Story 100: Let’s Punch Pop Culture Odin! (w/ Standby Line Podcast)
“Odin is a Horse Girl, confirmed.”
It’s episode 100!!! Tim (he/him) and AJ (he/they) from The Standby Line Podcast join the show to talk about (read: aggressively dunk on) Odin!
Other topics include the deal with runes, the Eye of Odin often being more prominent in media than Odin himself, Mimir being the “head guy,” Odin’s obsession with Undercover Boss, Frigg’s perplexing history, the goal of the show to be a tasting tray and not a comprehensive lecture, Odin’s many animal friends, Darien’s favorite moment in comics, and the true reason Tim and AJ despise Odin (it’s cause of WoW).
Get more Standby Line at https://open.spotify.com/show/24St9OzlAzdq6ybjel8Co1
Spoilers for SMITE, The Mighty Thor, Order of the Stick, Tomb Raider King, Mythic Item Obtained, Ys game series, and World of Warcraft
Content Warning: This episode contains mentions of and conversations about death, imprisonment, torture, sexual assault, and memory loss in the context of dementia
Darien and Tim Play with Fate bonus episode available NOW on Patreon! https://www.patreon.com/musesofmythology
About Us
Muses of Mythology was created and co-hosted by Darien and DJ Smartt.
Our music is Athens Festival by Martin Haene. Our cover art is by Audrey Miller. Find her on Instagram @bombshellnutshellart
Love the podcast? Support us on Patreon and get instant access to bloopers, outtakes, and bonus episodes! Patreon.com/musesofmythology
Find us @MusesOfMyth on Instagram. Find all of our episodes and episode transcripts at MusesOfMythology.com
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Darien (00:00.142)
Muses of Mythology is a spoiler-heavy podcast.
That's an understatement.
DJ (00:13.356)
Hey, Thor's got an energy drink skin, where he's just a can of fucking thunder rea-
That I give
No, that makes sense.
I he's just a little can of soda.
No, Thunder- Good energy drink, he's Thor, yeah.
Tim (00:26.894)
Sure, but it's an energy drink.
Darien (00:47.96)
Welcome to Muse of Mythology, a podcast where we talk about how ancient myths become part of modern pop culture through the lens of Rick Riordan's Magnus Chase and the gods of Asgard. This is story 100, Odin. I'm your host. I'm your host and podcasting muse, Darian Smart. Joining me is my host and brother, DJ.
how's everybody doing today? DJ The Muse and I've been playing a lot of Last Epoch recently. It's a good game.
I think DJ all you do is play games.
That's fact, yeah. It's giving me a bit of a problem recently.
I could go to the most recent episodes and just do a whole compilation of you saying, recently I've been playing.
DJ (01:26.702)
It's because it's changing constantly.
That's true. You're always doing something new. Let's music around the garden about it.
All right.
Darien (01:36.174)
DJ? What's up? It's episode 100. Can you believe it? One, we've done 100 of these, and then almost 100 bonus episodes, and several dozen remith episodes, and a handful of movie night episodes, and oh, 36 musemis episodes?
And it is.
DJ (01:59.182)
I know, it's crazy.
That's a lot. We've done a lot of these. But episode 100, it's the big one. says, so I think Odin is a big topic, but it's not enough just to have a fun topic. We need to have some fun guests. And I am so excited that it all lined up and we get to have our friends from our sister show Stand By Line joining us again. Hi, Tim and AJ.
Hey! been a hot minute since we've been here last.
and it gets to be us being Odin's biggest haters for an hour.
I'm really, really excited to learn why. But don't tell me yet. We're going to get into it. Actually, usually I ask, why did you want to be here? And I think the answer, as AJ just told us, is to hate on Odin.
AJ (02:45.065)
Pretty much, yeah.
And you know, I thought, ah, it must be because of God of War. But in the notes, Tim noted, I have not played God of War. So I'm like, damn, I don't know why I hate Odin.
I haven't played the remake, but I have heard it's very valid to hate Odin in that context too.
But no matter how bad Odin is in that, it's not as bad as the one we're gonna get to.
I'm excited. Fantastic, fantastic. So let's get into it. We got to start out as we always do. DJ, what's the deal with Odin in the Magnus Chase books?
DJ (03:21.132)
Now typically we actually ask our guests to...
Yeah, but our guests don't read these books.
That's insane. Odin, he is, he's like, he's kind of a CEO, but he's not, I don't think he's quite CEO. He's more like, CMO, senior marketing officer or chief marketing officer, know, and he's constantly looking for ways to advertise and push fall.
Yeah!
Darien (03:51.534)
Which is interesting because you don't have to advertise for Valhalla. No one chooses. Odin chooses them, actually.
Yeah, it's really good. Big fan.
Well, like, you can't deny the power of brand awareness.
Except I think you don't even have to be aware of Alhalla to end up there.
mean, how is getting into Valhalla supposed to be a great and beautiful honor if it's not one of the most exclusive places on the planet, specifically marketed as such?
Darien (04:26.786)
This is another good point. AJ, how do you make sure you're getting people that truly deserve to be there unless there are people who don't get to go there and want to?
Exactly.
By the way, the last time we had you all on was 2022 for our Happy Haunts episode.
you
my god, it's been three years.
Darien (04:43.456)
It's been going on three years. I didn't realize it was that long. Welcome back. We were literally in Disneyland together more recently than when I recorded last with y'all. Not Tim. Tim and I just recorded together recently. We did. So I guess this half counts.
We have all three of us have also recorded together since then. What?
That's also true. think it's because we've been on standby lined in that time space that I was shocked that I'm like, I swear I forgot. Yes, but not for this show.
And we've been on some shit.
Exclusivity!
AJ (05:18.594)
And we've been on other stuff, like we were just on an episode of Gaming Theater Presents again.
That's another thing. It's like, I record with Tim and AJ all the time.
Dang that. Exactly. This hasn't been a proper Meet Me as this episode since Happy Holidays.
So yes, so yes, sorry to interrupt, DJ. Absolutely, yeah, he's a very much, I also think he gives motivational speaker vibes is a big thing with Odin in Magnus Chase.
I to a degree I'll agree.
Darien (05:53.774)
What does say? Like, do seminars about how to be your best in Ha-Yi self? Am I remembering that correctly?
Maybe I just I remember him like, specifically having like presentations on like marketing and ways to spruce up how Valhalla
Maybe it's that. It's also, hey, this season's lasted a year. It's been a year since we've actually read the book. That's not how this is supposed to go. This season got wild. Yeah, I think the other thing is that Odin super loves to play undercover boss.
Like, super love to play undercover Everybody for whatever reason does get like worried and like crazy when he leaves. Even though chances are he's just somewhere in fall.
for you.
Darien (06:45.966)
Yeah, like the first book opens. Yeah, the first book opens and Odin's missing. We find out he's just been this like troll character, he's a half troll named X. And then at the end he reveals, it's been me the whole time. I wanted to go undercover to see how you all would accept the, like, oh, okay, cool dude, that's interesting. And then in Nine from the Nine, it actually.
seem like that's what happened.
AJ (06:57.23)
Yep.
Darien (07:12.206)
So that's the first Odin thing. And then the last Odin thing we get from the series is him being like, I need to hire a new captain of the Valkyries. And he does some interviews and they all go poorly. And I've talked about how much I hate that. And then he's like, okay, I will just go ahead and disguise myself as a Valkyrie and go undercover and figure out like, who should be the new captain. And I'm like, how are you going to get away with that one? Like, what's the story? Are you going to say like, I'm the new Valkyrie that Odin picked?
You gotta know everyone's a little suspicious every time a new Valkyrie that Odin picked shows up.
Ugh.
Mm-hmm. Something weirdly ancient Norse that no person would actually be named to today? Yeah.
Darien (07:57.922)
Yeah. dad.
there you go.
His half troll name was like literally impronounceable to people. That's why they just called him X. It's like we can't say it with our mouths, so.
That's true, I forgot about that.
Darien (08:15.298)
Call them X. Yeah, human beings cannot pronounce those sounds. It's not a laziness thing. It's our throats not designed for those noises thing. Yeah. That's, mean, I would say, you know what's OK. This may be controversial. I feel like Odin does way less in the Magnus Chase books than Zeus does in the Percy Jackson series. I guess it's less impactful.
Yeah, for sure.
DJ (08:40.514)
What is Odin actually gonna do?
Hmm, good point. Why else would we like the thing that Odin does at the end is like give Samira her job back. Yeah. And give them all rewards for doing a good job. And like that's-
to kind of come and go from Valhalla as they please.
Yeah, I mean to be fair, I'm glad he's different than Zeus. Like for sure, they shouldn't be the same kind of character, but it is reflecting on it another thing that's just interesting about the way it's structured.
Hey Tim, engine! I also fairly characteristic of Odin. Like, Zeus interferes in everything because Zeus is an asshole. Odin doesn't care, so Odin only gets involved when it's specifically Odin's job.
Darien (09:23.694)
You know, that's actually a great segue, AJ. Hey, Tim, AJ, what do y'all know about Odin for North mythology?
So Odin is the all-father of the the Izer, father of Thor and sometimes Loki depending on how it is. He's... I don't know if this is official, like if this is how Snorri categorized him, but he's usually described as the god of magic. He gave up his eye to get infinite wisdom. He's got his ravens, Huguen Munin, and he's a gigantic jackass!
I re-read a huge chunk of the younger Eda for this.
Thank you!
It was a couple of weeks ago, so my memory of all of it is like 60 % at best, but...
Darien (10:12.704)
Anything jump out at you you want to shout out?
I think Tim caught a lot of the broader context. I think it's important to mention that he's not just a god of magic. Odin is kind of sort of the god of like a third of everything. Like I could list off domains he's held and take up at least 10 minutes like battle, magic, royalty, theft, wisdom, courage, the alphabet,
you
Darien (10:41.166)
Yep. Literally the alphabets. We will get to that.
Yeah, him being the god of the runic alphabet is just the funniest thing ever.
Mm-hmm.
He's one of the only guys that can read it.
Or at least truly understand it.
DJ (10:58.702)
Honestly, if I was the only one who could read like, Latin or something like that, like yeah, you guys gotta come to me fuckers. Fuck you, I'm not teaching you shit, okay? I'm the guy.
It would be like if you could read Latin, but in reading Latin, you actually did magic. Like, it's actually both of those things.
I'm the guy.
Yeah, like I'm pretty sure like, Tyr and Heimdall and Freya can read the runes as a language. Like they are literate, but they can't do the magic thing. They don't understand the runes. thing that the runes do. I think that's what it is. will.
They don't understand.
Tim (11:37.292)
And that's part of why Odin sacrificed his eye and hung himself from the world tree, was that he could see and essentially understand everything.
I had runes for later, we can do runes now. Let's do runes now. I'm just gonna scroll meadows. Yeah, AJ, tell us more about the runes. What are the runes?
Whatcha doin'?
Tim (11:55.102)
That's a good question, because sources and interpretations differ wildly. To say that they're a language is definitely accurate, but they're also much like a lot of pop culture represents them in nowadays. They're more like symbols of power, in a sense. They're not magic in the sorcery sense that a lot of people tend to think about magic.
Mm-hmm.
Tim (12:25.154)
more so like latent inherent powers. I think a comparison I could make that I haven't heard made very often is it's almost compared to like the way myths about the fey talk about the power of a name.
Yeah,
Essentially that Odin holds power over all of these things strictly because he understands them on a fundamental level.
Yeah. Nice. Yeah, that's, I think that is the, like, it's like you said, like it's the runes or the symbols of the runic alphabet that the dramatic people were using before the Latin script got kind of like adopted as the mainstay for written language. But like the, the word for rune comes from a proto-Germanic term that can roughly be translated to mean like secret or mystery.
Yeah. And I think that also deeply communicates what it is. Like you said, they're not just, hey, here's this, this, this, this symbol isn't just meant to communicate like a phonetic sound that human beings make with their mouths. It literally has a secret meaning behind it that if you understand it, understand the essential secret language of the universe.
