

Come here.

Yeah, couldn't tell ya.

So I've got, you can see DJ, of references of the Norn. And we're going to start where we start 99 % of the time.

You had a lot of references of the norm.

DJ (08:24.622)

Thank you, Nel from the evening.

Ha

I pronounced that wrong.

No, I'm laughing because you are right. When we start with Snorri, it's the gilfeningening. When we start with the poetic Eddas, it's the Vulspa, the seer's prophecy. And so we get a mention of the Aesir, essentially. the first, I'm gonna read you two verses here. The Aesir met on Eidevall Plain. High they built altars and temples. They set up their forges, smiths, precious things, shaped tongs and made tools.

They played checkers in the meadow, they were married, they did not lack for gold at all, until three ogre girls came, all powerful women out of giant land.

DJ (09:10.744)

Are they annoying the yoga girls?

That's why that's what we read first because it's like, what does that mean? And so we're going to go to the footnotes of again, is the Caroline Larrington is the translation we use and her specific note on this of the three ogre girls. Who these girls might be is not clear. They seem to be in, in a miscal and in a, in a mickle. I have never seen, hold on. What is this word? I skipped.

over it.

inimical. inimical. Yeah, I don't know. They seem to be inimical to the gods and their appearance marks the end of the Golden Age. Some critics have identified them as the fates who appear in verse 20. And let me bring us to verse 20 then. I actually must start at verse 19. An ash I know that stands, Ygrosel it's called, a tall tree drenched in shining loam.

inimical.

Darien (10:11.64)

From there the dews fall into the valley. Green it stands, always over Erd's well. From there come girls, knowing a great deal. Three from the lake, standing under the tree. Erd is called one. Verdani another. They carved a wooden ship. Skald the third. They laid down laws. They chose lives for the sons of men, the fates of men. So, these three women come. They're from, they're giantesses, essentially ogre girls.

Thanks.

Darien (10:40.544)

It says, as Larington notes, some scholars have identified them as being the Norn. Not all, but three being very powerful. And also for whatever reason, their arrival, as you said, it is the golden age of the gods. Like everything was super chill. They had everything they needed. They were just playing checkers in the meadow.

Not all. Some of them.

DJ (11:03.022)

Yeah, but then these guys showed up and ruined the party.

And then the fates showed up. yeah, they showed up. Perhaps the Norn showed up knowing the end of all things, knowing the fates for all sons of men. And you gotta ask, why would that put an end to the golden age of the gods?

because suddenly they're bounded by fate.

and they're bound by fate perhaps or like I think the thing you mentioned earlier DJ suddenly they know about Ragnarok and things don't seem quite so fun anymore. So now usually I go through all of one edda before jumping to the other but for the sake of I think the most coherent way to relay the information about the Norn and kind of build this episode I will be jumping over to the Gilfening and Ingne.

Yeah.

Darien (11:46.176)

and giving us little bit of snorries, not abbreviation, presentation, thank you, of the Norn. So it is, a handsome hall stands under the ash tree beside the well. Out of this hall comes three maidens who are called Erd, Fates, Verdandi, Becoming, and Skold, Obligation. These maidens have shaped men's lives. We call them the Norns.

Preparation.

Darien (12:12.654)

Thanks. Very straightforward. It is classic story. is exactly what we have in the other poem, but just a little bit sweetened up a little bit more. Yeah. So we have the Norn. We know they come, they have like the fates and stuff, but they are also in both cases associated with this well at the base of Yidrassal. So I want to elaborate on that a little bit. It's interesting because I thought so too.

It's memer as well.

DJ (12:38.008)

It's not Mimi as well as in yotenheim. Yeah.

That one's somewhere else. This one is actually called urds well who is the name of one of the norm? But I've also seen it like it was supposed to make or weird

I looked up how to pronounce all these names and Yrth was one I remember.

Nice. Yours sounds better. I'll do that. Yeah, it's the problem of them being the English characters and us trying to pronounce it.

Even those Scandinavian characters. Those are a little funky and I'm like, we don't use this shit. But Jorn, are you kidding me?

Darien (13:05.25)

Yeah, sometimes it's just... I don't know, I'm sorry.

Darien (13:13.038)

So in the next chapter which focuses specifically on Yedrasel, we have a little bit more on the Norn and their connection with Yedrasel and it goes, it is also said that those Norns who live beside Yrth's well draw water every day from the spring and that they splash this mixed with mud that lies beside the well over the ash so that its branches do not wither or decay.

The water is so sacred that all things which come into the spring become as white as membrane called skull skin.

Because it's like, sorry, it's like you are and then that D with the thing, right?

Yes, but the thing here, but I've seen it with the thing

The thing is like somewhere between the D and the sound. So Yerth. Yerth. Yerth. Some shit like that. Yeah.

Darien (14:04.238)

It becomes basically becomes as white as the membrane inside an egg shell. Yeah. So this connection of the Norn, not just to the fates and knowing the fate of all living beings, but also as caretakers of the world tree, which I liked that a lot. had not known about that connection between them, not just as beings who live there, but as like caretakers of it.

And I found a passage written by scholar Karen Beck-Peterson, who has written extensively on the Norn. I'm going to reference her a lot in this episode, because she's written a whole book on the Norns, and it's called The Norns in Old Norse Mythology. Let me say, if I could have properly gotten my hands on, if I'd known about this book in advance, I would have probably bought it. Because it's a textbook textbook. It's like a 300 page thing.

