Story 57: Daedalus says 'Ethics are Optional' (w/ Lochlyn)

"Ethics are optional."

Our favorite grad student Lochlyn (she/her) joins the pod to discuss the incredibly creative and ethically ambiguous mythological inventor Daedalus! Was he just one guy? Was he really from Athens? And what was up with the nephew murder?

Other talking points include the bizarre human impulse to feel threatened by greatness that is not one's own, Chiron not being the worst teacher ever, why Daedalus should have been a son of Hespestaus, and mild slander towards a decades-old live-action Disney movie.

Check out Lochlyn's book recommendation, Kaikeyi by Vaishnavi Patel (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/57127277-kaikeyi)

Spoilers for Circe, Terraria, Hades, Spy Kids 2: The Island of Lost Dreams, Spy Kids 3D, Shark Boy and Lava Girl, Kim Possible, Powerpuff Girls, Back to the Future, and Tron

Content Warning: This episode contains mentions of and conversations about child death, parental neglect, murder, bestality, and physical violence.

The One That Got Away Bonus Episodes up at Bunker 9: Patreon.com/musesofmythology

About Us

Muses of Mythology was created and co-hosted by Darien and DJ Smartt.

Our music is Athens Festival by Martin Haene. Our cover art is by Audrey Miller. Find her on Instagram @bombshellnutshellart

Love the podcast? Support us on Patreon and get instant access to bloopers, outtakes, and bonus episodes! Patreon.com/musesofmythology

You can also leave us a 5-star rating and review on your favorite podcatcher at Lovethepodcast.com/musesofmythology

Find us @MusesOfMyth on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. Find all of our episodes and episode transcripts at MusesOfMythology.com

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Darien:

Welcome to Muses of Mythology, a podcast where we explore how ancient myths become modern pop culture. This week we continue our journey through Rick Riodan’s Percy Jackson and the Olympians with Story Fifty-seven: Daedalus. I'm your host and podcasting muse Darian Smartt. Joining me is my co-host, brother and the birthday boy, D, J.

DJ:

How is everybody doing today? We are recording this on my birthday and I am the muse of DJ. Let me tell you, mordern architecture. Not a fan.

Darien:

Before we start this episode, we got a muse around the garden, because that's where your birthday cake is at, so we'll be right back in a minute. 

[Theme break] 

Darien:

Alright, DJ! For your birthday, I got you something special.

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

I got us an amazing guest.

DJ:

You got me a person for my birthday? Darien, that

Darien:

No,

DJ:

seems a little problematic/

Darien:

I got you an experience of getting talk-  of getting to speak with former podcaster and struggling grad student Lochlyn!

Lochlyn:

Happy birthday, DJ and thank you both for having me on.

DJ:

Of course,

Darien:

Yeah, Lochlyn. we are talking about Daedalus, which is the episode you've requested to be on. So to start out with, Uh, want to let us know a little bit about what speaks to you about Daedalus, and then maybe just like, let the listeners know what your deal is. Like. what's your Riordanverse affiliation?

Lochlyn:

I guess we'll start off then with Daedalus, so I just think that he as an entity is just so fascinating to me, like when I was a kid, I love to watch how it's made like I was obsessed with that like I was sitting on the T. V for hours like everyone was watching Glee. I was watching how it's made like. I just love learning about how everything works and how intricate different processes are of making things that we use every day. 

And then there are so many things like I'm sure we'll talk about that he, he invented and all of that. And so I just like I just connected with that part Of him and then reading his whole story line, Percy Jackson. That was always That was fun for me growing up. So yeah,I just think he's a cool dude. Also very has a little dark side too, which I enjoy as well. So

DJ:

nice.

Lochlyn:

and then, as far as Percy Jackson, I actually first heard about the book from the girl who sat next to me on the bus In elementary school. She was reading the page about Labyrinth with the Pecabeth Kiss, and I was reading over her shoulder. Oh, what's this romance

DJ:

Scandalous.

Lochlyn:

that? I need to read

Darien:

I see.

Lochlyn:

this, And so I knew that was going to happen as I started reading all the books for the first time,

Darien:

I'm

Lochlyn:

So I was reading the books to

Darien:

nice,

Lochlyn:

build up to that moment. So I was going

DJ:

M.

Lochlyn:

in a dither, person,

DJ:

Hm.

Lochlyn:

but fan before I even knew

Darien:

Very

Lochlyn:

who they were

Darien:

seaweed brain of you. Yeah,

DJ:

That's a lot of fun.

Lochlyn:

right Right. So that was my introduction to Percy Jackson and then

DJ:

Nice.

Lochlyn:

I did

Darien:

I,

Lochlyn:

have

Darien:

too,

Lochlyn:

a podcast

Darien:

was introduced.

Lochlyn:

for a while.

Darien:

I, too, was introduced to Percy Jackson by a person sitting next to me on on a bus.

Lochlyn:

Wow, we

Darien:

It's

Lochlyn:

are just

Darien:

remarkable.

Lochlyn:

so connected

Darien:

Just really

Lochlyn:

in that

Darien:

get

Lochlyn:

way.

Darien:

now. And so. if you were in this universe, who who? Where would your affiliation be lockin? Where would you come from? Where would we find you?

Lochlyn:

Yeah, so I'm thinking these days well when I was younger, I wanted to be a child of Hades. You seem very

Darien:

Oh

Lochlyn:

very cool of me. you

DJ:

M.

Lochlyn:

know very like

DJ:

hm,

Darien:

yeah,

Lochlyn:

niche, Right and now, though I'm thinking I would be more like a child of Hermes, you know, God travellers,

Darien:

Oh

DJ:

M.

Lochlyn:

I'm finished.

Darien:

H.

Lochlyn:

I'm finishing grad school this year in New York. I'll be moving back

Darien:

Congratulations.

Lochlyn:

home for a bit to study. Thank you. Thank

DJ:

Nice,

Lochlyn:

you, me back home to study to hopefully get my license and then moving out of that state Somewhere else to then start my life. So there's a lot of traveling going on

Darien:

Nice

Lochlyn:

these days,

Darien:

big

DJ:

Nice.

Lochlyn:

and additionally,

DJ:

exciting.

Darien:

big things.

Lochlyn:

thank you, Yes, and additinally, I'm getting a degree within the health care field and all of that so just

Darien:

Hm.

Lochlyn:

very much in that whole world.

Darien:

I love that I'm going to turn off my camera real quick and see if that may be helps with Feed lag stuff because I still feel like it might be hitting a little bit. Okay.

DJ:

It was seemed fine to me,

Darien:

I

Lochlyn:

Hm,

Darien:

feel like I thought Okay. Never mind. I turn that back on. Okay, So fantastic. Well, let's dive right in Lochlin. What do you remember about Daedalus from the Percy Jackson series.

Lochlyn:

Yes, so I just remember the big twist of when it was revealed that he was

Darien:

M.

Lochlyn:

Quinton, right in the

Darien:

Yes,

Lochlyn:

fourth book. Yes, Yes, and so all of that drama of how everyone thought he was the bad guy. He was the spy at camp when really he was there trying to help prepare everyone for what was to come, and then, obviously

Darien:

Hm,

Lochlyn:

the big moment where he gives an Beth the laptop and

Darien:

Yeah,

Lochlyn:

everything that then That gives her going

DJ:

M.

Lochlyn:

forward through

DJ:

hm.

Lochlyn:

even the series After that.

Darien:

To forget the laptop. The laptop

Lochlyn:

Yeah,

Darien:

is so good. It's just just this great thing that I feel like it's never really fully

DJ:

It's a great thing And then you like Lose it within Mark of Athena.

Lochlyn:

Yes,

Darien:

Okay, But she had it for a while.

Lochlyn:

Sure,

DJ:

I know,

Lochlyn:

but she

DJ:

but

Lochlyn:

was also

DJ:

it's still

Lochlyn:

rebuilding

DJ:

like

Lochlyn:

Olympus at the time and so couldn't

Darien:

Yeah,

Lochlyn:

really do any of the things that were in it. And it's

Darien:

Yeah,

Lochlyn:

just by.

DJ:

It was just a magic laptop that was constantly updating its parts.

Darien:

Yep,

Lochlyn:

Yeah,

Darien:

yep,

Lochlyn:

I feel like the only big thing she actually did with it that we saw was when she showed Frank the model of the finger trap.

DJ:

Yeah,

Lochlyn:

That's the

Darien:

Yeah,

Lochlyn:

only thing I remember

DJ:

she

Lochlyn:

her actually

DJ:

and then

Lochlyn:

using

DJ:

tricked

Lochlyn:

it for.

DJ:

arachne into making it.