Tim (13:42.102)
Yeah, and that's why in a lot of cases you also see them in very flowy, artistic patterns sometimes called cipher runes, because those are perceived to be like an artistic interpretation of linguistics.
and like communicating that like more layered meaning. In trying to dive into Odin's specific relationship with the runes and like kind of not just like the stories are ended, but like, what does that mean? What do we understand from it? I've had a lot of places that claimed like the Norn had the runes first and then Odin wanted to learn it from them. But I couldn't find that corroborated within the Eddas like that.
Yeah.
Darien (14:25.494)
I'm not sure where that idea comes from. Rather, it seems like it was believed that Odin was the one who originated the runes. Specifically in a poem, Sayings of the High One, Odin describes actually how he came to discover the runes. And I will read you a verse now from Caroline Larrington's translation that we've been referencing literally all goddamn season. That I only just started like physically making marks in and like underlining passage. I don't know why took me a year.
To be like, right, I can draw in this, it's my book.
I'm just so fundamentally averse to writing in my own books from school that like even now I can't do it.
I think that's what it is. And then finally I was like, I'd love to just be able to cite this really quick and not just have the one sticky on the page, but see what I actually, I could just do. Meanwhile, over on my Aragon podcast, I'm scribbling in my Aragon book all day long. So like, I don't know why over here I was like, can't write in the text.
I love finding books with notes in them. I cannot make a note in a book for the life of me. Can't bring myself to do it.
Darien (15:25.678)
That's fair, everyone has their own relationship with the books. Okay.
I ban to quicken and be wise and to grow and to prosper. One word from another word found a word for me. One deed from another deed found a deed for me. And it goes on for a bit.
But yeah, the idea that Odin literally hung himself from, it says like the word Yidrassal is never used, but the general consensus from scholars is that this is the world tree. Like it would be kind of wild if it wasn't.
Yeah, and I think that ultimately comes around to sort of the nature of the way the Edo was written, of being all of these different poems that were essentially later combined into one text. In their own purest form, you can't say it's Idriso because the word didn't come up in the poem. When you look at the later connections to other myths and other stories, then yes, it is probably the Cosmic Tree, but...
Yeah.
Darien (16:47.692)
Yeah, you also have the element of like the original audience would have understood context without it having to be quite as apparent because of like the inherent like lived nature of the belief system. Yeah, I think that's also an interesting thing. As the poem goes, just speaking a little bit more on.
he's using it another really good transition that i would like grab onto but i want to leave this space just yet so that i'm just in space and respect but like as the poem goes on like odin lists what rooms he knows what they allow him to do for example like calm disputes are protect comrades in battle or bring the dead back to life but he never actually says or describe what
that rune is. Like, it's, it's, let me read one of these to you. It's trippy. know an 11th, if I have to lead long loyal friends into battle under the shields, I chant and they journey confidently safely to battle safely from battle safely. come back from everywhere. You know, it's like, I know a ninth one. know a 12th one. know a 14th one. And I also kind of love that where it's like lending to the like Odin knows these runes, but we are the bard doing the poem.
i don't know the rooms i could not describe the rooms to you because only odin knows this and he's not sharing that information with anybody he's just telling you i know it i can do it but i'm not sharing that wisdom with you
Yeah, and I think there's also a point of it, and this comes up later in a passage I really like from the Prose Edda, where they essentially establish, we don't need to explain to you how much Odin knows because we couldn't. Only Odin can understand how much Odin understands. There's a passage from, and I think the note I have is from the Fox translation, Odin sat in the throne that saw over all worlds and every man's activity and understood everything that he saw.
Darien (18:31.95)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (18:44.792)
Yeah, that's a really good way of demonstrating wisdom, not just to see all things, to understand, and not even just know all things, but to understand all things, I think, is a depth of wisdom.
Yeah.
Darien (18:59.246)
Okay, now I'm gonna grab on to the great transition that age it do we have anything else on runes before I take us by the hand and lead us away
And now I think that covers it.
Okay, all right. AJ mentioned earlier about how the thing about the Eddas is all these poems were disparate pieces that all got kind of brought together. And this poem, Sayings of the High One, is a very good example of that because the poem is largely believed to be a collection of other poems or just general oral sayings that all got combined under the umbrella of Odin's great wisdom.
Because this poem literally starts with things that like, hey, be careful when entering doors. Like, hold on, I'll actually read the verse, because it's, all doors, all the doorways before one enters should be looked around, should be spied out. It can't be known for certain where enemies are sitting in the hall ahead. And it's like, it just starts with like general good advice to have, and then ends up to like, hey, once I hooked up with a gal, just so I could steal her dad's magic poetry liquor.
I get it, and liquor are not the same thing. It was funnier if I said liquor.
Tim (20:09.674)
It is funnier if you say liquor.
And then after that, it veers into the story of Odin talking about how he learned the runes and all the runes. know, like these are like very three wildly different pieces. It's like if you watch the most recent SpongeBob movie and you were like, these are three wildly different narratives that are somehow all within this same piece. And that's why.
Yeah, and the prose, if I remember correctly, is written in like the 13th, 14th century. And it's written in Iceland, of all places.
Yes, that's the fun thing about it is that it's also Icelandic.
by settlers combining decades, or not even decades, centuries of oral tradition and what few transcripts they have of what they had before that, essentially being written almost divorced of the original mythological belief and rather just as this collection of stories.
Darien (21:03.468)
Yeah, and that's the thing we have to keep revisiting is that even these things that we call like the truest sources we have still are unable to accurately communicate what Norse mythology was when it was a living tradition. And I really bet listeners are gonna be excited to hear me not say the words living tradition every episode. Because that's just the best terminology I have grabbed onto to like communicate.
the difference between what it is now when we read the Eddas and what it was then when there was someone who's like living it.
It's, yeah, okay, so I have to make a confession just real quick. When Tim, when you're like, here's Odin, he's the Allfather, you told us all this stuff, it struck me in that moment that I don't think the phrase Allfather appears once in my notes.
You know what? I'm honestly not surprised by that. That feels like a more modern addition as a sort of catch-all term.
No, here's the thing. It's no, it's because if you Snorri, I have where he talks about like in the Gilfening and Ing and chapter three is the Allfather. Gangleri began to question who is the highest or oldest of all the gods. High replied, he is called Allfather in all language, but in Asgard the Old, he has 12 names. One is Allfather. A second. So like, no, Allfather is correct. I just somehow did five pages of notes on Odin.
Darien (22:32.01)
and just didn't write the phrase Allfather. And I just needed to like confess that I could carry the baggage of that sin around.
I'm just gonna say I swear it came up in the prose that I- they- cause after the phrase I used from the folks translation it goes into uh he is called the Allfather for he is the father of all gods uh what's the phrase? this is why he can be called Allfather that he is father of all gods and of men and of everything that has been brought into being by him and by his power the earth was his daughter and his wife
Yeah, so like.
So no.
Darien (23:06.477)
Yeah.
Tim (23:10.316)
I just wanted to throw that line in because that line always irks me.
Yeah, I don't like that. I don't know where you're getting that snory, but sit the fuck down. We've done a lot on this season to talk about how the Norris were like, incest? We don't do that here. Like, we invented a whole new family of gods, so we don't have incest like the Greeks.
Not in our Christian Minecraft server!
Darien (23:41.038)
Yeah, I just needed to just make a confession. But hey, speaking of names that Odin has, he's got 170 of them.
Even that feels like a fairly conservative number.
I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna recite them all. But that was interesting. it does, cause there's not a lot of places named after Odin, unlike like Thor or Tyr or Frey, which I thought was very interesting because we've been using that as a metric to communicate like how influential a deity was this season, because that's a big thing. But I don't know, having 170 names.
for this deity also feels like a good way to communicate this was very important. Had a lot of associations with.
Yeah, and I think that there's also the big one of when you look at like Anglo-Saxon tradition, calling him Woden, being widely accepted as the origin for the word Wednesday, Woden's Day.
Darien (24:41.07)
Yeah, thank you AJ. was trying to out how do fit Wednesday in there.
I actually do have a theory about this, but we'll come back to it in a bit because we have to set something else up first.
okay. But I did actually bring up, Odin is, thank you again, AJ, wow. Do you want to be my co-host? Because this is usually DJ's job is to set me up for the good volleys. So, but no, so I did want to touch on that a little bit, is like how the deity that we identify as, well, we know as Odin in Norse mythology has an incredibly like long history in the Germanic peoples.
And it was maybe the most widely known God across Germanic paganism, like not just in Norse belief systems. And like had the names like Woden and like that stems from like a proto-Germanic name that kind of meant like Lord of Frenzy. And I just wanted to note that because it's a super important piece of like studying Odin as a figure, but it is not something we are gonna dive deep into here because y'all, just don't have that, we don't have the time.
We don't have the bandwidth. That's a lot. That's stretching us pretty thin. We are just going to really hyper-focus on the Norse aspect, unless Tim or AJ or DJ has something really specific they want to throw out and talk about, because I think it's really interesting. But I just don't want anybody coming at us and be like, why didn't you talk more about this? And I'm like, because I made the executive. Because we're not linguistic scholars.
AJ (26:02.562)
Because we're not linguistics scholars.
And because we'd have to talk about every Germanic culture. Dark Ages Europe.
can't do that. Not what this season is about. I wanted to acknowledge it because I think it is important and very interesting, but we're going to focus on what's in the Eddas. So we're already going out of order. Do y'all want to talk about why he's got one eye or do want to talk about his undercover boss hijinks?
Let's start with the eye thing because that relates to my setup.
and take it away.
AJ (26:32.974)
So like, like, like, we mentioned earlier, when he was hanging with a tree Odin also, I forgot the exact instances of it because it's been a while since I the Edda, but he basically cut out his eye in exchange for all the wisdom, wisdom he has. But his eye is still holds an incredible amount of power.
And that actually relates to what I was saying before about how, what, about Odin's prevalence. You mentioned back in your Thor episode, like Thor was everywhere. Like everybody had a big statue of Thor in their house in 900s, Odin, think when you see Odin depicted in a popular culture, it's just as often that you see
Odin's eye depicted as a source of power, then you do actually see Odin himself. Like in Gargoyles in particular, you see the eye of Odin as like a MacGuffin in like three or four episodes before Odin himself makes an actual appearance.
Interesting.
Darien (27:38.252)
Gargoyles is such a good show.
It is, but unfortunately Odin doesn't really give me a lot to work with in that. just kind of is the standard undercover boss in that.
Hell yeah.
Yeah, so Odin losing on I, oh, since Tim thought about actually brought up Thor, I'm gonna real quick, I'll save that for later. So Tim's, Tim, Odin, Odin's the one we're talking about, not Tim, Tim is here.
We could talk about Tim. We don't have much to talk about when it comes to Tim's eye, but... Yeah, they seem like they're doing alright.
Darien (28:07.522)
They seem fine.
So that's good. You getting checked up pretty good, Tim?
I'm actually overdue for an eye exam.
my man, you gotta go check. Gotta wash your eyes. So, hey DJ, I got a present for ya. It's the fact that we finally get to talk about Mimir.
What's up?
DJ (28:25.496)
What is it?
DJ (28:29.864)
Whoa, the head man!
Yeah. So I'm going to read a verse real quick, and then I'm going to let you tell us about Mimir. Cause I have woven this episode together to cover a couple of topics. So I don't have to do more work. So in the CRS prophecy in the Vullspa, the first reference we get is the, well, not the first reference to Odin. Odin talks a bit, but the CRS says, as she's speaking to Odin.
Alone she sat outside when the old man came. The terrible one of the Aesir, he looked in her eyes. Why do you question me? Why do you test me? I know all about Odin, where you hid your eye in Mimir's fame as well. Mimir drinks mead every morning from the father of the slain's pledge. Do you want to know more and what? So Dee, who's Mimir?
Mimir? Mimir is in fact renowned for his knowledge. He's just... What is- is he an Acer? He's an Acer, isn't he?
And you know what? Maybe.
Darien (29:35.688)
Yes, he's one of the AC'er.
I'm just trying to... I don't remember how he only became a fucking head. He's just a head. he's chilling in a well, and his well holds the secrets to a lot of universes.
You
DJ (29:57.46)
A of people will drink from his well to gain knowledge, but they lose something in return. And I believe that's where Odin gave up his eye.