I could not just find it online to be able to prove it was like, you've got to reach out to some libraries to try to get this thing gotten to you. sounds, I fortunately was able to find some places where I could read a few passages and was able to identify elements that would help in this episode. And I'm sure if I got my hands on it, there was so much more depth we could have divvied into, but this is where we work with. So to quote her and specifically how she identified the connection or interpreted the connection between

It's all

Darien (15:32.524)

the Norn and Yedrasil, especially how Snorri presents it. Sori describes the Norn as nurturing the tree of life Yedrasil, and the same is implied in Vulpah 19, although there the Norn are not said to be actively tending the tree. Although this active portrayal of the Norn may simply be Snorri's attempt to explain why Yedrasil is said to be watered in white silts in Vulpah 19, it serves to indicate their motherly, life-sustaining aspect, furthering life and ensuring its continued growth.

Nourishing the roots of the tree is an image that conveys rather well, is an image that conveys rather well the power and importance of these underground women. Life depends on them. Beautiful. Yeah, I thought that was a really cool connection I wanted to highlight because I think it is a distinct difference between the Norn

Thanks.

Darien (16:26.774)

and the fates in Greek mythology, where we have the concept of like the fates and they spin the wheel and they spin the course of their life. But the element of the Norn caring for the world tree and life relying on them is something that I felt was distinct to the way the Norn are portrayed. I would not necessarily say the fates are ever given that same kind of deference nurturing. Like feeling as if the fates support

difference.

Darien (16:55.01)

the life, it feels like more often than not the fates are just ensnaring it. Yeah, just recording it. it. Yeah. Or they're dictating it, this component of building from life springing from caring it, nurturing it, feels more compassionate, in a sense, than I feel like the Greek fates often ever portrayed as. One last thing that I wanted to, not one last thing, there's a lot of things I want to talk about, but one last thing for this initial introduction of the Norns.

is this element of skulls, who I actually mentioned in the last episode. And I don't know how I missed this pretty major detail in the last episode where we talked about the Valkyries, but I did. How very silly of me.

Which one of these tabs?

Which one? Which book? Which tag? So, let me just read this passage for...

Refresher. Refresher.

Darien (17:54.04)

And this is again from the Gilfennigining. This is from the chapter Valkyries and Goddesses. These women are called Valkyries. They are sent by Odin to every battle where they choose which men to die and they determine who has the victory. Gunn and Rhoda and the youngest Norn named Skald always ride to choose the slain and decide the outcome of the battle. She works two jobs. This woman.

She works two jobs.

Darien (18:20.138)

So somehow I missed the fact that Snorri says one of the Valkyries is also one of the Norns. Massive oversight on my fault. I apologize. That's huge. Now I would love to deliver more information and tell you what the scholars think of us, but like weirdly, it's just in the sources I could find to pull from, mentioned.

Yeah, Norn was also a Valkyrie.

But I couldn't find any writings on scholars who spent time reflecting. I'm sure Beck Patterson has, but I just unfortunately. You know what? That's a great question, Because I did want to look it up and see what did I say that Skuld meant. No, what was that? I actually was like trying to remember. like, wait, which one did that mean? Because they all meant something. We talked about it. That or future. Yep. There it is. OK. That's interesting. And I'm like, what?

Was that one obligation?

Darien (19:14.082)

does it say that, and again, this is a snory thing. It's not cited anywhere else, so we don't know where he's pulling this from. And then there was some thought that the Norn and then the Valkyries are all just like remnants of this one type of female spirit. But I also found some other scholars arguing that that's not the case, and that's just like a widespread misinterpretation of it. And I don't know enough about this argument to chime in either way, but I it was interesting, because I found that a lot in the different female spirits, or

female-like figures that are they're just a more complex version of, or they're later version of this idea. This is the first time I've encountered the fact that some scholars are like, no, that's not it. That's not.

It's just not true. These people are crazy.

So, but DJ, you hit exactly on the next thing I actually wanted to talk about, which is what their names mean.

awesome.

Darien (20:10.978)

So Earth and Verdandi are from an old Norse word that means to become, essentially. For Earth, could be like the quote, that which became or happened. Whereas Verdandi is more of a present tense, that which is happening, which makes gold.

to be.

yet need or shall be or ought to be, or which should become or what needs to occur.

So our three Christmas spirits Yet to come!

conceivably do a Norse take on it in which the Norns play the Christmas spirit. Wow, look at that tie in. News me, about our days.

DJ (21:05.89)

You better believe it. It's great.

So there are some translations that say, it means past, present, and future. But a number of scholars have argued against this chronological interpretation. And essentially saying that, cementing them as if they are meant to establish elements of time is a complete misunderstanding of the Norse relationship to these speakers. And so we find this in a couple sources. So first I want to tell you about the Nornic Family Book.

Which DJ this is a Swedish encyclopedia published between 1876 and 1993. whole version is available digitally online. They have an entry for Norn obviously and I'm going to read you the part where it talks about the three Norns names specifically. The name Earth is used in a sense of misfortune of which it is a personification and belongs together with Verdandi which is the verb Bruda and became.

Wonderful.

Darien (22:09.196)

like debt to school. The names thus allude to the future which fate's decision must refer to and there is no su- wait, what? Hold on, what is the sentence?

It's a translation. patient, everybody.

The names thus allude to the future, which fate's decision must refer to. And there is no support in either matter or name for mindless division, that erd would also be the norma of past, verdandi of present, and skald only of the future. So the line I want to underline is, that was, again, weird because it is, again, translating 19th century Swedish into English for me. But that underline of that it's not.

It's a little struggle, bless.

mindless division. it specifically is like it does not mean that Erda means of the past and for Dandy is only the president's school does only of the future.

DJ (23:01.622)

a little more of a Venn diagram, if you will.