Lochlyn:

Yeah,

Darien:

Time we see her going through it, hoping there is like maybe there's something in the laptop that can help us and I don't think

Lochlyn:

Hm,

Darien:

she actually finds anything that's useful, So it's more of this really great concept and like a really interesting prop to have, but I don't know if anything is ever fully materialized

DJ:

She only ever

Darien:

From

DJ:

used it

Darien:

it

DJ:

for three D modeling. She probably used it when she was designing Olympus, Just

Darien:

Is

DJ:

like

Darien:

true.

DJ:

modeling it in laptop, and then showing the guys

Darien:

Hm.

DJ:

like, Yeah, this was cool. cool. All right. Let's get it

Darien:

Nice.

DJ:

going.

Darien:

It's like how you design theme park rites. Yeah, yeah, you know I

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

got

DJ:

Exactly

Darien:

it

Lochlyn:

Hm,

Darien:

now.

DJ:

playing relates to tycoon every now and again, Who's to say like

Darien:

It was to say you know, Percy has definitely

Lochlyn:

What

Darien:

asked

Lochlyn:

if

Darien:

her

Lochlyn:

she?

Darien:

if he can play rolacosortaken.

DJ:

Yeah,

Lochlyn:

What

Darien:

Go

Lochlyn:

if

Darien:

on

Lochlyn:

all she did was just download the Sims and then rebuild Olympus in that,

DJ:

Down lad, Sim City, and like with Like

Darien:

Solutely.

DJ:

Olympus

Lochlyn:

Yes,

DJ:

God expansion,

Darien:

Yeah,

Lochlyn:

yes,

Darien:

ah, no,

Lochlyn:

yes,

Darien:

no, okay, no joke. When we re did our living room down stairs and were going to buy brand new furniture, we did have one of my room mates who love Sims. Like design our living room with the windows were The doorway is everything in Sims, so we could look at and figure out where we wanted to put the couch. Where's the best place for the book shelves? Like what makes the? And then we did

Lochlyn:

Hm,

Darien:

that And

DJ:

M.

Darien:

it's great

Lochlyn:

yes,

DJ:

M.

Darien:

and it's been two years and it's still like that. So honestly

DJ:

That's funny.

Darien:

Yes, Absolutely,

Lochlyn:

I think that's

DJ:

Pretty

Lochlyn:

a great

DJ:

funny.

Lochlyn:

idea.

Darien:

you know, Anabethisblan

Lochlyn:

I'm definitely going to

Darien:

Sims.

Lochlyn:

use that in the future.

Darien:

I'm miraculous. awesome.

DJ:

M.

Darien:

Uh, yeah, let's let's talk about the. It's not Quinton. It's quintus with an s.

DJ:

I think

Lochlyn:

Oh,

DJ:

so. Yeah,

Darien:

Yes,

Lochlyn:

okay,

DJ:

because it's

Darien:

No,

DJ:

his fifth

Darien:

no, sorry,

DJ:

body.

Lochlyn:

I'm

Darien:

I

Lochlyn:

not.

Darien:

didn't mean. I didn't mean it. Like correct. I'm reading

Lochlyn:

I

Darien:

a web

Lochlyn:

do

Darien:

comic

Lochlyn:

have

Darien:

where a caracter's

Lochlyn:

the.

Darien:

name is Quinton. so yeah,

Lochlyn:

Oh, I do have the book on my shelf right here. I, you would like me to confirm.

Darien:

I've got it. I've got it. I

DJ:

I'm

Darien:

just

DJ:

pretty

Darien:

was

DJ:

sure.

Darien:

more like

DJ:

I'm pretty sure

Darien:

That

DJ:

it's

Darien:

was more

DJ:

quinces.

Darien:

me.

DJ:

because it's like it's his fifth body.

Darien:

Yeah, it was more me trying

Lochlyn:

M.

Darien:

to like not accidentally say the wrong quintus. Yes, with an S.

Lochlyn:

Okay,

DJ:

Yeah,

Lochlyn:

quintus.

Darien:

I'm reading

Lochlyn:

Okay,

Darien:

a web comic and the character's name is Quinton. And so my brain was like flipping,

Lochlyn:

Oh

Darien:

and I'm like hell, so yeah, so let's talk about Quinton. Quintus. Damn it

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

who, the first time Percy sees him thinks. Wow, I've never seen a grown up Demi God before and like, Can we just talk? I know we did a while

Lochlyn:

That

Darien:

ago, but I just now Revisit the whole the Greeks die.

Lochlyn:

That's such a concerning

DJ:

It's

Lochlyn:

statement

DJ:

wild.

Lochlyn:

for him to make

DJ:

Oh yeah.

Lochlyn:

Like,

Darien:

Hm. It's

Lochlyn:

Like,

Darien:

not

Lochlyn:

the life

Darien:

wrong,

Lochlyn:

expectancy is

Darien:

but

Lochlyn:

not great.

Darien:

No, no, and then later on we meet the Romans, who. there are old people all over New Rome, like it actually doesn't have to be this way for demi gods. And and yet it is at this camp for middle school to high school. Ers, it's just they are expected

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

to die and

DJ:

I think

Darien:

anyone who doesn't die doesn't There's no grown up coming back to be like counselors at camp Hath blood. That's what I would do.

DJ:

Yeah.

Darien:

That's why I was spending my summers

DJ:

I think

Darien:

helping

DJ:

I got

Darien:

these

DJ:

to say

Darien:

kids

DJ:

it's

Darien:

not

DJ:

super

Darien:

die.

DJ:

wild, just like the difference between Camp Half Blood and Camp Jupiter, Because it's

Darien:

Hm.

DJ:

like you might, or like even New Rome right. I think it would have been fun to have a similar thing going on with Camp Half Blood where there was New Athens, And so we just had like

Lochlyn:

M.

DJ:

a big fucking city. That's just a Greek city.

Darien:

I mean, I get why we don't in so far that it's like Know kids book. So the trope is like You're going to go to the magical place where there's only kids. So it's

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

a summer camp. There's only kids around it, And to raise the stakes being a demigod is dangerous. Well, how do you demonstrate that there's no grown ups anywhere Because you die as a kid and it's like

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

really, really, not a

DJ:

Weak

Darien:

single

DJ:

demi

Lochlyn:

Yeah,

Darien:

adult

DJ:

gods

Darien:

to

DJ:

get

Darien:

help

DJ:

called.

Darien:

well even And then the

Lochlyn:

I think

Darien:

powerful

Lochlyn:

it's

Darien:

ones also get marked.

DJ:

Yeah, pains

Lochlyn:

I think it's

DJ:

may

Lochlyn:

interesting

DJ:

go out

Lochlyn:

How,

DJ:

swinging

Lochlyn:

when you

DJ:

bud.

Lochlyn:

think it's interesting how when you read The Lightning Thief it's all like bright and shiny. everything so cool Nd cos, E, as

Darien:

Hm.

Lochlyn:

an adult I can go Bac and read and see all the dark undertones, but it just

Darien:

Yeah,

Lochlyn:

continues to get darker and darker and you realize like how bad, not even talking about the villains, but just the situation he's in with camp than all the other kids are in with camp. But like this inherently is just

Darien:

Yeah,

Lochlyn:

a very bad bad situation. Like

Darien:

Yeah,

Lochlyn:

seaweed

Darien:

like

Lochlyn:

brains

Darien:

what is

Lochlyn:

recently of like Iron, is a terrible camp leader.

Darien:

Okay? All right. I'm about to get us canceled from the podthepodcasting community. I actually don't think Caron is such a terrible teacher. I think he generally does his best with the resources he has been provided by the gods, which is not much. Hey, I bet maybe he'd be better if the guy who actually run the camp didn't actively despise all the children on a regular basis.

DJ:

Yeah, probably

Darien:

Maybe if hest, Rather than just hanging out by the camp fire, sometimes like actually wanted to help support what was going on. Um, maybe I think Kron does his best. I'm not saying his best is good enough, nor am I saying that we can forgive him for the outright nonsense that we have in fact seen, But the party ponies do show up and save the day at one point time, and that is that is on. Also Percy pulled Pecrustius out of his goddam ass, and L A because of Cyr Teaching him as M. burger. So

DJ:

You love you. love bringing that up every time.

Darien:

It's the most

Lochlyn:

It's

Darien:

wild

Lochlyn:

true.