It is where Odin gave up his eye. As Tim and I just said.
Yep, he's in Jotunheim under... From the Yggdrasil tree.
Darien (30:15.866)
I mean, yeah, that's it. That's kind what he's got, He's got a lot of knowledge, he's ahead. This is like the one time in the Vulpahs where he's mentioned and not just as ahead. The other times this dude comes up, and even later in the same poem, right at Ragnarok, the sons of Mim are at play and the measuring tree is kindled. At the resounding Gilarhorn, Heimdall blows loudly, his horn is in the air. Odin speaks with Mim's head, the ancient tree groans and giants get loose.
Kind of-
Darien (30:45.014)
Yidrassil shudders, the tree stands upright. And then much in a different poem called The Lay of Sigfrida. We've talked about this like briefly when the hero Sigurd rescues the Valkyrie Sigfrida, who was put to sleep by Odin after she brought down a warrior whom Odin had promised victory to. And so in exchange Sigurd's like, hey, will you teach me wisdom? And she's like, hell yeah. Let me tell you all I know about the runes.
And it makes sense for a Valkyrie, one of Odin's personal warrior maidens, to know about the runes. It's like Odin himself thinks, it's like how they have spears, because that's an Odin thing. And that's like, I don't know, I like that. I like that the warrior ladies have a lot of strong association with Odin specifically. While she's talked to him about this, she also recites...
a poem suddenly becomes about Odin for a second. And this is another example of, hey, scholars are pretty sure these are two different poems that have just been like fusion-hide together. On a cliff he stood with Brimir's sword. What is Brimir? Who is his sword? We have no idea. Moving on. A helmet on his head. Then Mim's head spoke, wisely the first ward and told the true letters, talking about getting the runes or using the runes.
So.
DJ, you said, don't know how Mameer became just ahead. Tim, do either of you know how Mameer became just ahead?
AJ (32:19.361)
I don't actually.
If I remember correctly, he's beheaded in the war between the Aesir and the Veneer, and it's because the Veneer believe that he cheated them during a meeting for the truce, I believe.
Darien (32:37.646)
Yes, yes, kind of. So here's what we have. The story of what happened to Mimir comes from the Heimskringle, which is, what is it? It's actually one of the King's Sagas. And specifically, it's Snorri's King's Saga written in 13th century in a subsection of the saga called the...
Yenlingka Saga. And this one tells the story of the Aesir-Vanir war, and there was an exchange of hostages. And so the Aesir sent the Vanir, Honeer, and Mimir. And initially the Vanir are like, great, we'll make this Honeer guy our chief, because he's a chief. He seems pretty cool. But then they realize he's actually an idiot without Mimir's guidance. And so they cut off Mimir's head and send it back to the Aesir.
And then Odin performs a ritual to preserve Mimir's head, allowing it to still speak and provide guidance to him.
Now here's an important detail for just the subject matter of our show. The King's Sagas are not part of the Eddas. They are meant to be. AJ, do you want to explain what the King's Sagas are?
it's a bit strange because they're kind of sort of addendums in a loose sense. They weren't part of the original transcripts. They were essentially like written as their own.
Tim (34:13.806)
histories of the mythology?
Well from what I understand they're kind of like largely meant to be like historical accounts of Scandinavian kings
Yeah, and a lot of that ended up, especially when Snorri was writing his, they essentially ended up tying back into these foundational myths because it was believed that this was where kings kind of divined their ability to rule.
Yep, this saga is actually the first in the King Saga because it's essentially snorri, euh, rising the account of the mythology, which is when you take, I'm not sure y'all know this. I'm explaining it for listeners who didn't know and past Darien, who didn't know until she saw this word. So when you take an account, like a mythological tale, and then you recontextualize it as if it was a real world event. a lot like that version of Freya that apparently Rick Riordan decided he was going to base his version of Freya on is a euh, human rise.
event and I'm probably mispronouncing that word, but we're just gonna move past that. So in this interpretation, Odin is a sorcerer chief who is worshiped as a god but is not necessarily actually a god. And when he dies, Njorn takes over and from his and then Frey's descendants is where the lineage of kings come from. Also, I do keep saying that Snorri wrote it. Yeah, that's not actually a thing we know for sure for sure. Like we know for sure for sure this man wrote the Prose Edda.
Darien (35:33.888)
and hated French poetry. Like we know that. But scholar and translator Anthony Foxx actually said on the subject matter, the authorship of the Hymn Skringla is not referred to within the text or in any surviving manuscript as usually the case for medieval work. And its attribution to Snorri has been questioned. The first surviving works in which he's credited as the author are 16th century translations of the Hymn Skringla into Danish.
Who does it? You're not special.
Darien (36:06.046)
So again, this is not saying this isn't a useful text or interesting or valuable or things like that, but like in this, specific thing and trying to talk about Mimir, like we lack a critical insight into being able to understand what Mimir's like origin story would have existed in like the old Norse canon as a living tradition.
Tim (36:28.654)
And I think to tie it back to Greek that that's kind of a bit of a trend with ancient history anyways, is that we see these histories essentially being written, not necessarily in contemporary times, but shortly thereafter. Like most of the King's Sagas are written about kings from like the eighth, ninth century being written and like the 12th, 13th centuries.
Yeah, so even the historical accuracy of it is like, who knows?
Yeah, we're all just kind of attributing them to Snorri because we know Snorri was a historian who was actively writing during the time. Much like we attribute a lot of Greek histories, we don't know the author to of to Herodotus, if it's around that time, simply because we know Herodotus is writing and we know, OK, this is close enough. This is around the time he was active. He may have written it. He may not have written it. Let's just. Yeah, you go, you get to like the 19th century Brits and they're like, well.
It needs to come from someone.
Tim (37:22.786)
Whatever, it's close enough. It might be Herodotus, it might not be Herodotus, we don't care. Don't believe anything we say.
That's okay.
Darien (37:32.638)
But yeah, that's Mimir. He, um... This is a dude. We know he got his head chopped off. Maybe it was an A-Z. Maybe something else happened. Who's to say? But that thing Odin mentions about, I know a rune to bring people back to life. Yeah, that's probably why Mimir can be just ahead. Odin probably did that.
Go.
But the, just circling back to like the Odin sacrificing his eye for the wisdom, I wanted to like spend some time discussing that because I realized as I was writing it down that I think there are two ways someone could reasonably interpret it. And of course, like it's a poetic way of like framing Odin's wisdom as coming from like an untold hardship and great sacrifice, like a willingness to give up something.
in exchange for wisdom, that it doesn't come from nowhere. There is cost to gaining knowledge. But I think you could also maybe frame it as like, was this just a shortcut? didn't actually have to do all these things. actually have to go through the things that someone else would have to go through to gain knowledge. He just had to cut off his eye. And yeah, that's rough, but like, so is it a shortcut or is it like a bold sacrifice?
Tim (38:55.542)
I think it's hard not to call it a sacrifice. But I also agree with the sentiment that it is very much to a shortcut. Odin is in every, or in most depictions, shown as being very capable of going out and acquiring the knowledge and understanding what he sacrifices his eye to get the power to do. Essentially by hanging himself from the tree and sacrificing his eye to Mimir's well, which it goes on to say like everybody comes to Mimir's well.
Many great scholars come. They drink from the well for knowledge, but they have to give up something. Odin essentially just decided to take the biggest ante and give up his eye in return for understanding everything.
Mm-hmm.
Darien (39:36.526)
Which is pretty bold. I'm not not no no it's pretty bold. I don't have a stance one or the other. I'm more inclined to be like yeah it's the poetic symbolism of like hard sacrifice. Like I don't think it's actually meant to be like wow Odin sucks but I feel like that's what I got to set up for this episode because eventually I'm gonna let y'all loose so we have do a little bit of groundwork.
I think the big thing that you see in a lot of these stories is more so that what Odin does, Odin does for Odin. When we get more into the story of Ragnarok, you could argue that what he's doing is trying to receive counsel specifically to help everybody involved. But up until the end of time, we're looking at an Odin whose main motive is empowering Odin.
Mmm.
Tim (40:25.214)
Regardless of whether you can perceive that as noble or not, it does ultimately come from a very selfish place. And I think a lot of modern interpretations of Odin do lean into it being as selfish as you could argue it was in the original text.
That's a boy. who did you- Go on.
I'm just saying, being the guy that tricks you starts at home.
Did you Tim, did you have any, AJ, did you have any specific examples of what you're talking about, like Odin going out to acquire knowledge that you want to introduce as we start to transition away from the I and the runes and into more of the general Odin behaviors and habits?
I think the two examples we made so far have been the largest ones I think really deserve notice because I think they're also the two that you see as a very common parallel and a lot of other interpretations of him. If we got down into more specific myth, I'm sure I could find another example that probably does better as a self-serving example. But to say that those really had the permanence
Tim (41:36.226)
to shine through in other interpretations of Odin or the way we talk about Odin nowadays would probably be disingenuous to argue, you know?
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Much like we can all talk about the story of Loki transforming himself into a mare, does it actually influence the way we see Loki, or do we just talk about it because it's a funny myth about one specific story?
It's a pretty funny myth about one specific story about Loki fucking up negotiations so bad that he had to like really over-correct to fix the problem. So do we want to talk about Odin's undercover boss obsession?
Yeah.
AJ (42:16.11)
Yeah, let's do it. Odin loves to just appear to people as...
He loves to play dress up and go out.
And I gotta say, most of his disguises suck!
Do they?
Like, okay, this is obviously saying it with the benefit of being the author, but if I'm in like 12th century Norway and a mysterious old man approaches me and starts saying cryptic things, I don't know what other logical logic think, but it's like, you're obviously Odin or insane. Either way, I don't want anything to do with you.
Darien (42:58.346)
Yeah. Yeah. No, mean, yeah. I went ahead. Yes. I have a specific example. I went through the edict. I went through and found all of the edict poems where Odin disguises himself as. I've got some some verses I'd love to share. So we've got that from their sayings. And in this poem, Odin sets off.
Was he the ever cryptic old men though?
DJ (43:10.145)
Okay.
Darien (43:28.11)
against his wife's advice, disguised as a poor wanderer to test his wisdom against the giant Vafthrandir, who is only known in this poem. And this is just a wisdom contest where they go back and forth and be like, I know this, what do you know? I know this, what do you know?
So obviously this is going to go great for our thunder year.
Yep. The overall, like Odin defeats him in this and it's interpreted as like representing that like the time of the giants is over. Like it is now the time of the gods. The next time Odin does this is in the poem Grimnir's Sayings. Where in Odin and Frigg are like at odds where they have like picked two like sons of this king to be like they're like they're the patrons of.
And Frigg's like, hey, the guy you picked sucks. He is terrible to his guests. And Odin's like, no, he's not. I will disguise myself as an old man and go to his house and find out. And then this dude named Geirid does mistreat his guests. When Odin arrives at his hall calling himself Grimnir, the masked one. So he like doesn't give him any food, doesn't give him any water, like traps him in a hot room.
And like, did Frigg maybe go to his place and say, hey, a wizard's gonna come and try to fuck with you, watch out. Yeah, maybe she did do that. But like, he still tortured this guy he didn't know was Odin. And yeah, this also has a lot of like mythological back and forth of like sharing wisdom. It's where we get a lot of like our understanding or like the facts we have about like the Norse cosmology comes from this poem. The next one is called
Darien (45:16.878)
Harbard song. And it's this one where Odin in disguise and Thor meet at a fjord crossing. Odin refuses to ferry Thor across the water and the two engage in a ritual exchange of insults. This is a weird poem, just in general. Scholar Carol Clover has suggested that the poem may be intended as a parody of the usual flying poem. But essentially, this ferryman just insults Thor left and right.
just dunking on him. Thor loses. He is not able to keep up. Now, fun fact, early scholars thought that the Faerie Man was Loki, but later scholars are more in favor of identifying him with Odin because, among other things, Odin makes a statement in Grimmyr's sayings that is one of his names, or that the Faerie Man says is one of his names.
And more importantly, think, when Loki fucks with Odin, he wants Odin to know it was him.