Kind of, kind of. Rebecca Patterson also gets her hand on the ball here. It's essentially she also argues that the names do not stand for past, present, and future. Earth and Skuld are older names with a far broader range of connotations, where Verdandi seems to be a quote, ad hoc invention formulated precisely to complete the chronological sequence. And it's not actually very old. So there's also an argument that

Verdanti was added later to make a connection of these two where they're perhaps wouldn't be which wouldn't be unusual because there are times where it's like why does

Why do we care about a God for the present?

Yeah, why does the eagle have a name and not the falcon? Yeah. Right? And all of that is very interesting. But I was having the hardest time gaining a clear understanding of what that actually was saying. And so I want to point to mythologist and author Henning Kier, because I read about his interpretation of this. And I think it...

Darien (24:12.758)

most it then it was most concise in articulating what the Norns names were perhaps intended to represent. Yeah. So rather than being a connotation with time, it's more about the context of should. Right. And kind of the obligation of something.

Right? Like, urd can mean fate and death. Yeah. Whereas radandi is like things that are in being, almost like birthing and stuff. And the skull is specifically like that idea of future and debt is more just like what you should do, what someone ought to do. What is their responsibility to do in a given situation?

And so it's not moments in time. It's not chronological. It is a state of being separate from.

Darien (25:21.59)

just an existent at a certain date, right? Like if we have the concept of like fate and death and then becoming beginning with the other two and that could almost feel like, beginning and end, with, really want to emphasize like the concept of should and scold not necessarily being like what will happen, what should happen. And the idea of what should happen comes with a lot of cultural

show.

Darien (25:50.574)

context and expectation because when we say this should be how things are done, this is how you expect things to be done.

very much so like a subjective thing too compared to where you are in like the world or your life.

Yeah, so yeah, if you say like what should I do in a given situation that's layers a lot on the overall expectations and requirements

Exactly, Like, you are expected to behave in a certain thing. And if we tie that to the Norn, to this concept of these are the beings of fate, they weave together, like, your men's lives. And the idea that what we should do is part of that, that makes that normativity gives it a sense of, deeper inherent. Like, this isn't just...

We say it because we say it. We say it because if you behave as you should, that is the right and orderly way for one to exist.

Darien (26:51.328)

And I felt that was very interesting, being able to stag, think, because again, talking about the fates in Greek mythology, where their names translate specifically to like the one who spins, the one who cuts, right? The one who measures. Those ones are very much like inherent to like this space of life and they feel like very defined. Whereas the Norns are likely not meant to be quite that defined and a little bit more of like abstract elements of.

to interpretation of these time things.

Yes. So I want to go back to the poetic, Anna, and we're going to jump into another poem that I think you're going to find very interesting, DJ. All right. So this is the first poem of Helgi, a Hunden's Bonnie. OK. And it starts with. His birth, it was at the start of time that the eagle shrieked, the sacred waters poured from him and fell. Then Helgi, the strong minded man, was born to Brogild in Brawland.

Night fell on the estate and then came the Norns, those who shaped fate for the prince. They said that the war leader should be the most famous and that he'd appear the best of princes. They plied very strongly the strand of fate and as the strongholds were breaking in Brawland, they prepared the golden threads and fastened it in the middle under the moon's hall.

It goes on a little longer, but they showed up when this incredible important prince, this hero was born. but DJ, that was Helge, right? That's the guy. What if I told you that it's not just because he was a big important prince that Helge, that they showed up at Helge's birth. What if I told you that the Norns show up at every birth? Yeah.

DJ (28:23.928)

Zogie.

DJ (28:44.462)

No one's just always there. They are in that operating room with you. You don't know. You don't see them, but they are there.

And so it literally says, there are yet more Norns, those who come to each person at birth to decide the length of one's life, and they are related to the gods.

I just roll like a D100. It's lightly weighted to like higher, you know, ages, but one, ee.

Yeah. What's gonna happen? see.

Darien (29:17.326)

So, Norns show up not just for a big hero, but for everyone. And did you catch what I said there? That there are more Norns. Because DJ, it's not just the three. If I may read the rest of that sentence. So it said, and these are related to the gods. Others are descended from the elves. A third group comes from the dwarves, as it is said here.

Yes.

Darien (29:45.954)

And then we have a verse from the Leia Fafnir that I'm gonna bounce over to real quick because I prefer to keep my translations consistent. In the Leia Fafnir Sigurd has just slain the dragon Fafnir and Fafnir conjures the Norn and he says to him

I would live this long.

Essentially, he says, the Sphafnir is dying, the Norn's judgment will get you in the sight of land and the fate of a fool. You'll drown in the water even if you row in a breeze. All is dangerous for the doomed man. Essentially saying, you'll get closer to home, but you'll drown with land and sight. And I'm not, he's just saying, this isn't how Sigurd dies.

It is nigh-droughty, close to hope.

But since he mentioned the Norn, Sigurd said, tell me Fafnir, you are said to be wise and to know a great deal. Which are these Norns who go to help those in need and bring children forth from their mothers? Fafnir said, from the very different drives I think the Norns come. They are not all of the same kin. Some spring of the Aesir, some from the Elves and some of the daughters of Dothlenn, which are the dwarves. And again, that's super interesting that there are

DJ (30:51.5)

next.

Darien (30:59.022)

of different Norns and they come from different lineages to be the beings and it feels like a Valkyrie gig almost. We have the Valkyries who are the ones that for Odin ride to the battlefield and decide the men who when they die will come to Valhalla.