Darien:

thing. It's the most wild thing. There's no reason person should remember that, but he doesn't know if Ena doesn't have kids. Speaking of Daedalus, a son of Athena, in this book, discuss,

DJ:

Yeah, I mean

Lochlyn:

Yeah,

DJ:

well,

Lochlyn:

well, I,

DJ:

I was about it makes sense, but if he's an inventor, like invention in DJ really is like two entirely different things. In my opinion,

Darien:

Hm,

DJ:

he should have just been a son of the Vulcan, or as us

Darien:

Hm,

DJ:

like, I also understand, like within the myth of Daedalus, he's he is an architecture. He's

Darien:

Hm,

DJ:

an architect. He built the labyrinth, And that's what everybody kind of knows him as. And he's like a very smart dude. I think If you wanted him to be a son of Athena, I don't think you should have had him be like this whole, like robot automaton building,

Darien:

M.

DJ:

fucking dude.

Darien:

Yeah,

DJ:

like I don't know. It's just strange

Darien:

Yeah,

DJ:

to me.

Darien:

lucky you had a thought.

Lochlyn:

Yeah. oh yes. So I googled right before this fun facts

Darien:

Uh

Lochlyn:

about

Darien:

huh

Lochlyn:

Daedalus, so I'm going to share one now with you.

Darien:

To

DJ:

Uh,

Darien:

do that. Oh fun facts about. I'm no steal that I love that so much.

Lochlyn:

Yes,

Darien:

Okay, please give us a fact.

Lochlyn:

this is what I do when I forget to do research in advance. Tfor any

Darien:

Okay.

Lochlyn:

podcast

Darien:

I

Lochlyn:

I

Darien:

did

Lochlyn:

go

Darien:

my research

Lochlyn:

on.

Darien:

this morning.

Lochlyn:

Yeah, I love that we're on the same page.

Darien:

I'm

Lochlyn:

Yes,

Darien:

so excited.

Lochlyn:

so

Darien:

it's

Lochlyn:

so

Darien:

been a chaotic

Lochlyn:

there

Darien:

week.

Lochlyn:

are. so there are conflicting ideas about whether he could be from Crete

Darien:

Hm,

Lochlyn:

or Athens, That their different versions of the myth have

Darien:

Hm,

Lochlyn:

different origins, So in the Athenian version

Darien:

Hm,

Lochlyn:

he's from Athens. he gets blessed by Athena, and his main things are

Darien:

Hm,

Lochlyn:

creative, ness, his crea Tivity, and his brilliant mind, And that's why he would then fall under Athena.

Darien:

Hm,

Lochlyn:

So they go. So then

Darien:

No, Yeah,

Lochlyn:

Rick will then be using that to say he's a child of Athena.

DJ:

Again, I would like. Well, Athena is creative. I would still pin creative more in hefestises territory.

Lochlyn:

No,

Darien:

I think

Lochlyn:

I definitely agree with that.

DJ:

Right,

Darien:

I think that's a great segu into us discussing like Daedaluss as as he appears in mythology, And that's like a great example of the big difference because Athena didn't have kids in ancient Greek story telling tradition.

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

That's whole cloth, something that Rick Rord invented. I actually do love that. Have we talked about that? I actually really genuinely

DJ:

It's

Darien:

think

DJ:

fun.

Darien:

that's a cool concept

DJ:

It's

Darien:

of

DJ:

very

Darien:

Athena

DJ:

interesting

Darien:

has

DJ:

with. like

Darien:

children. this concept of thought and creation. She doesn't have to physically

DJ:

M.

Darien:

have

DJ:

Hm.

Darien:

intercourse and then give birth to a child. She can abstractly create one with this meeting of the mind, Sing with a mortal she is compatible with

DJ:

It's

Darien:

and I

DJ:

great

Darien:

do

DJ:

now,

Darien:

think

DJ:

but

Darien:

that's

DJ:

then you

Darien:

cool

DJ:

like are just sidling a mortal with a kid they never even agreed to, in any way shape

Darien:

Right

DJ:

or form

Darien:

right

DJ:

right

Darien:

right we?

Lochlyn:

Yeah,

Darien:

We do need to talk about.

DJ:

like

Darien:

It's not the kid's fault.

Lochlyn:

Yeah,

DJ:

it's

Darien:

but like

DJ:

not. No, it's not the kid's fault. It's but it's like

Darien:

Athena

DJ:

absolutely

Darien:

should be

DJ:

they.

Darien:

using protection is what I think on this one.

DJ:

It's

Lochlyn:

Or

DJ:

like

Lochlyn:

at least discussing

DJ:

these people had

Lochlyn:

beforehand.

DJ:

a great converse.

Lochlyn:

Are you cool with

DJ:

Had

Lochlyn:

the kid?

DJ:

a. Are

Darien:

Yeah,

DJ:

you

Darien:

do you

DJ:

cool

Darien:

want

DJ:

with

Darien:

a kid?

DJ:

a kid? It's going to be yours. We're not going

Darien:

You

DJ:

to have

Darien:

have

DJ:

sex.

Darien:

to take care

DJ:

You're

Darien:

of

DJ:

not

Darien:

Yeh

DJ:

going to get that. That's That's an action that's

Lochlyn:

Hm,

DJ:

not going to happen. But we will

Darien:

And

Lochlyn:

Ah,

DJ:

Have

Darien:

someone

DJ:

a kid.

Darien:

being like. So I being like, I'm a. I'm a grad student. I'm actually not in a place where I can like responsibly or like emotionally care for a kid

DJ:

Well

Darien:

right

DJ:

here's

Darien:

now,

DJ:

a kid

Darien:

So

DJ:

anyway.

Darien:

so

DJ:

we

Darien:

no,

DJ:

had a killer

Darien:

um,

DJ:

conversation. Sorry about it, bud, Bud.

Lochlyn:

Uh.

Darien:

she's a gift and it's like Okay now. That's That's another thing that I

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

feel like doesn't get discussed. and it just we get to label parents as bad because you didn't want your child. What kind of monster are you?

DJ:

But he literally did not want

Darien:

Yeah,

DJ:

and that's

Darien:

Also

DJ:

like,

Darien:

neither, neither did Athena, who just gets to kick kids out. So

DJ:

And it's like

Darien:

whatever,

DJ:

here's the thing right. You got to know that all of Athena's like partners are absolutely mind fucked when they're like. There's no way this is my kid. They go get a D and a test and it is

Darien:

Yeah,

DJ:

right.

Darien:

Yeah, there's

DJ:

It's like

Darien:

also that thing because

DJ:

What

Darien:

obviously

DJ:

the

Darien:

she

DJ:

fuck?

Darien:

is like smart

Lochlyn:

Oh,

Darien:

scientific

Lochlyn:

that's amazing.

Darien:

people like like when they find out I, also, that's goin like, really messed up. some like of Athena's like the mortal parents of Athene of Athena, children who all of a sudden like definitely were probably highly like, inollectual, very like, scientifically minded. And then they're just faced with the fact that by the way the great

DJ:

By

Darien:

gods

DJ:

the way,

Darien:

are

DJ:

Gods

Darien:

real,

DJ:

are real.

Darien:

This like

Lochlyn:

Yeah,

Darien:

concept of the supernatural absolute Exist and then

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

some people are just going to get their brain broken from that,

DJ:

Yeah,

Lochlyn:

Yeah, some people's minds are definitely broken from that.

Darien:

And then we, and then this kid gets into Kron to deal with that. Like what's he supposed to do? The guys are not setting him up to succeed. I think it's not Karen's fault. One hundred percent. it's his fault. I will say seventy five percent.

Lochlyn:

Is

Darien:

So

Lochlyn:

there a secret nursery somewhere at camp where all the Athena kids at the that, the parents, because we're non gender, whatever that the parents

Darien:

Yep, yep,

Lochlyn:

couldn't mentally take care of, and they just get dropped

Darien:

No

Lochlyn:

off like Okay, Cyran. You can let them show up when there were twelve and act like we weren't just hiding other small

DJ:

I

Lochlyn:

children

DJ:

think

Lochlyn:

here the

DJ:

if

Lochlyn:

whole time.

DJ:

if if

Darien:

Kit.

DJ:

that was

Darien:

they just

DJ:

the,

Darien:

die, probably

DJ:

that's

Darien:

right

DJ:

I think if

Darien:

like

Lochlyn:

No,

DJ:

that's the case, I think a couple of things happen with the baby once they were given to the mortal parent. The mortal parent takes this child and is like, either Okay, I'll raise it or takes

Darien:

Hm,

DJ:

it to like an

Darien:

For

DJ:

adoption

Darien:

they get in the

DJ:

center.

Darien:

foster system, they foster

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

system

DJ:

then the

Darien:

and

DJ:

poster

Lochlyn:

Hm,

Darien:

then the

DJ:

system,

Darien:

monster eats the kid.