That's true. like, Loki's never won. He walks into a party and burns every goddamn bridge. Like, he will eventually, and he eventually took credit for the whole disguising himself as an old woman so Baldr couldn't come back to life thing. So you're right. It probably wasn't. Now, why did Odin do this? I don't know, man. What?
Why does Odin do anything? Yeah, yeah, pretty much. is 90 % of his motivation. I have another tale in my notes. Let me see if I wrote the name down. I'm using Control-F very liberally with my notes today. It was Vafthrudnismo, which is Vafthrudnir Sayings, where
DJ (46:36.238)
Cuz he just likes fucking with people, I guess.
Tim (46:57.598)
He essentially goes to Jotunheim in disguise and says, I'm going to I'm going to challenge you to a contest of knowledge. You can see exactly where that went.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Why? And then a later poem, which is these next two aren't actually technically part of like the poetic, like they are part of the poetic edda, but they weren't originally part of the Codex Regis, which is like that main translation of the poetic eddas, but they're in my copy. So I'm going to cite them. have Baldur's dreams. And this is the poem where Baldur is having nightmares that he's going to die. And they say, like, that's weird. Why is that happening? So Odin.
goes down to hell, finds the ghost of a prophetess and is like, what's up? Tell me what you know. And Odin ends the conversation by asking for a piece of mythological information, which reveal his true identity to the Cirrus. So I'm including this one because while it's not said that Odin gets dressed up and goes down there in disguise, the fact that he is identity is revealed suggests to me that he was in fact concealing himself in some way.
And then the last one is the list of Rigg. And this poem, to specifically say, I've been citing the like intros in my copy. And this poem tells of the God Heimdall sets out to create the structures of human society. And in the Poe's intro to the poem, as he went along the seashore somewhere, he came to a household and called himself Rigg. And this poem is about Heimdall.
Darien (48:31.914)
sleeping with different like human couples and then creating the like hierarchy of humanity. which is weird and also not really a Heimdall thing based on other stuff. So a lot of scholars have been like, actually, we think this is Odin and it's maybe only the only place we're in the public. None of the poetic verses say Heimdall. It's only in this prose entry.
And that may be just trying to tie into Uck's comment from like an earlier poetic or Eta poem. But like the behavior and the purpose that like Rig this figure serves is like way more in line with like Odin and what he does and the fact that like he literally is said to like created humanity out of like driftwood. So I counted that because it gave me five, which was a nice number.
And I think thinking about that kind of going back to how you were talking about it doesn't explicitly talk about a disguise. There is a certain point where you can almost look at the repetition of certain trends and go, okay, well, this is a motif in Odin's myths. Even if it doesn't specifically say that, it may not have said that because like you said earlier about the cosmic tree, they didn't say it because concurrent audiences would have understood they're talking about the cosmic tree.
If I tell you Odin asks a question that reveals his identity to the Cirrus, you're immediately going to go, so Odin was in disguise. Because Odin is known to take disguises.
Of course. Yeah, and you're like, I was picturing him in a costume this whole time anyway, so yeah. I'm just right.
Tim (50:09.558)
Yeah, exactly.
I think to be fair to Odin, oftentimes it seems like he's approaching these people in disguise because he wants to get something from them that I don't think he would typically get if he was approaching them as Odin. Would you ex- if you thought that you had a good amount of knowledge, would you ever accept a challenge from Odin who gave up his eye for knowledge? No. If you treat your guests badly, if Odin showed up-
absolutely not.
That is actually...
DJ (50:41.696)
and is like, hey, what's good? Are you gonna treat fucking Odin badly?
Which is why he went in disguise to if was... ...cruiting guests. That's what you're saying, AJ?
What a disguise!
Tim (50:53.934)
That was also a common interpretation of what he does with Vath-Rydnir, where he shows up and challenges the contest of knowledge, because he asks the last question about what Odin's fate will be in Ragnar.
Mm-hmm.
which then Odin immediately responds by ending the contest by asking a question only Odin knows the answer to.
This punk ass bitch.
Of course.
Tim (51:19.01)
So, aside from the interpretation that yeah, that is a punk ass bitch move, how are
Come on, it's the, what's the identity of Batman?
Yeah, there's a very common interpretation
Yeah, exactly. And when I was reading it, I went on another website where I was looking for like summaries of certain stories, just to kind of add to my notes if there was anything that I could see as a connection. And they specifically pointed it out that it is basically the exact same thing Tolkien did with the riddle game in The Hobbit.
no, Tolkien loved him so
DJ (51:53.982)
It's a real game, you're supposed to be riddled. That's not a riddle, you're asking me what you have in your pocket.
yeah, he absolutely ripped off that store.
Darien (52:02.466)
Yeah, well fucking smegle doesn't call him out. He tries to answer it like it's part of the game. So like you do
This smegle is like mental. This man is looking for this room. He's having a hard time.
Yeah, he's having a hard time. It's his fault, Yeah, it is. Okay, so we say Odin is going to acquire knowledge. But is he? Like in Vafthrandir's whole incident, is he going to get more information from this giant, or is he just going to prove he's smarter than this guy?
Yeah, because by definition with what he got from Amir, I think he literally cannot acquire more knowledge than he already has.
because
Darien (52:42.082)
Yeah.
Yeah, and that's basically two dueling interpretations. Is this like, was he doing this just to be an asshole or was he doing this to like confirm what he already knew to see if everybody else already knew?
But if you're omniscient, then you would know that.
And my answer is, it's both.
You don't know what you don't know.
Darien (53:03.04)
being like I'm gonna go
Fight division if you're omni- if you're omniscient, you do!
Odin testing to see if he's truly omniscient?
But if you
That could be because I don't know the chronology of the Etta gets kind of weird and it's entirely possible that because Odin knew how he died before he hung himself from the cosmic tree so it's entirely possible that that story takes place before he was omniscient and just got shifted around in the way they were combined in the Etta's
DJ (53:42.944)
from Cosmic Feeds solely to get the understanding of runes, not really the understanding of everything. And I know that's like, the runes are everything, quote unquote, but it's not exactly. It's like, have an excitement, like we have Wikipedia at our fingertips. Does that mean that I've read it all?
I do like having that it's like two separate incidents of like one is the runes specifically and one is like the wisdom and maybe the wisdom came first and he's like all right if I want to learn the runes this is what I gotta do
That's fair. That's a point.
Tim (54:14.498)
Yeah, I think it's more the combination of those two things that make him the all-knowing figure that we perceive him as.
Yeah, it's also interesting because like it's in like the the the Vullspa this like prophetess who's like telling us all these things that are about Ragnar and everything else. She's speaking to Odin and just like in Baldur's dream where he goes down and speaks to the Cirrus again. It's like that's also a thing where he's like going to talk to someone about the stuff. Is this also Odin gaining the knowledge or did he already? Because she says like, I already know you lost your eye to Mimir in the well. Like, I already know this is what happened.
So it's like, what are you seeking to gain from this interaction, Odin? And is this just for the sake of the audience?
I think that, yeah, I think making the comment of it being for the audience, I just paused for a second because I went, did we just do the exact same thing? Because earlier how you were talking about, I'm pretty sure you guys know this, but I'm explaining it for the audience in case they don't.
to do this with you guys. We're a show. If we were just having a conversation, I wouldn't have to do this because I know you know. But if my listener might not know, and I want them to be able to get the full understanding of what we're talking about, now I have to like go to Google right now. I already did that.
Tim (55:30.22)
The big takeaway of today is Norse myth breaks the fourth wall.
Thank
Smith does not have a great core flaw. This is true. Now I want to do one more swing into another topic. So in Four of the Five Eddas, it is Odin playing undercover boss specifically to acquire knowledge or just show off the fact that he has knowledge. And in Four of those two, Odin is doing so specifically going against his wife's good advice. So this felt like a great time to talk about Frigg.
Hey y'all, what do know about one's wife?
She's Zurn's wife.
AJ (56:09.031)
Yeah, that's kinda it! They don't really give her much to work with. At least Norrie didn't.
You
Tim (56:16.878)
Yeah, I think that's... I think that's very fair because there isn't a lot of surviving information about her. So I can only imagine if there's if there's not a lot now and what we have is basically the Eddas. How much did they have to go off of? Because I know that we have like the Historia Langabardium, but
How much can we trust an 8th century account of, that's basically a derivation of a 7th century text about myths from, like, the 3rd century?
Exactly.
Like even getting into the like, we talked about how the Eddas can be perceived as unreliable, but the Historia Langa Bardum is a nightmare. It would be like me passing Dynasty Warriors off as legitimate Chinese history. It's a video game adaptation of a novel that is a romanticized interpretation of myth based on loose historical-
you
Darien (57:20.876)
Yeah.
I can only call that so accurate.
Yep, as you all said, like you are spot on. There's a reason that like Frigg got folded in because like there isn't a lot about her, much like I think beyond Freya, there's not a lot on the goddesses. Frigg is mentioned three times in the Vulspa and it's all in reference to Ragnarok and the deaths of Balder her son or Odin her husband. Real quick aside, in the last episode, I was like, wait, hold on, I'm actually not sure if Thor's mom is Frigg. It's not.
Thor's mom is a goddess named Dior, which is derived from a pro-dramatic word for Earth. And Snorri Sackhermo and the Aesir. All we know about her is because one time Thor is called the son of Dior.
And let's kind call this out. You'd think that wouldn't be the case with a society that was as documentedly metrolineal as North Society was.
Darien (58:20.354)
Yeah, it's kind of odd.
I also could have pointed that out in the fall section I read earlier. section of the, because it does say how I mentioned the line, the earth is his daughter and his wife. That section was setting up that Thor is the son of Odin and the earth.
Really, HELL is the most prominent goddess that we have the most concrete information on in this pantheon.
Yeah, and even she may, but that also might be because she may be a poetic invention from later bards, just personifying hell and death and not necessarily being a worship goddess of this pantheon at the time when it was a loving tradition, you understand. I've already talked about how in Vafrandir's sayings, Frigg is like, don't go bother the giant.
And in Grimnir saying, she is like, hey, your favorite king actually sucks. And then she's also present in Loki's quarrel, that feast where Loki burns every single bridge. we have, I think, read those verses so many times over the course.
DJ (59:32.206)
That's ridiculous. I cannot believe he did that.
This isn't Loki's episode. We're done with him. Snorri describes...
You say that but is it whenever done with logy?
We're never done with Loki. Snorri describes Frigg as being the foremost of the goddesses. And he also is the one that gives us the full account of Baldur's tale and Frigg's efforts to protect her son, which is where we get like the most Frigg being... I mean, pretty proactive. mean, nagging wife isn't great characterization for being a proactive character, but...
But it's not the worst.
Darien (01:00:11.0)
So Frigg's name is associated with a proto-dramatic noun, which meant free, and related to another word which meant to love, both of which stemmed from a proto-Indo-European word meaning one's own or beloved, which strongly indicates Frigg's role as a goddess of marriage and motherhood. And yes, the name Friday comes from Frigg's day. I like that. I didn't know that. I mean, be happy.
Mm-hmm.
AJ (01:00:35.502)
Good for you.
Yeah, the difficult thing is, like you said, a nagging wife isn't much of a characterization, and even going back to her name, being married and being a mother is nearly Frigg's entire purpose for existing.
Yeah, it is. is. think with her in the case where she's like was right to be like, hey Odin, this guy's no good. And he's like the goddess of wisdom and her being correct in her assessment against Odin. I like to interpret as indicating that she is also very wise. But again, it is just maybe the, guess, I don't know if it was a trope back in the time, but it does just kind of read as the wife's always going to disagree with the husband.
I that might be part of it. do know that some texts. Eighth century boomer humor, don't you love it? I do know that in some text, Frig has also treated like a god of clairvoyance almost like she is treated like the matron of prophecy. She is often seen with Odin looking into the world's like she does have some.
Hahahaha
Darien (01:01:26.126)
you
Darien (01:01:34.113)
Yes! Yes!
Darien (01:01:38.872)
Yeah,
Tim (01:01:45.602)
capacity of his wisdom, but that's more in the sense that he is sharing it to his wife.