Look at the babies and decide how long they live.

how long they live or what their fate will be or what their is. Yeah, basically that. What it'll be made of.

of. Instead of grabbing a guy who's at the end of his life, they predict the life of a newborn child. Yeah. Newbile baby.

new bibbis. And so that was also super interesting how we have the Norn who are there's a ton of different ones, not just our big three, but the big three are the ones that get names. But then there's a ton and they all show up for everybody. Not just a big old hero. Nice. Which makes it very interesting that we decided that the Norn were only going to show up for Magnus and that's a big deal. And it does.

DJ (32:05.186)

Yeah, we're

feel if we look to, if you recall the first Percy Jackson book, how Percy literally sees the Fates sewing a giant sock, it does feel very much like we are using the Norn in the same way Rick used the Greek Fates and the Oracle of Delphi.

could very well be he is not a scholar in Norse mythology.

No he's not, that's okay. That's not what we critique for. We critique them for picking the worst sources to use to build your summer Valkyrie goddess off of you bad-

Yeah, he definitely could have done that one a little better there, but...

Darien (32:46.104)

So I thought that was very interesting. Where it feels like...

I mean, he already dropped the ball in giving us interesting Valkyrie stuff, so why would I expect us to be creative with like, what if we had a Norn character? Yeah, just this Norn-

Is this the norm showing like I got you got picked to be a fuck I got picked to be a norm I Look at babies all day, dude. Yeah, I look at babies and there's this fucking tally counter that I push as many times I

I don't know

Darien (33:16.078)

I don't like that. Or if instead of reading the runes, it is like a Norn who is present, who is the one doing it. And then when the big three Norns show up to read Magnuses, it's like, they're the caretakers of the well. They don't usually show up for just anybody. That one, I feel like, OK, we can have that. But like, I don't know what

cool if we had like a Norn character who was hanging out and they sometimes see, that may have been a little bit too close to like Rachel Elizabeth there. So, we will say this, prophecies? That doesn't seem to really be a thing.

It's not much of a Norse thing. The process we get to prophecies really is just Ragnarok. Ragnarok's gonna happen. Magnus Modai live.

is gonna happen and that's not a prophecy that's a fact

Darien (34:05.516)

Yep, and you don't even have to know, like, there's no room for interpretation. There's no like, the sun will go east. no. Yep, Odin's gonna get eaten by a wolf. Loki and Heimdall are gonna kill each other.

Three big chickens crow.

DJ (34:25.197)

Thor kills Jormungandr

after nine steps. And then, but it's okay, Baldur's gonna come back with his brother, Baldur and Han will come back at the end and everything will be fine. Baldur's big shit went.

Big chilling.

You

So, so yeah, that's not like a prophecy. That's just a straight fact. And we have all the details. So, so we go over when the Norns are mentioned and they're mentioned a lot. Usually though, not as a specific character doing an action. Those examples I have given to you already. the times when they are other times mentioned is usually they're just being s-

DJ (34:50.584)

Yeah.

DJ (35:05.271)

Yeah.

Darien (35:12.778)

It's a mythic figure citing the Norns as being responsible for some dreadful things they have done or must do.

Curse you, Norns. Why did you make me slaughter that orphanage?

Essentially. So if we want to skip back to not skip back, we're to go to the second poem of Helgi, Hundens Bonnie. So we have Sigrun, who is the Valkyrie that Helgi is in love with, who, as we talked about in the last episode, she was put in. She was like engaged to a man she is deemed not worthy of her. So Helgi rides up and goes to battle. So when she sees him, she runs to.

Greet him! And Helge has to deliver some bad news! was not all good fortune for you, strange creature, though I reckon the Norns had some part in it. This morning at Thrakenstein, Brage and Hogney were killed. I was their slayer. This is Sigrun's dad and brother. Shhh! Because they were on opposing sides of this conflict!

Yeah.

DJ (36:21.026)

You hate to see it.

Then we have the site like the Norn Spirit Woman who determined fate. He also mentions, her a strange creature, which is the term used for Vold's Swan Maiden wife and her sisters in the poem of Vold, which I think is what I mentioned. So I didn't clock that the previous time. It's another interesting Valkyrie thing. But yeah, so he mentions how.

Yeah, the swan made this.

Darien (36:46.978)

This bad thing happened. The Norns were a part of it, but he was the one that killed them. Another time we'll see the Norns referenced in this manner is in the Lay of Region. And this is the one where Loki is sent to go find a bunch of treasure to pay back a king who was keeping the Aesir prisoner because they killed an otter who turned out to be the king's son. So Loki's like, well...

Okay.

I've heard of this shapeshifting dwarf that has like a shit ton of treasure and like a cursed ass ring. So I think I'm gonna go do that. So he does. So this is the sort of the poem with Loki has captured our fish friend and Darvi is talking to him. What sort of fish is that which courses through the water and doesn't know how to avoid danger? Your head can say from hell and find the serpent's flame for me. Essentially being like, hey, I'm gonna kill you unless you tell me where the dragon treasure is.

And Vari is my name, Oyn was my father's name. I've swum through many a fall. A wretched Norn shaped my fate in the early days that I must wade in water. And so again, we have another side of like, yeah, this thing happened to me, but it's the Norn's fault. Did you remember And Vari? course I do. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, kind of a-

He's a

Darien (38:11.806)

say to someone being like, the norm did this. And I'm like, you are in this situation based on your. Like, it's interesting. And so then we have several other instances of this, and I'm not going to read you all of the, the verses of those ones, because I don't think that will be particularly interesting for you, for me, or for the audience. But I do want to give you an oversight of this because they're fascinatingly connected to each other. And so it's the norms being voked to reference someone's misfortune.