DJ:

And so

Lochlyn:

Yeah,

DJ:

then it's like I don't think they're making it to camp unless they're getting found right. Because unless Athena handed, like, if you don't want this child, take it to this place, and a lot of the times they're like I'm in Nevada. I cannot be and I cannot be taking a week off to go to New York to drop off this kid

Darien:

Hm,

DJ:

at a magic camp like,

Darien:

You can't can't be taking time

Lochlyn:

Hm,

Darien:

off to not have to be saddled with a child you didn't want because you're in far away state from a location that would allow this interesting.

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

interesting. Interesting. Yes, so now, and also, we only just now have caters. Actually, I don't know. we have poor little Anna, Beth, who was seven years old that a cater didn't show up to help her when she ran away, But Athena led her to these other two kids, Who also, the only reason the tater showed up is because It was a daughter of zoos like no one gave a damn about these other two.

DJ:

Yeah, because

Lochlyn:

Hm.

DJ:

I mean they're

Darien:

So

DJ:

the children of generally weaker gods. There's sense

Darien:

On

DJ:

going

Darien:

is

DJ:

to be like overrun by something else. right.

Darien:

I believe genuinely cares about these kids and wants to see them do well, and he is trapped in a system that is offering no support or resources to do so successfully

Lochlyn:

I can appreciate

Darien:

Anyway.

DJ:

I

Lochlyn:

that.

DJ:

think the

Lochlyn:

Take

DJ:

Norse had it right. The gods

Darien:

Thank

DJ:

come

Darien:

you so

DJ:

down

Darien:

much.

DJ:

the north.

Darien:

I was

DJ:

Had

Darien:

so scared

DJ:

gods

Darien:

to

DJ:

come

Darien:

share

DJ:

down?

Darien:

it

DJ:

Hey, here, here's a fucking weapon. Make sure it's on you when you die. That's

Lochlyn:

Ye

DJ:

just that's just the Norse gods.

Darien:

In Earlier before we started recording. You said you didn't have gotten to read the Manus Chase with so sorry, big old spoilers. I'll keep

Lochlyn:

All

Darien:

a little

Lochlyn:

good.

Darien:

vague. You have one character whose mom literally showed up in person to make sure she had weapons. So when she died she get to go to Hotel Valhalla

DJ:

Yeah, we

Darien:

Like

DJ:

have that and then

Darien:

Wow,

DJ:

we have

Darien:

You want

DJ:

Thomas

Darien:

to talk about pro

DJ:

Jefferson

Darien:

active moms?

DJ:

Junior showing up with sucking like ter, coming down like here's a dragon bone. Like what the fuck bayonet? Here you go, and then like when he dies, he just has a dragon bone or a fucking straight up gun with a dragon bone bayonet on. And that's his weapon.

Darien:

I forgot.

DJ:

and Ter handed

Darien:

That's right

DJ:

it

Darien:

as well,

DJ:

to him.

Darien:

Enjoy that kid, rat as hell. I think. Yeah, Norse parents are way more pro active. At least they are equipping their kids with the resources they need to survive in the world that they didn't ask to be born into. That's

DJ:

Thor's

Darien:

my hot. Say

DJ:

got tattoo of the name of children that he doesn't even know if they're alive yet.

Darien:

Okay anyway,

DJ:

Sorry,

Darien:

Pantheon, um, I think you have a really good point about how if we're going to have a E're having Daedalus being a demigod of Hephaestus does perhaps make more sense for the physic creation of what he does, but considering as Lochlyn mentioned uh, him being from Athens was very much a late addition to the Daedalus lore

DJ:

M.

Darien:

He was like this concept that this great inventor from from Crete, exist, And then later writers were like, Here are his parents, and you get a bunch of different parents of like varying levels of cultural importance depending on the source, And then after that Athens was like, No, No, No, actually, he is ours. He is from Athens. He is the grandson of one of our great kings, and the only reason he was even in Crete is cause he tried to murder his nephew and then had to skip down, But he's totally ours and we

Lochlyn:

Oh

Darien:

want to claim him so that like

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

activeness of like Ah, And this like City of Athena, wanting to claim him, I recognize why Rick Ryan would like gravitate to that and like, and with his whole, she doesn't have to have Tsex to have kids, So Dalis could be one of her kids Like that makes a lot of sense because otherwise he's just immortal, and in Rick ridin books you can't be cool if you're immortal. That's

Lochlyn:

Yeah,

Darien:

just

DJ:

Not yet.

Darien:

that's just rule,

DJ:

not yet. At least

Darien:

Rachel, And she was like the exception.

Lochlyn:

But then

Darien:

But then

Lochlyn:

she has to do you spoil for the Percy Jackson books. I guess

Darien:

Yes, we talk about everything. Yes,

Lochlyn:

okay,

Darien:

no, no,

Lochlyn:

okay,

Darien:

we'll talk

Lochlyn:

yes,

Darien:

about anything.

Lochlyn:

yes,

Darien:

That's irrelevant. We

Lochlyn:

but then

Darien:

talked

Lochlyn:

she

Darien:

about

Lochlyn:

becomes

Darien:

Travels

Lochlyn:

the

Darien:

of Apollo

Lochlyn:

oracle,

Darien:

last couple episodes ago.

Lochlyn:

Okay, perfect,

Darien:

Yes,

Lochlyn:

perfect, Yes,

Darien:

and that is,

Lochlyn:

but then

Darien:

and

Lochlyn:

she

Darien:

that

Lochlyn:

becomes

Darien:

is very cool.

Lochlyn:

the oracle, so she can't just be immortal. You know,

Darien:

No,

Lochlyn:

she

Darien:

No,

Lochlyn:

then has

Darien:

she

Lochlyn:

to become

Darien:

is

Lochlyn:

something else.

Darien:

elevated. Yeah, she already has

Lochlyn:

Yes,

Darien:

the abilities,

DJ:

She's still immortal. When she's the oracle, The oracles

Darien:

But she's

DJ:

still immortal.

Darien:

okay. We. we

Lochlyn:

But

Darien:

all

Lochlyn:

she

Darien:

have

Lochlyn:

has this

Darien:

to.

Lochlyn:

other,

DJ:

She has. She has

Darien:

No.

DJ:

other

Darien:

Yeah,

DJ:

power. Sure, but it's still. she's immortal. She will die and she

Darien:

Pause.

DJ:

will be an entirely different situation to

Darien:

yes, but I actually, I think I'm on Lockland's side. I think being she's essentially, she's not a child of Apollo,

DJ:

Sally

Darien:

but almost

DJ:

Jackson is immortal.

Darien:

yeah, and she's

DJ:

Paul

Darien:

great,

Lochlyn:

But

DJ:

Blow

Lochlyn:

she's

DJ:

Fish

Darien:

but she,

Lochlyn:

also

DJ:

is immortal,

Lochlyn:

a queen

Darien:

but she

Lochlyn:

among

Darien:

does.

Lochlyn:

mortals.

Darien:

She's a queen among mortals,

DJ:

But she's

Darien:

but

DJ:

still

Darien:

they don't

DJ:

immortal.

Darien:

get, but they don't get to say yeah, but they don't get to save the world. They don't get to go into camp half blood. They don't get to be cool. Part of the story, they get to be cool support of parents, which is pretty Raculous. All things considered, but Lucan, I think I age ith. You're coming where you're coming

Lochlyn:

Thank

Darien:

from

Lochlyn:

you.

Darien:

with Th. Rachel.

Lochlyn:

Rachel does

Darien:

She shifts

Lochlyn:

get a cave.

Darien:

when she becomes the

Lochlyn:

What?

Darien:

oracle.

Lochlyn:

Yes, Yes,

Darien:

Hm,

Lochlyn:

What other regular

DJ:

It's a bad

Lochlyn:

mortal

DJ:

as cave.

Lochlyn:

gets cave within camp, half blood,

Darien:

This is true.

Lochlyn:

The cave

Darien:

Only Rachel.

Lochlyn:

cave life.

Darien:

And and then I think DJ. we'll have to do another oracle episode where we really interrogate this concept as it's introduced later on in the series Because I think there are some early episodes that we can revisit and really expand upon, But we'll do that

DJ:

The

Darien:

later

DJ:

oracles

Darien:

for now.

DJ:

of Parasite,

Darien:

I can't believe you. remember that you said that

DJ:

Because I believe it.

Darien:

We will revisit that more in depth at a future time. But for now, Ah, do we want to talk about some of the stuff that Daedalus invented

DJ:

Lay it on me

Darien:

and

Lochlyn:

Oh yeah,

Darien:

obviously actually luck may be good. Do you have another datalis Fun fact we can throw in,

Lochlyn:

I do. I'm

Darien:

please.

Lochlyn:

so glad you asked. So

Darien:

God, thank you.