Mm-hmm. Hey, regarding Frigg is like associated with like prophecy and clairvoyance. I couldn't figure out why that was.
Neither could I.
I was like, yeah, prophecy because she knew Balder was going to die and tried to protect him. Well, they knew Balder was going to die because Balder was having dreams about it. That's not Frigg having prophecy. Like, I couldn't find anywhere in the Eddas, in the Poetic Edda or in Snorri's text, in which it's. Yeah, this and it's cited a lot. And I was I was trying to find any scholarly journal or text examining it. And the best I could find is like,
We're in the prozetta.
Darien (01:02:32.262)
maybe has something to do with her possible connection to Freya. Because we've talked about like Freya having an association with magic and foresight. Specifically in this figure that was maybe also her during the Veneer Aesir war, who was killed by the Aesir and then brought back. So they're both associated with weaving and goddesses of love and domesticity, but like that's not super uncommon.
But there is an idea that maybe Frigg and Freyja were once a single goddess that split over time. Not that these two, Frigg and Freyja are not the same, but once upon a time were and became two separate goddesses in the tellings. There's some argument, it's like their names are etymologically similar, except what I found, they're actually not. But there is similarity etymologically between Freyja's missing husband, Odor, and Odin.
And not just because they sound alike, but because like you go back in etymology. I'm not fucking Jacob Grimm here. I'm actually doing the legwork beyond they sound alike. And so there's this kind of like, and there's a whole, like, this is like a big hypothesis. This again, it's a hypothesis. It's a theory. This isn't necessarily me saying this is the actual origin and why it is, but I found it interesting. And scholar Stefan Grundy stated, the problem of whether Frey or Freya may have originally been a single goddess is originally is a difficult one.
Ha ha ha.
Darien (01:03:57.934)
made more so by the scantiness of pre-Viking age references to Germanic goddesses and the diverse quality of the sources. So as y'all said earlier, we don't have a lot to go on to begin with. We don't have a lot about the goddesses to begin with. So it's hard to tell and track this lineage of whether or not these two figures were one. The same way we can kind of track, yes, Odin definitely was this figure and this guy and this one over here and this, like, the evolution culturally.
Yeah. And it's, I think it's even more prominent with Norse mythology is that there are a lot of gods that we ask, are these two supposed to be the same figure that are getting different names because of, you know, different transcriptions or different dialects or whatever have you about why exactly. Exactly.
meanings and stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah. And there, yeah, it's a lot of that. It's a lot of that. feel like I didn't spend a lot of time like investigating over the course of this season. But I also think that's really interesting. It just ties back into a lot of people like to get mad at adaptations of Greek mythology and like, OK, I don't think anyone's allowed to get mad at an adaptation of Norse mythology for these reasons entirely. You don't.
We don't have it gang. get, these poems are an adaptation of an idea. You get to.
Exactly. Like when you get into interpretations of Greek myths contemporarily, then you get into a whole thing about, yeah, okay, these sources interpreted this God this way, these sources interpreted entirely differently, and there's a reason for that. different sources interpret them differently because they had different manuscripts available to them, which are more correct? We don't know.
Darien (01:05:42.351)
And what does it mean to be correct in the time written down after Christianity had become all the rage?
Yeah, we're working with the writings of a Catholic priest in 9th century Germany and treating that like the authoritative source on a religion that started, you know, six centuries before him.
One last thing I wanted to talk about, because it delighted me to realize in my research, is that, hey y'all, Odin has a lot of pets.
mini pets.
Pets! DJ, do you want to try to name some of Odin's pets? Nice, okay. Anyone else?
DJ (01:06:17.175)
Hoogan and Moonen.
AJ (01:06:21.824)
Yeah, those are the ones that are actually...
No,
Bro's the all father, he's the all father bro, father of all.
Darien (01:06:37.523)
Alright, Tim has already tapped out I think on Huguenamunit. AJ, you got anybody else?
He has the wolves. I don't remember if they're considered his, but it's Gary and Frecky, I believe. I know that it mentions that he passes the food from his plate to them. I don't remember if they're actually considered his pets or not.
He does have the wolves!
Darien (01:06:58.536)
I'm deciding to count them as his pets. Because yeah, in Grimnir's sayings, it says that he feeds them from the table of Valhalla while he himself is drinking only wine.
Yeah, because he, as you know, Odin, does not require food or drink, he just drinks to drink.
You
I'm out a slice of my steak for cash.
Yes, that's what I'm saying! So the wolves' are Geary and Frecky, and in the first slay of Helgi Hugginsbane, it's stated that these wolves prowl the battlefield. The piece of the Friordi was torn between the enemies, corpse eager on the island Rand Odin's house. Both their names roughly translate to something akin to greedy one or ravenous. Which is terrifying.
Darien (01:07:46.84)
for wolves. Did you have any thoughts on wolves?
Yeah
There were problem.
I think they're misunderstood.
.
Darien (01:07:55.81)
They're just missing
There's- We're not misunderstood.
They're just big dogs.
Tim (01:08:02.018)
Forget the fact that they were tearing gods apart during Ragnarok.
People apart dude when they were telling these stories people were talking about it saying yeah, they were a problem
Hi.
What murder?
Another, okay, maybe it's rude. I'm accounting as a pet. The eight legged horse Slipnir.
AJ (01:08:25.132)
I guess technically, would.
Lots of animal friends!
I don't know if people call horses their pets though. think they just say, yeah, I got a horse.
Whatever, it's an animal friend. I like Odin having a lot of animal friends. I don't think we see that. It's always the ravens, never the wolves or the horse.
I always hear about sleep. I love the eight-legged horse
Darien (01:08:51.016)
hear about him how often does he appear it's way easier to do the Ravens who are sent all over Midgard to bring Odin back in for me
He appears in Magnus Chase, Darian. He doesn't. Of Sleipnir.
Yeah, so not actually see it. You knew when and that's weird. That's
the same kind of shit that you'd expect from Rick Riordan's writings.
Yeah, I was about to say that. It's the same shit he pulled with Pegasus. And it's not like they, it's not, here's the difference though. There's not a bunch of eight legged horses running around. It's not like they're all over Valhalla, like the Pegasi are all over Camp Half. It's just the one, why couldn't it have just been Slipknear? it's so- No, and it would have been cool, because he's, the horse shows up because like Hearthstone does like a magic rune thing to summon a ride, like help.
AJ (01:09:26.158)
Just the one!
Tim (01:09:30.806)
really been that
car.
Darien (01:09:39.758)
It would have been way more impressive for it just to be slip near. Like Stanley doesn't show back up in other books. This isn't like, it was weird. It was weird in another example of like we didn't, okay. I can't get in on this now. It's the end of the season. We're gonna finish on the positive note. So the Ravens. Hey y'all, what do the Ravens names mean? Watch out, it's a trap.
who can in who can stop moon is memory
Interesting. Anybody else?
I believe both of their names are plays on the word for memory, aren't I?
of.
AJ (01:10:12.494)
I should've done so.
I was gonna say, I think I remember reading that somewhere when I was doing research, is that even thought was supposed to ultimately play into both of them being like, embodiments of Odin's wisdom in some way.
Yes, Huguen is essentially a noun, and munin is a verb for kind of the same concept, so it's often thought and memory, but it's more akin to mind and will.
Okay, that makes sense.
You could also even like, arguably, if you wanted to get like kind of, esoteric's not the right word, but I like the sound of it, so I'm gonna use it. You could do like comprehension and wonder. Like these ravens are meant to communicate something more ethereal about Odin's nature beyond, you know, thought and mind. think like, know, mind and, or thought and memory. Like mind and will are a little bit more intangible. Comprehension and wonder, like. I don't know, it's grander than I think.
Darien (01:11:13.39)
adaptations have allowed it to be.
yeah, that's Anytime I think about moon and I think of a mon with it, we'll get into.
Okay, let's get into it. That's it. That's all I got. I wanted to finish it talking about all of Odin's animal friends. Yes, there are so many more things that we could talk about regarding Odin. He's a big thing. think this is important. Here's actually the thing. Regarding this Loki episode, I walked away not feeling super jazzed about the episode because I feel like I hadn't done enough research-wise for it. And I realized I was putting a lot of pressure on myself and I forgot kind of what I want the episodes in the podcast to be.
These are never meant to be a fully comprehensive resource about whatever the given topic is. They are supposed to be a sampler place. Like, here's some fun stuff. Isn't this interesting? And if anyone is like, that was really cool, hopefully it inspires and springboards them into diving deeper and digging more and doing more research and exploring these things. Like, this is an entryway, but it can never be like a truly like ultimately final, say comprehensive six week lecture. So I gave myself permission.
not to go into everything on Odin and let myself have a thing called Odin has a lot of pets. Let's talk about it.
Tim (01:12:27.534)
So valid.
Okay, so we are now, I believe, entering the space where Tim and Aja are going to tell us why they have beef with Odin.
Before we get before we get to that that there's other Odin in pop culture, but we'll do that first because it's gonna take a while
That's what I was thinking!
I feel like I should also preface this by saying that I have lot less shit to talk about the real Odin compared to the way he's perceived by literally everybody in pop culture.
Darien (01:12:59.032)
See, that's so funny, because when I was starting a thing and Tim was like, AJ and I want to talk shit about Odin. I was like, shit, Odin must suck. And then as we've done the whole season, I'm like, actually, I think I kind of like Odin. Like, in a way that's really easy to dislike Zeus, like really easy to dislike Zeus. I'm kind of like, I kind of like Odin. I think he's a fun guy.
That's one of my biggest complaints with Odin. Every time you talk about Odin being a jackass, somebody comes up and goes, but he's not as bad as Zeus. Of course he's not as bad Zeus. That's a very high bar.
Yeah, there's a reason we
He's differently bad than Zeus. Zeus is a typical dude, bro. Odin is terminally online.
Of course in hell.
Darien (01:13:44.192)
Yeah. OK, hold up, hold up. Zeus is a rapist, so let's not beat the butt on the bush there.
That's why I said he's a dude bro.
There's a reason we didn't change the sign off of the show when we switch from Greek mythology Like don't be like a Loki sometimes you got to be like Loki. I don't know what to tell you
He does plenty of good things. He's kind of a jerk, but he does plenty of good things.
Loki
Darien (01:14:11.566)
So DJ, do you want to talk about Smite?
Mightiest of the Aesir, warrior and king, the Allfather is a doomed god. It seems strange to imagine a god concerned with his fate, but Odin regularly consults the vulva, the seers in the north. They speak of a final war, Ragnarok, when the mightiest gods are slain and the world is consumed by the sea. For this day, Odin constantly prepares. The Allfather can trace his lineage to the evil frost giant, Ymir, whom he slew with the aid of his two brothers, Vili and Ve. And...
With his remains, forged the world. Atop Asgard, where Odin presides, he is known as the bringer of war, a sage of wisdom, and the keeper of souls slain in battle. As a warrior, Odin rides his eight-legged steve Sleipnir and wields the mighty spear Gungnir. Accompanying him are two wolves and his two ravens, Hugen, Thot, and Moonen, memory, who fly around Midgard and return to Odin with all they see and hear.
As a sage, Odin travels disguised as a simple wanderer seeking wisdom. His thirst for knowledge has come at great personal cost. Having been hanged from the branches of Yggdrasil, the World Tree, for nine days and nights, and sacrificed one of his eyes to the Well of Wisdom, as Keeper of Souls, Odin welcomes slain warriors to his mighty hall of Valhalla on the agreement that will aid him at Ragnarok.
Favored female warriors become his elite valkyrie that usher those worthy of entry. To Valhalla, it is in preparation for the final days of Ragnarok he does all this. For the seers claim his death will come at the fangs of the great wolf Fenrir. And like anyone, Odin seeks to change his fate. Yet never once have the vulva been mistaken.
AJ (01:16:02.323)
So DJ, in game, what role is Odin?
He's, there's no more roles, but he's a solo. Layner? What? Well, he's by himself. He's in a-
that mean?
He takes this lane alone and the jungler comes to help him if he ever gets back.
He.
Darien (01:16:19.95)
I not understand this game. Five years in, still don't get it.