You're a red bastard,

Darien (38:41.3)

specifically the misfortune that has come about based on this character's own actions. So in the short lay of Sigrund, the Valkyrie Brunnhilde blames the Norn for her love of Sigrund, who is married at this time, by the way. And the wedding of Gundren, Gundren cites the Norn's wrath after she has killed her husband and her sons in vengeance for them killing, I think Sigurd's

brother after Sigurd's brother killed... Basically, she's like, this horrible thing. Yeah. And the lay of Hamdir, Gundren's son, Sorli, went to avenge his sister's death. Now he faces death himself at the hands of the king who, you he was going to go fight and remarks on the cruel nature of the Norns. So all three of these examples are... And there's a couple more that...

cycle of violence.

Darien (39:39.04)

or in between these, I just found a little less like strong, but all of them are essentially leading one into the next. Each are a direct result of the character bemoaning the situation they are in, that is the result of them taking action in response to another character's actions. And so...

The other thing about that though is that their responses we can interpret as actually being reasonable in the scope of Norse culture. Well, not Brunhild. Not what she did. We're not supposed to think her whole thing was reasonable. Like, she's Mary's, Sigurd's brother, and decides nah, so she gets Sigurd killed and then takes her own life. That's the whole thing. We're not supposed to think that that's

You look crazy.

Darien (40:33.268)

up and up although we did talk about her on the hell episode and how she just goes to hell to be resigna again and it's like okay

Weirdum? I guess.

I don't know comment on that. I don't know how to interpret that. I don't have the cultural context, but

So she does that, which results in these other dudes doing this other thing, which would have been like that. We have to do this now because honor and justice and a blood debt. And then Gundren does something because she was this, she was like her, she was the sister of the man that they killed. So she avenges him by killing them. And that sucks, but that was what she had to do. That's what she should do. And now.

when the son is bemoaning the fact that he's in the situation, it's because he went to avenge his sister. And now this is not going well for him. Not because he was wrong to go avenge his sister, just because this dude ended up being way higher level than he was prepared for, essentially. And I think that is another marker that indicates the difference between the Norn and the Greek Fates.

Darien (41:38.284)

Because when you'll have instance of the, someone bemoaning what the fates have done and how the cruel fates have set it up, it is often because yes, sometimes they have made choices that got them into this mess.

this mess was lined up so crazy. Yes. Like how could you ever actually think something like this would happen? Specifically like how could Oedipus ever know he killed his father to marry his mother when he was like an orphan. Yeah. the fate said he would. And it's like, it's a crazy setup.

That he would.

Darien (42:10.168)

And it's like the...

because he was not acting with all of the information. There's a layer of dramatic irony where the audience knows more than the character does, or like, I'm sure Odysseus bemoans the fates for his long journey, and it's not Odysseus' fault. Some of the things he made...

some places like this man was blown all over the Mediterranean Sea yeah

What really is the plaything of the gods in this element?

Darien (42:38.542)

And even when he does the things that you would argue as like, that was the correct thing to do, it still just doesn't fucking work out for him.

You cannot believe that his fucking, that his, like, crew opened that fucking bag. Yeah, damn it! They were right there! For real, you didn't even have to!

or ate the horses or the cows. I also would have left beside you while I'm done. I tried real hard. So the. It's like there is a distinct difference where it's like in Greek, it's like, the fates have set things up that you could not have possibly you. also they never have all the information. Whereas it feels like with these characters in Norse mythology.

Fuck you guys! Are you kidding me?

Darien (43:26.626)

There.

with all the information but they just don't understand where it's actually

In case of Brunhilde, she did do some shady shit and not everybody had all the facts. She didn't mean to, but all the other ones following her were like this is they didn't know why this happened, but they did know these are the things that happened. And now I have to respond to that. These are the things that happened and now I respond to that. And now things suck for me because I responded to this in a way that I had to. And that brings us back to the concept of ought to, should.

Did and I did that and that was the thing I had to do but now I am in misery and now it's like the Norns have crafted this fate to me What else could I have done but followed this fate because it is what I should have done Yeah, and I did also is like does that make sense? Okay, okay, I realized the words coming out of my mouth and I'm like

Like it's, it's a little, but it's also like, cause like it's like a little twisty tourney, it's, it's specifically like, Hey, this situation you're in the way that you're supposed to respond. Like if I was, don't know if somebody like it pushed me in the store, the way I'm supposed to respond is, who gives a shit. I don't care. Right. That's for me. was like, I don't, I don't give a shit. Fuck, fuck off. And then that would be the Norn of ought to be.

Darien (44:19.086)

DJ did a hand motion there.

DJ (44:43.571)

You ought to respond like, don't give a fuck. You walk away. whatever comes after is due to the norm of that.

Yeah, exactly. Whereas if he's like, you're in a culture of someone bumps you, you should turn around and fight back. And then all of a sudden this person turns out to be like.

jujitsu master like oh fuck

And it's for you, but you still did what was perceived as being the thing you should have done. And I think that's a just, yeah, exactly. That's a great, thank you, DJ. was like, am I making sense? I don't know, we're getting a little esoteric.

the consequences of your actions, but you did exactly what you were supposed to to get here.

Darien (45:20.814)

Yes, like this is the consequences of your own actions. And when they say like, oh, this is like a, this is the path that Noren set out for me. It does not read to me as if they are blaming some other mythical divine entity for their suffering in the same way that you would feel like.

Darien (45:44.846)

was like, this is the path that the Norn put out for me and I could only do this. But I still chose all these things and had all the information. Let's remember. So I think I like the way they put it. was always their choice to take action with the information they had. Like they did make informed decisions based on cultural expectations that got them there. And so with all of that in mind,

What do we understand about the Norse concept of fate via their beliefs about the Norn? Circling back, do we view the Norse as being fatalistic? In perhaps the same way we would interpret ancient Greece.