Lochlyn:

this

Darien:

Yes,

Lochlyn:

one excited me quite a bit. He invented the dance floor for Ariadne,

Darien:

My God. Yes, that's on my list.

Lochlyn:

Hm,

Darien:

It perplexed

Lochlyn:

yes,

Darien:

me, perplexed me so much At this sentence I

Lochlyn:

Yah,

Darien:

spent twenty minutes trying to figure out what does this mean? O.

Lochlyn:

Yeah,

Darien:

So here's what I learned. So it is. So this stems from the Iliad

Lochlyn:

Hm,

Darien:

which so Dalis is mentioned in. So Ariadne is like name dropped in the Iliad Uh, later, it's like towards, it's honestly, towards the end. Here's the. I've got my Copy here. Here's the book mark of what I will be reading real quick.

DJ:

On

Darien:

You see

DJ:

John

Darien:

where it's

DJ:

surf

Darien:

at?

DJ:

shop sticker.

Darien:

Oh, it's my

Lochlyn:

Yeah,

Darien:

Ronjonserfsup sticker from

DJ:

One of a

Darien:

Orlando.

DJ:

kind,

Darien:

Really fun.

Lochlyn:

Classic,

Darien:

go place, classic Great shift shop. So basically a. Towards the end we talked about a little while ago. Theseus comes to Hefestus and asked him to create armor for Achilles, which he does And this includes a shield, and on the shield, let me Ah, and the smith brought old on. I'm reading the Iliad It is the translation by Robert Fags, and then shout out to good friend Meg, who helped me find a translation that we could use that resonates with the kind of thing we do on the podcast So big, Shout out all right, and he and the Smith brought all his art to bear on a dancing circle, brought as a circle Daedalus once laid out on Canos, spacious fields for Ariadne, the girl with luscious hair hair, young boys and girls, beauties corded with costs, Gifts of oxen, danced and danced, linking their arms gripping each other's wrists, And it goes on to explain more of the dancing and stuff. But so what's dancing? What's the deal? So I was reading it. Some theories are like. Oh, well, that was just how Homer understood the symbols of the labyrinth from from that like older era of. Like my knowin culture, we talked

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

about this this stuff like way, pre dates Like the era these stories were supposedly taking place in like Greek cultural tradition.

DJ:

M.

Darien:

Um, So that could be one thing. Maybe it's just the symbols of the labyrinth were interpreted as like this dancing circle and this was made up with. but there was a lot. There was quite a bit of archeological evidence to support the theory that actually my noons were really in to dance. like, specifically, little figurines of like actually showing circle dancing have been found in Tombs and such, and there are like platforms that have, like these are like, dating back to the early Bronze era, and like platforms that have been found that have been theorized to be part of like these dancing rituals. So the minoons are big on dancing. That means Daedalus. as Loco said, basically invented the dance floor so Ariadne could get down with her bad self.

Lochlyn:

Yeah,

DJ:

Nice,

Lochlyn:

so on top of that I read

Darien:

Hm,

Lochlyn:

that so she had this area where she would go to to dance, and then he and laid white

Darien:

Hm,

Lochlyn:

marble and this mosaic pattern to sort of create sort of a

Darien:

Hm.

Lochlyn:

guidance for the dancers. But then you could also then sort of build off of that and do your own thing as well and continue to progress the dance.

Darien:

That's very cool. Yeah, so yeah, I saw like, Oh yeah, Labyrinth, we know that we've discussed it. Waxen wings. We talked about. That one obviously is a big one. the most realistic cow, first suit for purse, not persephany, God for Passife,

Lochlyn:

Oh

Darien:

we know these things. The dance Flo was what threw me and I was delighted and I'm so glad you brought that to the table. Thank

Lochlyn:

Yes,

DJ:

M,

Darien:

you.

DJ:

Hm.

Lochlyn:

I was so happy to read that I thought that was very, very neat.

Darien:

Yeah. in addition, he is also credited with inventing the art of carpentry, credited by Plenty the Elder, in his book, in his work Natural History, they said You know, even in art carpentry, including like all of the tools, so like a saw and an axe and wood glue. Things like that,

Lochlyn:

So

Darien:

We also talked

Lochlyn:

I have.

Darien:

about. No. go on. Look, Yeah,

Lochlyn:

I have a question about this. If he invented carpentry? What were people doing before?

DJ:

Chiseling it out of stone. What else

Darien:

I guess everything yet chisldasone. They were just leaning

DJ:

They were? They were. In

Darien:

flanks

DJ:

fact,

Darien:

together

DJ:

they went from stone work and they just jumped straight to blacksmithing, And so they had to work their way back to carpentry.

Lochlyn:

Ah?

Darien:

And just still in that

Lochlyn:

there

Darien:

middle

Lochlyn:

you go.

Darien:

space. Yep.

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

Yep. Oh, we talked about in when we had our episode about King Minos, on which I just went on a fan tangent so I could talk about my known culture. How the Mynns had a vast navy. Like in King Minos, was considered the first man to have a navy, and so part of the Daedalus law is that he actually invented masts and sales, So King Minos could have this navy and built it all up.

DJ:

So he, Dedalus really is just the guy.

Darien:

He's just

Lochlyn:

Yeah,

Darien:

the guy and it's not just that he could make invent things and make like practical tools and stuff. He was also an artist who is said to be able to carve wooden sculptures so beautifully that they looked like they were moving like truly lifelike

DJ:

Now This had started to make me think that Dedalus was actually just the name of a group of people right,

Lochlyn:

Uh,

DJ:

Like a sucking. I don't know. just an artist union of people like Okay, Well, because like I understand, man, it's one guy. But if we're basing it off like actual reality ship, one guy like cannot do fucking everything right.

Darien:

Did. I'm so glad you said that

Lochlyn:

Yes, I have. I have. Are you going somewhere with Edward?

Darien:

Well, but O'locklan If you, if

Lochlyn:

Okay?

Darien:

you have another

Lochlyn:

Okay,

Darien:

fun fact

Lochlyn:

okay,

Darien:

for us like I would,

Lochlyn:

yes,

Darien:

I feel, and I feel like maybe we are

Lochlyn:

okay,

Darien:

on the same thing,

Lochlyn:

I'm

Darien:

so

Lochlyn:

very

Darien:

please

Lochlyn:

curiously

Darien:

please

Lochlyn:

for doing the same

Darien:

guess,

Lochlyn:

thing.

Darien:

go on.

Lochlyn:

Okay,

DJ:

Is there

Lochlyn:

So

DJ:

evidence

Darien:

I think

DJ:

that

Darien:

so.

DJ:

it's a fucking artist union?

Darien:

just

Lochlyn:

So

Darien:

let Lochlyn

Lochlyn:

so

Darien:

go.

Lochlyn:

so I see what you're saying, I hear, I respect that I raise you, Leonardo de Vent, and how

Darien:

M.

Lochlyn:

varied he was and what he did between art and science and was just all over the board with what he did in a similar

DJ:

I would

Lochlyn:

way to

DJ:

say

Lochlyn:

how Dalis is presented of being all across the board as well,

Darien:

This is

DJ:

I

Darien:

a

DJ:

would

Darien:

good point.

DJ:

say yes, but a lot of what like De Vinci did was never implemented in like a real life. Like a lot of, like other Devins creations that we see, like the famous ones right. They're not like stuff that was practical, just very theoretical.

Darien:

A lot of concept are.

DJ:

A lot

Darien:

Yeah,

DJ:

of concept

Darien:

lot of a

DJ:

art

Darien:

lot

DJ:

is

Darien:

of

DJ:

what

Darien:

cool

DJ:

De Vinci

Darien:

concept

DJ:

really

Darien:

art.

DJ:

did.

Lochlyn:

Hm,

DJ:

He was. He really was. Uh. Well, the DJ versus the engineer, right,

Darien:

Hm.

DJ:

Um, and that's what Vinci was? I wouldn't doubt that like we could have Dedalus be the De Vinci type, where he is the DJ of a lot of things, but he probably also had people helping him implement it right. There's like Well, maybe we could make masses, but I don't know who's to say, like if this is going to work and then we had another guy that's

Darien:

Hm.

DJ:

no longer gets named who actually built the fucking thing.

Darien:

I think

Lochlyn:

Yeah,

Darien:

no. I think you both make good points. It is uncommon for someone to be so

DJ:

I also just

Darien:

diverse.

DJ:

think like the time right.

Darien:

Yeah,

DJ:

It's a little

Darien:

but

DJ:

hard.

Darien:

not.

DJ:

It's

Darien:

yeah.

DJ:

harder to be that varied with as

Darien:

Yeah,

DJ:

little tools as Dedalus had.

Darien:

yeah, I think I think I do think that like Leonardo eventually is an excellent, excellent example.