This too open right now because I've been looking at a lot of shit just peruse and looking at they have progression like mastery progressions for each God and they're we're like it's like a thing that goes up and sometimes it's just like a firework but other times it's like a photo and they have them for like all gods and they're all like memes or references Aladdin who's new his is a Jojo reference
I'm sorry, Aladdin? Is it Smite?
Really? mean, I suppose after Katie-
2001 nights?
DJ (01:16:54.29)
Yeah
King Arthur did kind of bust the door open for logical failure.
Don't want to it.
I don't hate that. I actually love that a lot. That's very fun.
I would say Mulan, I think was probably the first hero in Smite. That's like technically not really a gun, but a fabled figure.
Tim (01:17:08.289)
yeah.
Tim (01:17:16.556)
Yeah. And then if we want to get really technical, we can go back to Guan Yu being a god. Because he's not technically a god, we just call him God of War and it's a whole thing.
Yeah, true, yeah.
Darien (01:17:29.006)
We can't get into that now. I want to talk about Thor.
Wait till Rick Ray Ordon writes a series about Chinese mythology. I'm gonna be on that Guan Yu episode.
He won't. That's what Ry Orden presents is an actual Chinese author or an author of the Chinese diaspora gets to write the Chinese mythology one.
Good, well if we ever do a Guan Yu episode, I'm there.
Okay.
AJ (01:17:54.062)
That's what's gonna happen to Rick when he dies. He gets inserted into the Chinese celestial biography.
Yeah, that's so funny. Just some white guy. Okay, okay, so I want to talk about Thor. Specifically, I want to talk about the mighty Thor. Specifically, I want to talk about Jane Foster's time as the mighty Thor. Specifically, I want to talk about the time.
Hahaha
Hell yeah.
AJ (01:18:16.162)
Please do. of which, we are getting ready to do another episode of These Fascinating Realities. That is going to be soon.
When Jane Foster had Mjolnir and was the mighty Thor in the comics, it was awesome. It was way better than what Thor Love and Thunder did, but I digress. And Odin was pretty pissed that some woman was running around with his son's hammer. So the first time he confronts her, he just keeps calling her thief. And she hits him in the face so hard he flies through a wall in his palace at Asgard.
And he says, today death comes for the would-be Thor. And she responds, today my hammer comes for your face.
That's a very good foster line
Absolutely, I can't.
Darien (01:19:06.926)
And they get in this incredible fight that takes them to the moons of Saturn Asgard is not anywhere near Saturn And there's this wonderful one. I love the panel layout on these and I'm just gonna read Jane's internal monologue as as they are fighting There was a time I was in love with the god who once carried this hammer
and he was in love with me. We came awfully close to spending our lives together. There was only one reason we never did. His name is Odin. I was never good enough for the Allfather, never worthy. A lot has changed since those days. So tell me old man, am I worthy enough for you now? As she picks up a goddamn meteor and slams it down on him. Nice. Anyway, yeah, it's super great. It's Odin, right?
Jane Foster as Thor is incredibly powerful, but it is still Odin. They are very heavily matched. Like at one point in time, they get to Jupiter and ignite the red spot on Jupiter and it just like plasma bursts out into the solar system. And it's, they're beating, they're going to kill each other. And the only reason the fighting stops is cause Loki stabs Freya. And he does that specifically to get them because he knows it's the one thing that will get them to stop fighting.
You
Darien (01:20:34.69)
So he stabs her, because later on, we get a scene with him sitting beside her as she's recovering. He's like, please, this means nothing. If you actually die, you're not supposed to die. So defense for Loki, my Loki agent of Asgard, boy, who I love. But also, also, yeah, fuck Odin, I guess. That's the one Odin pop culture thing I wanted to bring to the table this episode was like.
That's such a word!
Tim (01:21:01.57)
Pop Culture Odin is a douchebag.
Papa Ocean is a douchebag, and I love watching Jane Foster beat his ass.
Popcodes are owed to Zidus Fag because they take his character traits to a logical conclusion, but we'll get to that in a bit.
You know, I'm suddenly realizing that they let us punch Pop Culture out in a lot more than I think. This is good, he deserves it.
They do, yeah.
DJ (01:21:23.662)
you
This is also true.
got anything else pop culture wise for Odin. Again, I'm not bringing anything aside. I was gonna talk about American gods, but fuck Neil Gaiman.
Fuck, Neil's-
Yeah, I don't even want to touch that one with a 30 foot
AJ (01:21:42.984)
Okay, so there were two Odins I put in the show notes that represent the different extremes of how Odin is represented. So on the one end of what I think is the best Odin I've seen is Odin in Order of the Stick. Order of the Stick is a webcomic that started as a pretty typical D &D parody comic but evolved into what is essentially a modern-day Greek epic.
This is of has been going for 21 years straight and it's still not done and it is still it has some of the best writing I've ever seen and I love it and I absolutely recommend it But I can't get into that right right now. What we're here talking about is how the strip portrays Odin
So in the comic, Durkon is the party's cleric, a dwarf cleric, and he's the worshiper of Thor. So for most of the comic, how we see Odin is in response to, sometimes they'll make jokes about how, when you play a cleric in D &D, when you really think about it, you're usually asking your god for really weird and stupid things.
Mm-hmm.
So we usually see Odin in that context, like we'll cut to what's going on in Valhalla and Thor is getting a prayer and Odin's there and we usually see him for most of the comic. He kind of acts like a goofy grandpa. a paladin sends his mount to the Lelostia realm and Odin's like, ooh doggy. And Thor's like, dad, don't touch it, you don't know where it's been.
Darien (01:23:22.126)
You
And then, eventually we meet Odin in person and suddenly those earlier strips aren't as funny anymore. so in this setting, gods are shaped as much by how mortals leave in them as much as what the gods command their like tends to be. Like at one point Thor makes a joke. Yeah, I used to be a ginger until that superhero comic came out.
Nice.
So when we meet Thor, Odin, he's kind of out of it. Like he doesn't, he's not quite sure what's going on and he doesn't remember prophecies he's made. And Thor was like, no dad, you did do this. Like you made this prophecy so that Durkon would be in this place at this time. Thor, and no one's like, obviously so son, I trust you.
AJ (01:24:12.918)
And so we learned that in the previous world the gods made, the worshippers of the Norse pantheon were barbarians who thought magic was stupid.
And because Odin is a god of magic, that's not good for him. So Odin, as we see it for most of the comic, has brain damage.
Mm-hmm. No.
Darien (01:24:36.334)
That's so sad.
Yeah, and Thor was like, yeah, he'll be okay with a few more centuries of proper worship, but until then he has his good days and his bad days.
That's really sad!
It is.
He dropped that like a bomb on me out of nowhere in an unrelated conversation we had a couple of days ago And I did not know it was that sad until he explained it all He just said yeah, that's because that Odin has brain damage
Darien (01:25:03.438)
Timothy!
And there was a long pause that I just went, I guess that makes sense.
What am supposed to say to that?
Exactly.
Like, I what was going on about that stuff that's like the potential ending of the world and I was just like, what am I just playing? My hands are hand sized!
AJ (01:25:28.718)
And it's like, I can't be mad at you, but... Fuck, dude!
Before we swing to the you said this was like the one and it will be the other ones like the opposite of the spectrum Before we get to that DJ. Did you want to talk about the other Odin version that we see in a webcomic?
Yeah, so there's a two, one of them is still ongoing and I'm not caught up on it. The other one's Tomb Raider King. I've talked about it before. Somewhere I know I have because it involves like quote unquote relics that are representations of like the like gods of different pantheons or items and like stories, just things, right? Odin does show up. So does like everybody.
Uh-huh.
DJ (01:26:15.928)
pretty much but a lot of them are passing and it's just kind of like a small arc because right now the main character is trying to free moonen
who has been helping him by extending some of her power out there. It's insane. Odin shows up and he recognizes that the main character is using Gungnir.
Darien (01:26:44.478)
yeah.
using recognizes and like feels that moon and has been helping this fella and Obviously not super stoked about that. So starts trying to get all of his stuff back So he summons sleep near But our main character manages to take control over sleep near when he's something sweet. Just like keeps taking shit from Odin It's it's a lot of fun Odin's we don't we don't get really much of him he essentially
loses to the main character and the main character's like, great, I got all these cool relics now and puts them in storage.
I'm just like, that's my stuff.
Not anymore.
DJ (01:27:25.666)
The other one's called, I obtained a mythic item or mythic item obtained depending on the translation you go with. And, this is the one that I'm not caught up on, but I just saw a picture that he does show up. that's cool. But this one is it's one of those hunter ones, you know, I don't know. Maybe you don't, but it's like, portal starts showing up humans, get powers, right? Okay. And this guy,
At the end of his life, he finds a mythic item and it's Odin's eye. The eye that Odin's And that allows him, like he dies right then and allows him to revert back in time before a bunch of shit went down so he could actually change it. Nice. It's a lot of fun. It's really cool. The Aesir are kind of jackasses in that one.
.
Darien (01:28:20.829)
For sure.
Excited to see where that one goes. Just need to pick it back up again.
Hey Tim, is your next one the one that you and AJ really really hate Odin in?
Yes it is. this is other extreme of Oden. So this is Oden in the Warcraft universe.
He's such a B I
AJ (01:28:40.366)
Now if you're a stand-by patreon, this is not gonna go on for three hours But this is important and we need we need you to know how much this guy fucking sucks
I not- Tim, I honestly- I think that's my one complaint with when we did that Patreon episode is I think we didn't dedicate enough time to how much of an asshole Odin is.
I mean, we didn't intentionally because we knew we were gonna do it now, and I need as many people as possible to hear this. I don't want to limit to our patrons.
This is true. I do also enjoy getting paid to talk about, you know, how much Odin is an asshole. He has a Y instead of the I in case you know what kind of level of assholery we're already dealing with. Yeah, he's terrible. He's the worst.
I fucking hate that. Fuck this guy.
AJ (01:29:26.146)
Okay, so Ognum Warcraft is not a capital G god, he's a lowercase G god. In that he's what's known as a titan keeper, which is basically what in most settings you would consider a demi god, but compared to mortals, still really damn powerful.
Yeah, as in like most of the Titan Keepers are worshipped by gods by mortal races and Odin importantly is worshipped by a god by the Vrykul which are essentially just Warcraft's version of Vikings.
Yeah, pretty much. So when Azeroth was young, the Titans sent their titan keepers to Azeroth to rid them of the old gods. And Odin was the leader of those titan keepers. So they did it and everything worked out great. And then some time goes by and some stuff happens in Warcraft that we can't get into. And so the Titans say, hey, these dragons are really cool.
We're gonna empower five of them and they're gonna be the dragon aspects and they're gonna be the protectors to this world. And no one is like, wait, we were the protectors to this world. I'm not. They took our germs!
Yeah, that is literally Odin's take on it is that they should not empower the dragons and instead bring them all under control because dragons couldn't be trusted. Only those- the Titans could be trusted to defend the planet.
DJ (01:30:40.649)
No!
Darien (01:30:57.671)
no, Odin! So cringe!
So in response, Odin takes about half of the facility Ud'war and he raises it into the sky and it becomes the Halls of Valor, which is basically Valhalla. And so from there, he starts doing the typical Odin stuff. he cuts out his eye, he has his raven companions, and he starts getting, you know, I want to start making Valkyries, which they call Valkyr. Yep.
Okay.
AJ (01:31:29.726)
So he goes to the version their version of hell was to call hell hell yeah, he's like hey You're gonna be the first of my of of alkyr and you're gonna guide righteous souls To me that have died gloriously in battle And hell is like, no i'm not really into that
No thank you.
I think we could also get into everything about sacrificing his eye because that becomes a major plot point in one of the worst expansions, which means Odin caused us way more trouble than he's worth.
We will get to that.
You
Tim (01:32:03.63)
But yeah, Helia is one of the other Titanforged. the reason Odin forms the Halls of Valor essentially is that he wants to create his own private army to enforce his will and defend the planet of Cece's fit. So when he tells Helia that, Helia goes, maybe we shouldn't do that because the planet's doing all right and I don't think we really need to like abduct souls to defend the planet.
Good point.