Not the same way we interpret ancient Greece, but that is probably due to that fact of the fates being what's going to happen versus what ought to happen.

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think so too. We have, again, Beck Patterson has an interesting, I didn't get to read this section of her, but I got to read Caroline Larrington's review of her book. So we're a couple layers out. But the way she identifies it.

Okay.

DJ (46:57.994)

We're a little removed.

Darien (47:03.586)

The brief conclusion draws the book's findings neatly together, emphasizing the prevalence of the concept of fate in Old Norse by no means characterizes its culture or its heroes as fatalistic. The invocation of the Norse when a hero finds himself facing difficult choices in matters of personal reputation tends to occlude for the speaker, if not for the audience, the cultural imperatives of face and vengeance. So as we're saying, you have to do this to save face.

because and you have to seek vengeance because that is your how you say face it is the result of

That's how you say FAKE.

Darien (47:40.962)

personal choice, again, the ex-cultural expectation. And I really liked how author NH Kerr worded it. Fate does not indicate absolute predetermination, but rather the potential in each life. So when the Norns come and they are putting together what a life is, perhaps it is not meant to understand like they are without weaving the tapestry of every little detail, every little moment, every little story.

but they have like, is the potential of what could become with you if you do as you should and you ought to. We know at the start, we know how things you brought into being, there will be a death. And in between that is potential, is what is culturally expected, is what other beings around you will respond to and how you are expected to respond in

It's really neat and that's why I was like, I don't feel like fate 2.0 is correct. It's more of a fate reboot.

So that actually does it it's interesting. Mm hmm. Shall we jump into pop culture? Please DJ. So this is just me to get a little redemption on our last episode because I remembered a topic that I really wanted to bring up. It's a game called the Kingdoms of Amalor. And it is it's an RPG game and it's like specifically the story is based around fate, right?

Please, leave the-

Darien (49:03.926)

yeah.

Darien (49:11.16)

like that.

Your character dies at the start of the game and ends up in this thing called, think, with the Well of the Living, with the Well of the Dead. can't, maybe the Well of Souls. Can't quite remember. But your character comes back alive and then you get to choose like three different choices for the way you want to go, which is warrior, rogue ranger, mage. In this game, your character specifically no longer has a tapestry of f-

school.

Darien (49:38.776)

Yes, my God, I remember this. Yeah, when you, that's so, yes, our listeners don't know this, but there was one version of the show where we were gonna do a list of all the things we wanted to talk about pop culturally and then revisit it at the end of the season. And we just never did. But literally, this is something DJ told me about years ago after we recorded this episode. He's like, I forgot this really cool thing.

Never got around

DJ (49:58.124)

Because it's it and one it's a fantastic game. Mm-hmm so much fun. The RPG elements are really killer one of the DLCs you can get a manor and married. It's awesome But in the game there are these like people these They have just like the role is called a fate weaver. don't weave fate, but they read your fate Yeah, they can see like your tapestry of fate and what you're destined to do and when it ends and like that

So when you come in contact with the first one, he's like, where is it? It's gone. What are you, like, what's going on here? We've got to figure this out. And so you kind of do shenanigans. Do shenanigans. Yeah, like fate stuff. It's really funny. You keep interrupting fate, which is really funny because you do not have a fate no more. You are disconnected from the system. Yeah. So you're going around fucking with everybody else's fate. There's a fake court that is, that there's the two sides.

I can't remember what they were called, maybe like court of night, court of day, you know, standard. And it's, they are constantly like pretty much replaying missions on loop where these guys know that they're going into a battle they're going to die in against the court of night and the court like vice versa. They're constantly in a loop that's like thousands of years long. And they've redone it.

Thousands of times at this point. They just know they're going to die. They know they're going to come back your character steps and is like well I'm here And he cuts it he stops it the like the lube stops and the one guy who's supposed to has like what the

Yeah, I'm here now. are you gonna?

DJ (51:43.276)

this wasn't supposed to happen. Yeah, it's it's I think one of the first ones you do it to is a guy who had said when I get back and like proposed to the love of my life. Yeah. And you save him from dying. He was he was destined to die. You save him. It's great. And then the later on in the game, you actually fight like an ogre. That's meant that is again, fated to kill.

That's so interesting.

DJ (52:11.458)

the fate weaver from the start of the game. save him. It's like you just saved my life. I was supposed to die. I'm going to stick next to you because I don't know what's going on anymore.

This is great. This is wild. What happens to their fates once you intervene?

It's open. no longer have the tapestry of. It's really cool. Big fan of game. It had a remake around the time that we did our episode. I just never got around to playing it, but it is one of my favorite RPG games. Super fun. Big fan.

Yo, interesting. I was wondering, yeah, okay.

Darien (52:44.47)

Nice. That sounds really cool. I like that concept a lot. I that's really neat.

That's just so cool.

I, surprise, surprise, don't have a lot of examples of the Norns specifically. But I got two from media that I have personally engaged with. There were lots of, like, was like a couple anime ones or a couple other references, but also like God of War, obviously the Norns roll up in that one. And I did a brief skim and I'm like, I don't find this one interesting enough to deep dive into the way I was like, we haven't played this game, but I want to talk about the Valkyries. So first.

crazy

Darien (53:24.642)

We've got Wicked and Divine, which is a comic series by Karen Gillan, which I was a huge fan of and never actually finished, but I need to, where the premise, and I've talked about this one, it's been a long time since I've talked about Wicked and Divine.

Yeah, I got her to talk about it during my Dionysus episode when she forgot.