DJ:

Oh

Darien:

I mean,

DJ:

one

Darien:

we're

DJ:

hundred

Darien:

also

DJ:

percent,

Darien:

like at a Loveless, who designed computer programs essentially before we had computers like there. Those there are remarkable

DJ:

M.

Darien:

people who can come up with incredible

DJ:

Oh, yeah,

Darien:

things that

DJ:

don't

Darien:

we

DJ:

get

Darien:

can't

DJ:

me wrong.

Darien:

put to

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

use practically yet. But DJ. in

Lochlyn:

Hm,

Darien:

your comment that like maybe Daedalus was just a bunch of craftsmen. Uh, I think that there Are theories that maybe suggest that at least the the idea of datalis may be becomes from a collective. Almost

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

so. so the name Daedalus translates to like skillful, which is interesting because usually these names don't have such clear cut, like what we know it means, and so oftentimes

DJ:

M,

Darien:

like in angengroups, like craft men, crafts folks would have like that would be a name that a lot of, like Greek, inventors and creators would would use as like, like a title or a name they would take on for themselves because they had incredible skill, and there is a festival called the Adalia, in which like a wooden altar was built, and and it would carry a woman who acts like a bride's maid, And this was like a festival to Todatalis, But there are some some theories and some evidence that suggests that this festival this thing may be, actually pre dates the de figure Daedalus, who was first referenced in like the Linear B tablets

DJ:

Hm,

Darien:

on like the fourteen hundred B C. That he. actually, they began calling this figure Daedalus after these traditions and they are not the other way around. So in conclusion, no lockin. you and I actually turned out we were not on the same path at all, but

DJ:

M,

Darien:

I

Lochlyn:

No,

Darien:

still had

DJ:

hm,

Darien:

fun.

Lochlyn:

no, but I think

Darien:

I thought

DJ:

Yeah,

Lochlyn:

we

Darien:

it was

Lochlyn:

both

Darien:

fun.

Lochlyn:

brought very interesting things to the table.

DJ:

Yes,

Darien:

Good for thought. Yeah, so it could be, But yeah, I think on the thing of the statue, like at least DJ. there was a second century Greek like traveler and geographer named Pasanius who traveled around. Obviously, that was his whole deal, and he credited a lot of like archaic wooden figures as being like Yepdatalst. made that Daedalus made that too. Daedalus made that too. So the haunch like Hey, This maybe was a bunch of people Who get that probably wasn't incorrect. That maybe when you get to the spectrum of time so far out

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

that these things are so old, you start to have folks like Hdatalus must have built that he was the amazing event, or from the ancient era.

DJ:

And he's like I get a Greek mythos, Just like explaining things in the world, but

Darien:

M.

DJ:

man, come on,

Lochlyn:

Oh,

Darien:

At least some of these things

DJ:

At

Darien:

had

DJ:

least

Darien:

to be signed

DJ:

at least a

Darien:

right.

DJ:

very like one guy, but not even like he. Festus. did it like if it was like he, festus was inventing and just tossing it down to the humans.

Darien:

Hm,

DJ:

That's fine. He's a god, but it's like here's

Darien:

Yeah,

DJ:

a mortal man doing fucking everythingg.

Darien:

And that's why the

Lochlyn:

There

Darien:

Athenians

Lochlyn:

are only

Darien:

had

Lochlyn:

so

Darien:

to claim

Lochlyn:

many years.

Darien:

him There.

Lochlyn:

there are

Darien:

S

Lochlyn:

only

Darien:

so

Lochlyn:

so

Darien:

many

Lochlyn:

many

Darien:

years

Lochlyn:

years in mortal life.

Darien:

as so much time.

Lochlyn:

Only so much time.

Darien:

My phone locked. I lost my notes. So

Lochlyn:

Did he invent the phone too?

Darien:

Maybe probably in

Lochlyn:

Yeah,

Darien:

Percy Jackson. I bet

DJ:

Vented

Darien:

he did.

DJ:

the laptop.

Darien:

I bet he did.

Lochlyn:

Alexandra Graham Bell was actually day to listen disguise fun. fact,

Darien:

Yeah, he had all these robots that apparently just building and inhabiting, And do you think that's another good point on the Thefstust train, the whole automaton element, which

Lochlyn:

Yes,

Darien:

I guess he's not really a ton on, but he's kind.

DJ:

He made an automaton and put his soul into it.

Darien:

Yeah,

DJ:

That's what

Lochlyn:

No

Darien:

that

DJ:

he

Lochlyn:

one

DJ:

did.

Lochlyn:

tells

Darien:

feels

DJ:

He

Lochlyn:

the

Darien:

very

Lochlyn:

millionaires

DJ:

made

Darien:

hopes.

DJ:

the automaton

Lochlyn:

about this

DJ:

and then

Darien:

No one

DJ:

put

Darien:

tell

DJ:

his

Darien:

the millionaires

DJ:

soul into

Darien:

about

DJ:

it.

Darien:

this. Yeah, that does feel very Hephesteus to me. Yeah,

Darien:

so I think we got to talk about the nephew murder.

Lochlyn:

M.

Darien:

It's kind

DJ:

Killed his

Darien:

of

DJ:

nephew,

Darien:

a big

Lochlyn:

dark

Darien:

thing.

Lochlyn:

stuff.

Darien:

Yeah,

DJ:

Was

Darien:

yeah,

DJ:

just just

Darien:

this

DJ:

killed

Darien:

is

DJ:

his nephew. Jealous envy.

Darien:

jealous.

DJ:

It'll do that to you.

Darien:

Yea, this is something we see in in the Percy Jackson books. I feel like it's implied that it takes place after he escapes from from King Minos in the Labyrinth,

Lochlyn:

Hm,

DJ:

M.

Darien:

Because it's shown after we see Icarus dying,

DJ:

Yeah,

Lochlyn:

Yes,

Darien:

But I mean, obviously time line is wank. Depends on the order, ere going to tell these stories, But if the were going for the account that the the Athenians really put forward when they want to be like, No, No, he came from our town. This took place before he went to Crete is the reason he went to creep.

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

So Daedalus big thing was like, Yes, he's this incredible inventor and also just really couldn't stand the idea that anyone could be half as good as he was.

DJ:

What a jackass,

Darien:

Yeah,

Lochlyn:

Yeah,

Darien:

and apparently this was a trait that his sister didn't know or understand the depth of, Because she decides to send her son his nephew in his care like, Hey, go spend the summer with your uncle. He will tutor you. You're a smart kid. Your uncle's a genius. He will help you, you grow and develop in your intellectual pursuits, And that didn't go super great for the kid critics who invented the After he found a fish spine washed up on the shore and then turned around and also invented the compass. It's a great afternoon for him and then so Daedalus gets mad jealous and throws him off the Acropolis in Athens.

Lochlyn:

Big yokes

Darien:

Just

Lochlyn:

on that

DJ:

Idiculous,

Lochlyn:

one.

Darien:

just throws him off. Fortunately, Athena shows up and saves the kid by you know, creating, sending a bunch of birds to catch him and drop Leam safely and some stories it's It's a cloud catches him, cradles to No, I'm kidding. She turns him into a bird, a partridge, And that's the poetry. And and that's the cool way gods like to save humans. They'll just turn him into an animal.

DJ:

And that's how the animal was created and then they reproduced

Darien:

Hm,

DJ:

like fucking wild.

Darien:

So I don't know word on what the sister felt about the whole My my son is a partridge thing, But

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

Daedalus does in fact, get tried for murder, found guilty, and does have to skip town. That's how he ends up in a Cree working for Minos, building fancy fur suits for Queens, and then elaborate laborinthhing prisons for

DJ:

Hm,

Darien:

for monsters.

Lochlyn:

There's something about Daedalu’s personality of how he needs to be the only one, And how dare anyone else try to match his ability. That almost makes

Darien:

Hm.

Lochlyn:

me think of Elon Musk with how he, when he

Darien:

M.

Lochlyn:

took over Tesla, he made the original founders sign contracts that they could never claim that they were actually the founders, Like he just took over that position. and like you can't have anyone say that are as good as be like I did all these things. I did it Thing possible.

Darien:

Yeah,

Lochlyn:

Don't er.

Darien:

I

Lochlyn:

any thoughts

Darien:

do

Lochlyn:

about?

Darien:

think that that is a. That is an interesting. probably like. there's a reason that Daedalus is. This figure has this

DJ:

M.