But Odin's like, I'm in charge of the Titanforged, so screw you, and transforms her against her will. And told her to do it anyways.
Yeah, yeah, not cool, man. Yay!
Then he went on because here's the thing we only found out really recently but makes perfect sense and also I talk about it all the time because this is like one of my favorite plot points in modern Warcraft lore. Odin has gaslit all of creation into believing his version of events, basically.
AJ (01:32:59.55)
Yeah
I'm
Well, aggressively, I'm passing, nice.
Like he has like there's this book that we found relatively recently called the edicts of the prime designate and odin is the prime designate of the titans or was at the time of the of its writing where he says yeah essentially we're keeping like half of the universe a secret to mortals and to everybody that isn't titan forged because their puny tiny little minds couldn't possibly comprehend it and if they did comprehend it they might start questioning the titans
wow, huh, yeah, interesting.
DJ (01:33:37.122)
Sick.
and then essentially goes, if you disagree with me, I will fuck you up and tell everybody it was your fault. Which is exactly what he did to Helya, because he then went on to convince everybody that Helya got transformed into a valkyr because she got too arrogant for her own good.
That's so fucked up!
It is inco-
Incredibly fucked up.
AJ (01:33:58.35)
And so after that, Helya comes more into the role of Hela as we traditionally know her, but that's a start of another time.
Also, she's like one of the very few justified villains in Warcraft. Like she gets into some evil powers, not gonna deny that. But at the same time, she only got exposed to those powers because Odin decided to turn her into those powers.
really is.
Yeah.
Darien (01:34:18.936)
same time.
Darien (01:34:24.782)
This is Owen's fault.
Yes. It is 100 % Odin's fault. So, as the player, we first meet Odin during the Legion expansion, and Legion has this thing where it has a main campaign, and depending on your player class, it had a separate campaign just for that. So Odin was central to the campaign for warriors, and I made a warrior. So, how it starts is, you go to this place where at beginning of the expansion,
You try- all the factions were staging a major assault and everyone died. So naturally, you go back there again.
Of course.
And you, as the PC, die. Yeah. So one of the Valkyr raises you and says, rise warrior, it's not your time yet. And she brings you into the Halls of Valor. And from there Odin says, champion, you are the greatest warrior on Azeroth. You shall lead the Valarjar in my name.
Darien (01:35:06.188)
Whoa.
Darien (01:35:27.884)
Okay.
And so, when you're first playing this in 2016 and you don't know anything else, I am the best warrior in Azeroth, this is awesome!
And then you start playing the campaign and realize how much this guy fucking SUCKS!
I only started it a couple of weeks ago and Tim specifically told me when I started it, great you'll get to see what I'm talking about. And yeah the campaign, like if he wasn't already a jerk from what you see in the main campaign and everything we find out about him later, my god he almost entirely makes the whole thing about him.
Darien (01:35:54.057)
You
AJ (01:36:07.47)
Yeah, so I don't like to get into content that didn't make it to live, but in the beta, the warrior campaign was like, you were going through time recruiting the best warriors from Azeroth's history. Every dead warrior that had a name, you were bringing them into the Halls of Vow and you were bringing them and their strength to fight the Legion. And that's awesome!
Yeah!
Which is, it's supposed to be akin to what Odin does with souls in Valhalla. Yeah.
That's not what made to watch.
What made it to live?
AJ (01:36:43.33)
What made it to live is you essentially go around gathering a bunch of the titan wars. at Warcraft sequel to Thor, Thorm, he had existed well before Odin and you spend a lot of time on him and it's like, I mean, fine, but I don't care as much about Odin as I do about Varian or about Cairne. And like,
Two of whom are important world leaders and warriors in Warcraft history. Both of whom had died relatively recently at the time of Like Varian had died at the beginning of Legion.
And like, you're sending me to find off these... random Raichol artifacts, which I'm sure are important to you... But they're not as important as the fucking acts of Cenarius!
A legendary weapon which was used in the first war against the Legion to almost kill Sargeras who commands the Legion.
Yeah, why would you want to go for a weapon that almost killed the big bad of this expansion?
Darien (01:37:40.494)
So they did a bad version of the- this is what you mean by it's like the worst expansion?
No, no, no,
And it's entirely because Odin has entirely hijacked it.
And then in the normal campaign, one of the zones, Stormheim, is all about the Vrykul. And through it, you're meeting this guy named Javi, who, if you have an ounce of mini-literacy, you can peg, okay, you're clearly Odin in disguise.
He is followed around by a gigantic raven called a Hewnan for most of the story.
Darien (01:38:17.405)
my god, so not even kind of subtle.
No, not at all.
No, it's very clearly out.
And if you're like me and you finish the warrior campaign before you do the main campaign, once you get to the end of the main campaign and Javi reveals himself as Ohne, he's like, excuse me, battle lord. My deception was necessary. You knew who I was this entire time and you made me go through all that bullshit.
Supposed to know?
Tim (01:38:51.756)
Because for the record, the Stormheim campaign, the pl- Yeah, basically. Because the Stormheim campaign is basically Javi telling you, you have to prove yourself to Odin. You have to prove yourself to Odin to gain his power. And then you get to the end and goes, haha, psych bitch, I was Odin the whole time. Now you gotta prove yourself to me again.
What?
DJ (01:39:14.476)
You cocksucker.
And then he's
It continues on because you do a whole dungeon to prove yourself worthy of the artifact you are in Stormheim to get and then he goes, I'll let you have it. But I'm not actually helping you unless you kill Helia for me.
Jesus!
So then you go on a raid to do just that but you can't just go and kill Helia you have to go to the halls of Elr again and Fight Odin's chosen to do it
Tim (01:39:47.5)
And then fight Odin again, because he's not convinced after the last dozen times you've earned his favor and proven yourself. You have to prove yourself again, because like we said earlier, Odin doesn't trust anything that isn't... specifically forged by a titan.
think I want to play this game.
Yeah, it's water rock.
Great game! Odin's just like the villain nobody ever knew we needed.
And like what like best about this is like it's Odin being a villain only by exacerbating character traits that have existed for Odin since the Vietas. Like he does he does the undercover boss shit. He does cutting cutting his eye out for knowledge. It's all this just taken to its logical extreme.
Darien (01:40:19.924)
Yeah, was pretty good.
Darien (01:40:30.392)
Mm-hmm.
But we're not done yet, because Odin
What my god
So the next thing we see.
is like one of the... I don't want to call him a principal character, but he ends up essentially creating the main plot of the worst expansion in the game, Shadowlands.
AJ (01:40:49.26)
So, yeah, so next time we see him is in Shadowlands.
That was the expansion that had a lot of people go to Final Fantasy XIV.
Yes, it was. speaking of someone who played Shadowlands Spring End to End, I can't blame you. I really can. It fucking sucked.
It was a big exodus. It really put like a hard hit to Final Fantasy servers. Those queue times were like two, three hours at one.
Like, for years upon years, people talked about the WoW killer, and you just had to wait for WoW to do it.
DJ (01:41:21.918)
Yeah, while shooting himself in the foot.
Yeah, well, just kind of put itself out of its misery for a couple of years. But it's making a comeback.
To the point.
Maybe, we'll see. Blizzard's not really doing great in their long-term games right now. Other companies really are stepping up.
No, its numbers are the best they've been in a decade.
AJ (01:41:39.15)
Yeah, the game's good state right now, but that's what we're talking about. So Shadowlands is all about the realms of death. And so you meet Odin after the first major content patch, where now Hellye is being a more active antagonist. Like you saw her at the very beginning, but she didn't really do anything aside from establish that like, hey, you're in my domain now.
Yeah.
Darien (01:42:03.33)
You're in my world now.
Exactly. me, as a warrior main, who has been a warrior main since 2008, I just, I get pulled into the Hawsevallor again, and everyone's like, Ah! Welcome, battle lord! So I'm like, so asshole, are you gonna actually help this time, or are you just gonna pontificate and make me do all the work? Oh, I'm doing all the work? Okay.
AJ (01:42:34.646)
And so he doesn't really do anything of substance aside from remind you that he is in fact a complete fucking asshole. And is only not an antagonist because his goals align with the PC's.
Mm-hmm.
Tim (01:42:48.75)
It's really funny if you're not a warrior getting called into that storyline because he essentially just yanks you into his chamber and goes, hey Mortal, I don't trust you, but I can't be bothered to do this myself
Hehehehehe
You know how we talked about how Odin sacrificed his eye? We didn't talk about who he sacrificed it to. Because it's not Mimir. It is a troll god known as Muehzala. Who is essentially not really the god of the dead, but more the god of death.
Okay.
They have an actual god of the dead whose name is Bwonsamdi and he's great. A little bit of a menace, but he's great. Muehzala is very evil and works with basically every other villain you could ever possibly think of with any connection to death. And in one of the least set up Warcraft villains of all time, what Muehzala does is he hands Odin's eye to a guy known as the Jailer.
Darien (01:43:42.286)
Mm.
Tim (01:43:53.432)
who's essentially just the keeper of damned souls.
and almost single-handedly killed the franchise.
and almost single-handedly killed the franchise because he showed up out of nowhere and claimed responsibility for the entire plot of the entire franchise.
That's it, champion! Poop out those ember seeds!
god.
Tim (01:44:14.22)
That joke won't make sense to a lot of people, but to the people it does.
It will make sense to the right people.
you
Yeah, it don't make sense to the people it needs to make sense to. Yeah, so Odin's Eye is a literal boss fight in one of the raids. Because the Jailer turns it into a weapon and essentially reverses the connection. So what we find out is that the Jailer used Odin's Eye to essentially see how Odin gave his eye to understand all of the realm of death. The Jailer used the eye to understand all of the realms of the living.
Hell yeah.
Darien (01:44:49.868)
Which is kind of interesting, except everything around it sucks. So it's not. Yeah, so you just have Odin's eye following you around, telling you how the Jailer's gonna win, and then you go to a raid and you kill the Eye of the Jailer, which is Odin's eye. And Odin doesn't really react to that. Actually, when you fi- Actually, when Odin finds out you're gonna, like, strike down his eye, he's like, cool, I've been meaning to do that for a while. Why didn't you?
Huh.
Tim (01:45:19.702)
You have access to do it. Didn't care. Yeah, Odin basically tells you he didn't care until now. And he doesn't care that the jailer is trying to destroy all of reality to rewrite the rules between life and death. He just cares that the jailer has his eye.
Let's go.
AJ (01:45:37.228)
Because that doesn't affect his position!
Well, this is Odin with a Y, not Odin with an I, so. Yeah.
Exactly. so, then after that... No!
No, that was a bad joke. Don't all three of you be like, yeah, no, so like, no, that was nothing. I gave you nothing. That doesn't make sense. Soden still does have one eye. Like, it'd be like if it was two eyes, they changed one of them to like, no, don't encourage me.
He may have an eye, but he sure doesn't have any vision.
Darien (01:46:04.342)
That's a joke!
So then Odin drops out of the plot of Shallowlands after that. And we don't see him again until the following expansion, Dragonflake. Which, as the name implies, is all about the dragons. So during that we meet a dragon named Virenoth. And she is... She is an old...
Dragon Liberation Front, think I could roughly summarize her politics as.
Beardoth is the best. Beardoth is the best.
Like, if Odin didn't trust the dragons in ordering them, Virenoth is like the leader of a group of dragons who doesn't trust the titans.
AJ (01:46:44.404)
Let me put it this way. Vyrnoth is the mean gay you wanted to be a Yeah.
yeah!
Literally.
So in the last major major patch for Dragonflight Virenoth learns about how Odin feels about dragons, which is that he doesn't like dragons But what he did do was he subjugated an entire subspecies of dragons to his will the storm dragons eventually basically they Their circumstances means that they're forced to serve Odin and she's like what?
Don't look.
Tim (01:47:24.938)
Yeah, because we know that the Storm Dragons and Odin have a connection, but the way Odin explains that in Legion is that he gave them their power, which we understand because the Vrykul consider Odin the Storm God. So we go, okay, so he imbued them with some of his power as like a reaction to empowering the other dragons. He created them wholesale, specifically to control them.
Okay.