Yeah, I did forget. I think this is last time I talked about Wicked and Divine. Basically, the premise is there's this cycle called the recurrence. Every 90 years, 12 young people are essentially the reincarnations of some deities of some sort. There's repeats, but it's always a different lineup. they're like...

was in our Persephone episode.

I think I did, because she's a And so she are incredibly powerful. have godlike abilities, typically embraced. And this one, it's like 2010, so they're very pop stars. But in two years, they're all dead. They just burn out, essentially. And so you have this one character who is a reporter, and she is like, this is all bullshit. Like, I don't believe that this is real. This is nah. And so she is...

Darien (54:33.866)

around a lot just trying to like figure out like what's really going on anyway she turns out to be one of the Norn. So she rolls up and she's I think it's Earth and then she's got a her like assistant or a photographer her photographer and like her assistant or her like camera gal or something but they're the other two so the three of them are the Norn and they make up the 12th god of the the pantheon.

No, not.

Darien (55:02.558)

And that's roughly when I fell off. Now, did I in fact go through the Wicked and Defined Wiki and read the entire character synopsis and also everything that happens? Yeah. So I finally know how Wicked and Defined is. I absolutely do want to finish it. I was really close. But that's cool. This, even with the Norn ability, they're still a little bit like, I don't believe this is on the up and up. Okay.

Fully trust what's going on here.

convinced there's still more to this. I have these crazy powers, but I'm not, I'm still not, absolutely. Their scene where her name is Cassandra, her name was Cassandra and she was anorn is very good. But the scene where she is awakened is pretty sweet when she's confronting Arachne who, what Arachne?

It could be smoking mirrors, dude.

Darien (55:59.566)

who is like the keeper, like this old woman who's like the keeper of all of them. And she's like confronting and she's been like, oh, but I've been waiting for you. And then she's like comes and it's she's like in the norm form. And she's like, and do you know who they are? She's like, oh, yes, they're then Rodanian skull. And it was really weird, but like in the best way. So that's pretty cool. And then the second one I have for you all is American Gods. Nice. And yes, fuck Neil Gaiman.

But I do want to talk about American Gods briefly because the Norns are pretty interesting here. And so they are never precisely named as the Norn because Shadow doesn't know she's the protagonist Shadow. He doesn't know that's what they are. But that's what they are. Right. He's running around with Mr. Wednesday, who is Odin. And it's a bunch of crazy stuff he's got to deal with. This poor guy didn't ask for any of this.

That's what.

Darien (56:53.602)

But these three nameless women, and they're described as being sisters, they help Shadow and Laura, his wife, after the death of Mr. Wednesday. First by tying Shadow to the great ash tree so he can sit vigil for Mr. Wednesday after he died. And then later they give Laura the waters of time, which helps our poor zombie girl immensely. And they're weird, and it's American God, so it's all kind of weird. Nothing's really clear. But I liked that.

just as them being like caretakers of the ash tree and being the ones who, and it's really important, like once Laura has like gotten the water of time, she knows exactly, it's like, I know exactly what I need to do to help Shadow. And she does, and she turns the tide of the whole situation for the better for Shadow, things were gonna end pretty poorly for him. And then Shadow, he does have to like hold vigil for this and he does have to go through the experience and they felicitate his ability to do so. But what I also really liked is while Shadow is tied to the ash tree,

He senses Earth, who is the giantess guarding the waters of time beneath the tree. Nice. So I liked this element, the incorporation of the Norn as the three, but also this other element of this other Norn figure who is also part of the tree, but is like the giant. And I feel like that captured concepts of the Norn in a way that I thought were specifically very interesting.

And that's is all I have.

10 also had some fun fate stuff. A lot of prophecy, kind of. It's weird. There is like a, the trifecta is what they're called because there's three of them. Let me actually pull up the names. I think one of them, one of them, think is like, heard of.

Darien (58:44.244)

EF's just like pulled names for flavor, but will not commit to consistency.

Yeah. So you got Yurdeth, Logur, and Odur? Huh. Their names weren't at all. They're just a three person crew. Yurdeth being lust, Logur being apathy, and Uther being wrath. Interesting. Or no, pride. Pride. Yeah, it's supposed to be...

Interesting combo.

A fellow was born. What the fuck was his name? God damn it. Rollo. This guy named Rollo was born and he just had immense anger and rage. And he showed up at a throne that was supposed to like, you know, grant him a wish. And he's like, well, I everything. But the keeper of the phone is like, that's not what you want. Who are you? And.

it sends Rollo into just a spiral. For a year, goes off to figure something out and he comes back and the keeper of the throne is like, okay, are you ready? He's like, I just want to be a normal human. And when he sits on the throne, those three spawn from him being the negative emotions. And then they were sealed away for a hundred years. And then, you know, they start wreaking havoc and that's the events of the game. But the fate thing actually comes from,

DJ (01:00:15.138)

meeting Karja for the first time. And when they fight for a second, they're about to walk away, but then they get tied by the thing called the threat of fate. Classic. And it's what is the duo mechanic in the game? It's really fun. They can like combo off each other, do really powerful duo moves. fan. I thought it felt really clean. Come to find out spoilers, y'all. It's the mana of Karja's mom.

who's been like holding them together with her will, you know, and just like, like you guys need this kind of support right now. So I'm helping you like give feelings back and forth. And it's like a really touching moment when that comes to light and it's absolutely keynote. Yeah, she comes out right as a, what is it? Karja turns out to be a descendant from Rolo and every time she kills one of the trifecta, she absorbs them in order to bring back Rolo.

in a support system.

Darien (01:01:12.927)

okay.