Darien:

character flaw because I think actly right. It is a character flaw we often see in these folks who are incredibly like, skilled or capable or stuff. I think we also see this in like various athletes, oftentimes who are animate. that no one could be half as great as they are at any time, no matter what happens, And it is troubling. I think that humans have this capability where we feel threatened by greatness that we don't own, rather than often if we are inspired or excited at the prospect that someone can build off of what we've done and do more,

DJ:

Yeah,

Lochlyn:

Yeah, I think it's especially problematic when you have those feelings to the point of preventing others from doing things that could help society or then physically attack

Darien:

M

Lochlyn:

them, like, in this case,

Darien:

or yeah,

DJ:

I,

Darien:

throwing them off the acropolis in

Lochlyn:

Yeah,

Darien:

Athens. Yes, I think that's I

DJ:

Dude

Darien:

think.

Lochlyn:

yeah,

DJ:

made,

Darien:

the.

DJ:

dude made the

Lochlyn:

I think

DJ:

compass

Lochlyn:

it's

DJ:

the absolute most

Lochlyn:

I think

DJ:

integral

Lochlyn:

it's slightly

DJ:

thing

Lochlyn:

problematic.

DJ:

to fucking travel. just mildly,

Darien:

I think jealousy that turns into murder based on is very problematic. Yes,

Lochlyn:

Yeah.

Darien:

I will

Lochlyn:

yeah,

Darien:

sign off on that as well. It's it's bizarre. Hold

Lochlyn:

Indeed,

Darien:

on and I lost something about Dales, And do you ud you got anything

DJ:

Um,

Darien:

Line? I think I feel like the interesting about this is that we've talked so much about like elements of Daedalus story in previous episodes that it feels

DJ:

M.

Darien:

like we're leaving a lot out right now, But like why Rehashed the labyrinth? We've done Theseus, the Minitar and the Labyrinth episodes

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

like we could talk about the shell and stuff, But I'm pretty sure we talked about the in our Ariadne episode like there is very interesting things that we have discussed already, So that's the interesting Obstacle I think in doing our show is that I don't want to repeat ourselves so much and I don't have anything new to add on those from the perspective of of Daedalus.

DJ:

M. Yeah,

Lochlyn:

I could

DJ:

there's

Lochlyn:

talk

DJ:

not a

Lochlyn:

about how

DJ:

now. you go ahead.

Lochlyn:

I could talk about how he's portrayed in Cercy by Madeline Miller, also

Darien:

My gosh, we

Lochlyn:

famed

Darien:

please.

Lochlyn:

author

Darien:

Yeah,

Lochlyn:

of Song of Achilles,

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

let's swing right into examples in pop culture. Let's just

Lochlyn:

Yeah,

Darien:

go. I love it. Thank you so much we have not gotten to talk about yet because I still haven't

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

read it.

Lochlyn:

Oh, my

Darien:

so

Lochlyn:

goodness.

Darien:

please.

Lochlyn:

Well, then

Darien:

what's he

Lochlyn:

minor,

Darien:

like in Ursy?

Lochlyn:

so minor spoilers than I suppose for you for this

Darien:

Yes,

Lochlyn:

book.

Darien:

that's

Lochlyn:

So

Darien:

that's fine. I've had my chance.

Lochlyn:

yes, yes, So what I remember from reading this book Out of all of the men that Cercy comes in contact with throughout the novel, he is the only semi good guy keeping mine. He did kill his nephew, but she's

Darien:

Hm,

Lochlyn:

seems to have the best relationship with him. It is a very intellectual relationship like they seem to really respect each other, whereas,

Darien:

Uh,

Lochlyn:

like Odysseus,

Darien:

huh,

Lochlyn:

and all the other men don't value her or really respect all the power that she really has, so I thought that was

Darien:

Yeah,

Lochlyn:

an interesting way to go with him as a

Darien:

Yeah,

Lochlyn:

character. In that sense, yeah,

Darien:

Is it in writing? Is it like Because she has this power she has got, like the magic, like the sorceress,

Lochlyn:

Hm,

Darien:

and stuff, Is that what he's recognizing as? And she? I know, because I've read early in the book she talks about. Like before

Lochlyn:

Hm,

Darien:

me there was an award for what I was. So Is that the

Lochlyn:

Hm,

Darien:

element that I Daedalus seeing is like her as a ground breaker in her own field.

Lochlyn:

Yeah, and then a lot of also she deals with. I guess, like what you might see is like modern interpretations of witchcraft and the ways

Darien:

Hm,

Lochlyn:

that she is able to protect herself alone on this island, because like yes, she just put there by the gods and it's her prison, but also like men can come to the island and do the things that then happened in those situations, so she's having to figure out all

Darien:

Hm,

Lochlyn:

the dfferent ways to protect herself And then that uses some spells. In a sense, I don't think that's the right word For it, but sort of

Darien:

Hm,

Lochlyn:

along those lines like like he can recognize that power in her, but then also respect like who she is as a person as well.

Darien:

Yeah, that's really cool. I definitely couldn't find a lot of examples of Daedalus specifically showing up in like modern modern talents, which is a problem we're coming across more and more. I'm finding

Lochlyn:

Are you getting too nice?

DJ:

M.

Darien:

Little bit. I

DJ:

M.

Darien:

think that is the problems. Ariadne. We got a lot of modern story tellers putting Ariadne in their their comic books. Yeah, not wrong on that, so I thought we could expand it Unless Jdadtolisten video games. Anything

DJ:

Well, let me see if there's interview.

Lochlyn:

Yeah,

Darien:

I remember Like If you know of one

DJ:

I know there's one right here off the top. It's from it. Just simply references it by

Darien:

Okay,

DJ:

name alone. It's called the Daedalus Storm Bow, from the game Teraria, And what

Darien:

Okay,

DJ:

it used? what it used to do. They've definitely. they've changed it now. At the very least, they've nerved it into the ground.

Darien:

Uh,

DJ:

Um,

Darien:

huh,

DJ:

you would bows. Typically you shoot an arrow comes from the bow, the data storm, but would make it rain arrows right on your mouth

Darien:

Uh,

DJ:

anyway,

Darien:

huh,

DJ:

Like five to ten arrows for one arrow,

Darien:

Uh, huh,

DJ:

And it was kind of rude. They've now nerved it down.

Darien:

Rude.

Lochlyn:

Yeah,

DJ:

It was. it was dirty. You could go from like the start of hard mode all the way through like the goal, And that doesn't mean much to you guys if you haven't played the game. but if you have, you know what it means. They did nerve it to where it only does like three arrows instead of as many as it used to

Darien:

Okay,

DJ:

See.

Darien:

So it's like it's It's so that one is not like Daedalus shows up. It's like Hades, where we have like we never meet Hades, we never meet Daedalus in the game Hates, but Zagreus often runs into like the Daedalus hammer, which can like can improve the weapon he's using, and add like a ton more cool states and things like that, And that's

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

a good feature of like What if he? if we like, it's like if we could hand it to Daedalus what Daedalus would do with it?

DJ:

Yeah, it's a lot of fun. Just he doesn't actually come up an awful lot. I feel.

Darien:

Think so either, which is why I figured. Hey, you know it would be fun. Let's expand it a little bit and talk about inventors from pop culture Because I think there are some fun ones

Lochlyn:

Uh,

Darien:

and figure out if we can identify if they fall under. Okay. here's okay. Here's the game Essentially Is Daedalus, an archetype for inventors in story telling. So as we discussed earlier, how often times you have this character that's like so creative, larger in life, and threatened by the idea that anyone is better than them. We see that in real life, But this is also a factor in story telling. Do we think that this is a tin plate that we are building on? or is maybe the inventor often so different than how we see data Trade, that it may be, is actually coming from from somewhere else. Do you all know? Do you understand?

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

Yeah?

DJ:

So we're looking for like an arch type of Daedalus.

Darien:

Kind of yeah. Or or if this is one? So the inventor and I almost say inventors slash mad scientist, Because I feel like when you go in to mad scientists you start to like. Ethics are optional, and I would say Daedalus says ethics are optional a lot. again.

Lochlyn:

I think At's the first thing he says when he wakes up in the morning.

Darien:

It's his. It's on. He's got the stickin on his mirror. Ethics are optional because the ethics of helping passe with her romance issues. Mayhap,

DJ:

I have one in the chamber.

Darien:

Okay. Would you like to go first?

DJ:

Yeah, why not. I think this will

Darien:

please?

DJ:

be a fun. The toymaker from Spy Kids Three D, Game over, played by Silvester, Solon, and Silvester to Lone and Sylvester to Lone and Silvester to Lone.

Darien:

No, Yeah,

Lochlyn:

Yeh,

Darien:

All right, I see your. Let me hold on. I see your toymaker from Spy Kids Three, and raise you, Romero, from Spy Kids to played by Steve Bushemi, who creates this wild island of lost dreams with all of these creatures

DJ:

Now

Darien:

running a muck.