AJ (01:47:50.03)
Now all the other stuff about how Odin violated his adopted daughter's free will, how he's subjugating other races into his service, that doesn't matter. But the fact that he subjugated dragons to his wife, that got Birnauf's attention. Well to be fair-
Mm-hmm.
Tim (01:48:09.806)
Viernauth was very upset about.
She is, I get maybe why she has like specific things she's gonna personally care about.
she absolutely does. So she goes to the halls of valor and kicks Odin's ass.
Mm-hmm.
Darien (01:48:26.271)
Nice!
And like, only reason he doesn't kill me, it's very base, like, in your moments, I want you to remember, I beat-
I do love that as a trope like I want you to live on knowing that I bested you and she
And she goes to all the storm dragons and stuff, there's like, Odin is undone by my hand. Be free. And all the storm dragons leave to go join Byrnoff.
Nice.
Tim (01:48:56.024)
We also get one of the best choices for player dialogue and I think the entire game's 20 year history.
Yeah, okay, so when Veeranoth announces her intention to go after Odin, for most players you'll see, uh, I can't wait to punch Odin in the face, or Odin is powerful, we should be careful. But like me, if you're a warrior main and you've done the warrior campaign, you will see, I know Odin personally, we should be careful, or I know Odin personally, I cannot wait.
You punch him in the face! That's so good!
So.
I think the exact line is, I know Odin personally, I cannot express how long I've been waiting to punch him in the face.
DJ (01:49:41.912)
Nice, hell yeah.
I just looked at Vyrnoth. Yeah, she's fucking great. Wow, look at her.
was amazing.
Virenov is the best.
Virenath is so good it made me hate a character I or made me love a character I used to hate just because he hung out with her.
Darien (01:49:58.286)
Yeah, that's high praise right there.
Well does anyone, does anyone hate, does anyone actually hate Rathion or are they just annoyed with Rathion because he's against a carnagen?
Yes. Both of those things are true.
Hahaha!
It's Odin in Warcraft is probably the biggest example of how far you can take typical Odin traits to make them an antagonist without actually making him an antagonist.
Darien (01:50:30.03)
Yeah, here's what I love. As soon as I was like, okay, Tim and AJ hate Odin. They must hate Odin because of some sort of like pop culture thing, because the Ed-Es do not support this level. But I was like, this is a deep hate, I'm so excited. And what I'm trying to get at is that it makes the most sense that it's not just Odin from a movie, a comic, a one-off video game. It's Odin in...
Warcraft this long ongoing campaign that like this character has been a thorn in your side for Ten most two decades
years.
Yeah.
And so the hatred
AJ (01:51:10.286)
He first appeared in 2016, so nine years.
so nine years of the ubi that was like you were said you do a lawyer since o eight he appeared in yeah so almost a decade that hatred has been brewing it's like a fine t you are given enough time to see and then you take it
Exactly.
And wrap it all up. are, like, everybody I've talked to about it is 99.9 % sure he is going to be one of the villains by the end of this trilogy of expansion.
I was honestly shocked he wasn't the right boss in Dragonflight.
Tim (01:51:45.068)
Yeah, so was I, honestly.
It sounds as they understand the next step.
Because there have been characters who are more conventionally heroic than we have had as raid bosses for lesser pretenses.
Yeah, and the ending of Dragonflight is essentially the dragons getting their powers back and realizing they're not bound to the Titans anymore. Tyr, one of the other Titan Keepers who is much friendlier to the dragons, even starts going, yeah, I really don't know how I feel about that. I don't know if I trust that. And basically what everybody said in response to that was, if Tyr is saying this, how do you think
Odin feels right now. So we're all pretty sure we're gonna have to kill Odin before long.
Darien (01:52:31.702)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (01:52:35.886)
Well, I look forward to y'all getting too much Odin
You
I'll take out his other eye when I go for it.
That's perfect. I think with that, let's-
Great! I missed one.
Darien (01:52:53.964)
You didn't though, DJ. You didn't miss one. Which one did you miss?
So Odin shows up twice in the E-Series. Under two different names.
Is it over?
There it is.
Yeah, that's Odin, alright.
Darien (01:53:09.891)
Go.
So in East 9, Monstrum Nox, it's very Norse heavy. fact, the region, it's like the mythology that this game like takes from is literally like the in-game name of it is Norse without the E at the end of it. And the two head gods are Grimnir and Luki.
So Grimnir's just Odin.
Yeah, and Grimnir is just O.
It means Mast One. We talked about that earlier.
DJ (01:53:39.298)
Yeah, Grimnir had like Valkyries that he had like tasked with keeping the loom. Loom. I can't remember how they pronounced it. Loom arrays. Loomers in Czech. And yeah, they've been dealing with that for the last 500 years. then in fucking in East 10, he shows up again under the name Har.
Once again, just one of Odin's names.
Just one of Owen's names though.
One of his 170 names.
Yep, just one of them. And it's, again, this one actually it's the Normans though instead of the Norse. Oh interesting. Both me and Aiden were like, it's just kind of weird that Odin shows up twice.
Darien (01:54:29.134)
I had a nickel. AJ, you want to say that really good line one more time?
Well, I'll take out his other eye when I go for it.
AJ (01:54:50.422)
Thank you so much for having us, this was a wonderful time, I'm glad we were here.
Yeah, this is a monumental occasion, episode 100.
Thank you guys so much for joining us. It was a blast having you.
Where can our listeners find more of you?
Darien (01:55:12.878)
I've many cups that I thought were empty and saw they got full again.
You can find us on standby line. We're available just about anywhere muses of mythology as I would bet.
Yeah, I just can't articulate the words of where we are.
Beyond that, can't find me anywhere else. I've been very careful about that.
Adria's smarter than everyone else.
AJ (01:55:35.794)
He is. I'm not sure I'd admit that. Occasionally we post on Instagram usually when one of us does something fun at the park that we want to share pictures of.
Or when Darian has access to the Instagram.
Which was the one time, and I didn't even use it as much as I wanted to. no, no-
You still do have access.
Logged out out of respect and I didn't save the password like I I would never do that to y'all I should have though what I should have done to stayed in there because it's like when we do fun stuff at the parks we post on Instagram No, you post in the discord server. That's where you post the fun done at the parks. That doesn't make it to the Instagram So yeah, I should have stayed logged in so I could fucking take the pictures you put in the discord server and put on your goddamn Instagram where they belong
Tim (01:56:17.648)
Then people could find me other places. I gotta pay for that information.
you post after you were there You don't post while you're there. All right. It's the end of the episode, which means it's the end of season 5 We are done talking about Norse mythology unless another book comes out
Yeah!
Darien (01:56:40.686)
Which means it is time for the traditional in-between seasons Muses hiatus DJ. When will we be back?
April.
You
That was very matter of fact.
April, yeah?
DJ (01:56:57.302)
I assume April 8th?
I, you know, we could say April 1st, but I don't think anyone would believe us. So yeah, Tuesday, April the 8th. It's a little bit of a longer break. So rather than going radio silent, like we usually do, we will be releasing episodes from Bunker Nine on the main feed during hiatus, still with a bi-weekly release schedule. So we don't want to be completely zero gone for y'all. We want to...
Also, because I want to maintain downloads. That's really... I gotta maintain so we don't have a hard crash. you'll still be getting content on the main feed. And if you're a Patreon, you're like, why? I've already listened to that. You have, but we will still be posting Patreon stuff because y'all are paying us. So you still get all the new stuff. Don't even worry about it, gang. Tim, I got you.
is a strong motivator.
I'll tell you what, it's not gonna take another three years to get us back on because Egypt mythology? I am fucking on that!
Darien (01:58:00.174)
we haven't formally announced it yet. Yeah, so we're gonna come back in April. We're gonna start with the King Chronicles everybody It's time to get into Egyptian mythology. Let's go
Was a fucking Egyptology kid.
I gotta look into that. I may have to jump in on a couple of points too.
If we thought it was hard to do Norse mythology, you wait to hear how unraveled Darien becomes trying to handle Egyptian mythology. It's gonna be a time.
Just wait until you have to start parsing out what was Hellenistic and what was actually authentically Egyptian.
DJ (01:58:35.118)
I'm hug you!
We don't know. We don't know. It's just like this all over again. But hey, DJ's gonna-
Ross said Alexander was the son of Zeus.
Darien (01:58:47.832)
So, and DJ's never read the Kane Chronicles before, so this will be fun for him. He gets to the magicians. I think DJ, you're gonna love the magicians.
I'd say I do what it worked, but we actually don't have the King Kong Chronicles in my school library.
You don't! That's-
I
We have I know we've at least that we have we've pretty Jackson. We've at least the first Magnus Chase We don't we definitely don't have King Chronicles
Tim (01:59:11.47)
I I a couple of the Kin Chronicles books in my personal library because I just found them in places.
Yeah, I mean, obviously, but like growing up my life, like I read all these books coming out from the library because I was a kid and I wasn't being able to like buy these books with my own money. own them obviously, I'm a grown up.
The public library work at Hazy is the school library does not.
That's so strange. I mean, no, I guess that kinda makes sense.
If I'm hey if the podcast mailed the school you work at copies of the Kane Chronicles, would you put them in the library?
AJ (01:59:45.344)
can make barcodes and them in the system.
Yeah, okay Yeah, I mean yeah, we could do that could be a fucking monthly donation is we're gonna send the tank radicals to this New York library where Tim works so the children can read them We need to leave this episode has four audio tracks and is over two hours long so future is Gonna down is Gonna down this witches brew Alani knew that my stepsister gave me
Who needs-
It's approval!
Darien (02:00:18.432)
It was-
Where did you find that? We are not selling that anymore, Darian. That is not being stocked anywhere. My company delivers that shit. Okay? That's my company.
She stocked up in October, but the but that bitch is pregnant again, so Excited for her no, it's wonderful. We're so happy for her. It's gonna be I call her bitch. It's affectionate No, we're so happy for her. So excited for her like it's gonna be wonderful They want to have like a bunch of kids so but she's like I said like do you have a witches brew? She's like I bought a bunch and now I can't drink it Do you want it? Please take it out of my house? I can't even have it so
I'm sorry!
Darien (02:00:57.902)
Yeah, so Future is gonna chug that edit for audio track two hour long episode, but hey It's not what Leo from gaming theater presents had to do so Plug for another podcast plug for our patreon place your comm for I'll let you do it
at patreon.com/musesofmythology You better believe it. have so much wonderful content over there. We'd love to see you over there. Simply $5 a month is going to get you all of our bunker nine bonus episodes. There's a ton of content and when I see-
As a patron, I'm very satisfied with the library. Thank you.
Thank you so much. mean, quite literally as many main feed episodes as there are Bunker Nine episodes, as well as on top of that, the rest of Muse Miss. I know you all got one for free. If you really like that, there's more. There are 33 more episodes to Muse Miss that you guys have.
So if you miss us over the next two months, that's where can find us. You can also find us on Instagram. You can also find us on YouTube. The goddess videos I've been posting have been doing like super well over there. like... Yeah, you can find us there too, I guess. Maybe I'll do more long form content over the break and experiment. But hey, thank you again, Tim and AJ. Thank you all dear listeners. If this is your very first episode, hey, welcome. I hope you enjoyed it. If you've been with us since episode one...
Darien (02:02:22.542)
I think it was yeah, we called episode one and now they're called stories when became if you were here from podcast to beside to today Thank you
My first episode was on four years ago.
Yeah, we talk about storkules then.
We did, yes, and that was a lot of fun.
The cruel march of time makes fools of us all.
Darien (02:02:44.224)
With that, we will be back in your ears on Tuesday, April the 8th, to talk about The King Chronicles. And until then, don't be like Zeus.
Don't be like Zeus.
See you real soon. Toodles.
Muses of Mythology is created and hosted by Darren and DJ Smart. It's edited by Darren Smart. The show is produced by Darren and DJ Smart as well as
O'Connor. The Crystal Con Man. Nicholas Miller. Our music is Athens Festival by Martin Hayne and our cover art is by Audrey Miller. You can find her on Instagram at Bombshell Nutshell Art.
Darien (02:03:17.324)
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