And her dad knows this knew this all along didn't tell her and was going down to going down to kill her Oh shit, because you can't have this motherfucker rolling around. He was trouble he was So When the mom revealed herself like The hell you doing dude This is ridiculous. This is your daughter. This is me. What the hell's wrong with you? You know better just talk about it. I'm like

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

DJ (01:01:43.352)

You're right. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It's just been a long, you know, struggling. I'm not doing it's service. It's a very touching scene.

sure. That's interesting. like that threat of fate. Sometimes it's fate. I fate is literally someone decided this is what's going to happen. Sometimes it's mom manna. like

Super good. I'm a big fan of the E series. If you guys want to check it out, I highly recommend it. Nice. Super good.

like this. I did find, would have remiss if I didn't mention it, I was trying to figure out if they were like, and they're probably scholarly writings on like the Norse and the, because sometimes like the idea of them having threads or like weaving and that's an element where they're like similar to the Greek. But sometimes they don't like weave, sometimes they're like more like ropes and binding that kind of thing. Sometimes it's runes, so it is different. I did find a couple sources that

theorize that the reason we have like those three Norns specifically is kind of an attempt to Equate it to the Greek having the three specific like goddesses of fate. Yeah

DJ (01:02:55.596)

I definitely believe that.

Simultaneously, three powerful feminine figures doing important stuff is like a staple of Western mythology. like, why? And the answer is we don't know. Like, it's just why is it three? Of course it's three. And then it'll just cite three more examples of three. And it's like, that's not helpful. I have no idea. No idea why is it three? Why is it three Gorgons? Why is it three Furies? Why is it three Fates? Why is it three Norns?

to that.

DJ (01:03:16.686)

It's like, but like, why are those three?

Darien (01:03:25.998)

What a great question. Who knows? Why is it the three Valkyries that Snorri mentions specifically as being the ones who ride with... I couldn't tell. Well, because it's always three. It's always three. But yeah, so I wanted to mention that there is some theory that maybe having the three specifically named Norn is like the Nornic belief of the Norn getting folded into concepts and ideas about the Greek fates.

Who knows?

DJ (01:03:35.566)

There's three.

Darien (01:03:55.754)

Yeah. Because, know, we know Snorri like to try to anchor it to Troy and the Iliad and things like that. So that's not completely out of pocket. But it is also mentioned in like the Vullspa. So I didn't want to like not mention that that's a theory and then have folks be like, well, this is a thing. But it did seem like of the research I was able and capable of doing, it didn't seem like a big thing. Like, there's not a lot of concrete that this is definitely why there's three. Yeah. And it is entirely possible that it is.

Just because it's following the rule of three again.

is full of fruit. Sometimes it just happens.

Yeah. just do it.

I really liked getting to dive into the Norn and finding how very distinctly different they are. I think it is, sometimes I think we get to do an episode which gives us a lot of like interesting insight into like kind of trying to scrape past the dust and like get to understand the Norse culture as it was better. And we don't have a lot of that. And I think this episode informs

Darien (01:05:00.608)

A lot of these stories that we've already talked about and we'll talk about as we wrap up this season in a way that I didn't appreciate before. Yeah. Yeah. And I think we have Ragnarok we can see in a different way, especially when we have a concept of like, this is what should happen. And all the things that lead up to Ragnarok is everybody responding to certain things that have already.

happened in like Baldur's death being the thing that of course we met at Loki. Of course Loki wants to get revenge. Of course you're going to fight. Of course you do this because this is what you should do now that this has happened. And that makes it less of the fates decree that this is how it'll all end and more just like this is the way society is structured. This is the way it ends because this is how you should respond to these things that have happened to you.

Very good. Big fan. That's a lot of fun. Yeah.

And it also challenges, think, sorry, I we're trying to wrap up, but I'm like, I feel like, it just also like challenges the way the Ragnarok and Norse are presented in the Magnus books as being like this is simply an, I feel like the Magnus books really interpreted it as being very fatalistic. Like, well, we have to tie Loki back up exactly as he was before, because that's what must happen, because that what will happen to Ragnarok.

Get more thoughts.

Darien (01:06:29.27)

Whereas I think there is likely room for, because Loki has done this, now we will do this thing. And he will likely still escape in the end, but it... It's just different. It's more like we should respond because this is how we are meant to respond. Whereas I think at the end, there is a little bit of like, this is kind of silly that y'all are just like, well, one day it'll be this way and that we can't stop it, rather than an acknowledgement of like, this is how we have to save face. This is how we will respond. Like, because Loki escaped, we must...

is different.

Darien (01:06:59.374)

punish him or I don't know. I don't know. It is a little bit like I feel like Rick Riordan portrays Norse the Norn, Ragnarok and fate as being fatalistic in a way that I think there was perhaps more wiggle room to examine the nuance of it. And now I will release this from this episode. On thank you so much for your patience on this episode being delayed. It's not something I want to make a habit of.

Thank you so much for joining us.

Darien (01:07:28.778)

You know, a bit B that way. Well, I also was depressed. I also fully admit, fully d- Yes, DJ has pointed out, some of us get seasonal depression and some of us don't. But we will be back in your ears on Tuesday, December 17th to talk about Fenris Wolf. Actually, we'll be back in your ears a week from today as of recording on December the 12th to talk about the first day of Muse-mas.

It's just sick season.

Six season, guys.

DJ (01:07:57.524)

first day of Musemas

Take care everybody and until next time, don't be like Zeus.

O'Connor. The Crystal Con Man. Nicholas Miller. Our music is Athens Festival by Martin Hayne. And our cover art is by Audrey Miller. You can find her on Instagram at Bombshell Nutshell Art.

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Darien (01:08:42.775)

Don't forget to check out all of our episodes and episode transcripts at musesofmythology.com.

Thanks for listening.