DJ:

here's the difference that I would pen

Darien:

Uh, huh,

DJ:

right. Is Romero cared about ethics When we saw that in his character, he deeply regretted this, and what he's done.

Darien:

Interesting

DJ:

The toymaker does at the very least Like really didn't until he got the apology from the grandpa.

Lochlyn:

Yeah.

Darien:

Right right

DJ:

Uh,

Darien:

until the apology

DJ:

uh,

Darien:

makes it all. I'm sorry. Makes it better.

Lochlyn:

M.

Darien:

Uh,

Lochlyn:

M,

Darien:

you know, because Esremema has a whole line of like you think God stays in heaven, because he's afraid of what he's created,

DJ:

Do you think God stays in heaven because he too fears what he created.

Darien:

And I think Daedalus is over here being like bitch. I am God.

DJ:

Yeah,

Lochlyn:

Definitely

Darien:

So all right,

Lochlyn:

Ally.

Darien:

I see you. I see you on the toy maker, Um lock,

Lochlyn:

Okay,

Darien:

I'm throwing lockin,

Lochlyn:

Okay, okay, I see your Spy kids choices selections and raise you, Max from the Adventures of Shark Boy, In love a girl, and that he invented this whole world within his

Darien:

Uh,

Lochlyn:

head, which at times

Darien:

huh,

Lochlyn:

did get very very dark. You know,

DJ:

Very

Lochlyn:

he created this

DJ:

true.

Lochlyn:

hot girl that he was attracted to hot

Darien:

Uh,

Lochlyn:

boy. Also, You know,

Darien:

yeah,

Lochlyn:

Yep,

Darien:

Max, as some

Lochlyn:

pretty

Darien:

thinks

Lochlyn:

Ice

Darien:

he's going

Lochlyn:

princess

Darien:

to have to

Lochlyn:

girl,

Darien:

work out in college, I think

Lochlyn:

Yes, yes,

DJ:

Yeah, Max has some things to work through. Max

Lochlyn:

Yeah,

DJ:

is pretty

Lochlyn:

separate,

DJ:

good.

Lochlyn:

yeah, yeah,

DJ:

Ah,

Darien:

Yes, sorry, so

DJ:

now,

Darien:

I'm going Lochlyn on. hold on Lochlyn

Lochlyn:

Yes, yes,

DJ:

Yeah, if you would like to finish

Lochlyn:

yes,

DJ:

Lochlyn, please,

Darien:

please finish

Lochlyn:

yes,

Darien:

because I see the chaos is still coming.

DJ:

Yeah,

Lochlyn:

Separately, though this is completely separate When I google this movie to remind myself of the character's name,

Darien:

Uh

Lochlyn:

I learned

Darien:

huh

Lochlyn:

that Shark Boy and Love a Girl are both played by actors named Taylor

DJ:

M, hm.

Darien:

That how interesting

Lochlyn:

And I will, and I would like to remind one that Taylor Loutner did in fact marry a Taylor last year,

DJ:

Nice.

Darien:

He did.

Lochlyn:

And I love

Darien:

I

Lochlyn:

that

Darien:

couldn't

Lochlyn:

chaos

Darien:

do that.

Lochlyn:

for him.

Darien:

That would perplex me, but good for them. I'm glad

Lochlyn:

Oh

DJ:

Now

Darien:

they're

DJ:

there's

Darien:

happy

DJ:

just two.

Darien:

someone

DJ:

They

Darien:

has to go by to

DJ:

took

Darien:

right.

DJ:

his last name and they're

Lochlyn:

Yes,

DJ:

both Taylor

Lochlyn:

I think she

DJ:

Laudner,

Lochlyn:

goes. I think she just goes by T. T.

Darien:

T. T. Yeah, good for

Lochlyn:

Yes,

Darien:

them. I'm glad I hope I hope they're

Lochlyn:

yes,

Darien:

happy together. All right due,

Lochlyn:

yes,

Darien:

I'm almost afraid, but go on

DJ:

Uh, from the hit cartoon from the nineties and early ats, The Power Puff girls, mo jo, jo, jo,

Darien:

Interesting. So this is actually a thought. I had. not about Moojojo. Specifically, my thought was actually about Iron Men and Batman. Is that Sorry? I had to really think about what I had just said and it set me into a minor ex essential spiral About what is my life?

DJ:

M.

Darien:

Um,

DJ:

Hm,

Darien:

Okay back in, so I was wondering. So with the Daedalus comparison oftentimes we were very broad and we have to narrow it down. narrow down to make it work. So when

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

we, when we're discussing like inventor, who perhaps is data Lis, archetype, I was. I thought like, Oh yeah, in

DJ:

Oh,

Darien:

man,

DJ:

I'm just

Darien:

Batman,

DJ:

pulling

Darien:

Amazing,

DJ:

up fictional characters that I think are sucking funny ship on this list.

Darien:

Know what you

Lochlyn:

Yeah,

Darien:

are doing and I appreciate that because it lost me into the seguiinto discussing. I think what makes Daedalus different from a Mojo Jojo or a Batman or a Tony Stark is that he does. not. He is not the hero nor the villain.

DJ:

Hm,

Darien:

he is. not. I mean, he killed his nephew that one time and that was bad,

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

But he didn't use his inventions to create a contraption that kills his nephew. He just pushed him off the acropolis in Athens. Um, and later on he does build his waxen wings to escape, but he doesn't then continue to use the waxen wings to fight crime throughout ancient Grace. like he is not. I think what you would call a Greek hero in the same vein is like Um at Atlanta or Hercules or Theseus,

DJ:

Yeah, yeah,

Darien:

And

Lochlyn:

Definitely

Darien:

so that's

Lochlyn:

agree.

Darien:

what I would think makes you have the inventor who is hero or villain. But Daedalus is not. I don't think Daedalus falls into that kind of thing because he doesn't. He makes his things for other people, save for the wings. He's not making those things to empower himself. But I actually do think that's that's very interesting. I'm saying this out loud. He doesn't use his gift for power, right or control. necessarily, he just is this creator. He's like the person that gets to take credit for why more powerful people have access to these amazing things.

DJ:

Yeah, Then Jimmy Neutron.

Lochlyn:

Yeah. I would also like to add to the table

Darien:

Hm.

Lochlyn:

Dr. Dragon from Cam. Possible,

DJ:

Let's he's

Darien:

I

DJ:

trying

Darien:

also,

DJ:

to commit evil with Dr. Dragon.

Darien:

yeah, but I do think

Lochlyn:

That

Darien:

we need

Lochlyn:

is

Darien:

to

Lochlyn:

true.

Darien:

name Heatleast a

DJ:

Oh,

Darien:

little

DJ:

one

Darien:

bit

DJ:

hundred percent,

Darien:

Ould be

DJ:

yeah,

Lochlyn:

Yes,

Darien:

wrong. Would be wrong. as as someone who hops can possible.

DJ:

Uh,

Darien:

The podcastiould be wrong

Lochlyn:

Yes,

Darien:

if I did.

Lochlyn:

that was. I

DJ:

yeah.

Darien:

If

Lochlyn:

thought

Darien:

we

DJ:

now

Darien:

did,

Lochlyn:

you would

DJ:

that's

Lochlyn:

appreciate

DJ:

super fair.

Lochlyn:

that.

Darien:

I think you're locklangif. For me, it's not

Lochlyn:

Yeah,

Darien:

my birthday.

DJ:

Uh,

Darien:

Ah, it was my birthday.

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

H. I think I m speaking of of my other podcast. That's the stitch. I had to do this one for my dear co host Robert Gamer, Dock Brown, from the Back to the Future Trilogy.

Lochlyn:

Yeah,

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

I think I think he's got a lot of of

DJ:

He's just having a good time with his own gift and he's not.

Darien:

just. Yeah, He's just

DJ:

That's

Darien:

making

DJ:

all he's doing.

Darien:

ship because he's smart, incredible stuff. I also think that perhaps a little bit Dock Brown subscribes to the ethics are optional thing. He has never killed his nephew.

DJ:

Oh, yeah,

Darien:

He was mayhaps doing business with terrorists to get plutonium

DJ:

Yeah, but he needed

Darien:

And that

DJ:

the plutonium.

Darien:

feels.

Lochlyn:

But also

Darien:

yeah, but later

Lochlyn:

Daedalus

Darien:

on,

Lochlyn:

murdered his

Darien:

but

Lochlyn:

nephew, So like potato potato.

Darien:

yeah,

DJ:

Yeah, exactly

Darien:

yeah, we did a potato.

DJ:

right.

Darien:

Later on

Lochlyn:

Oh,

Darien:

He is actually able to use garbage. It seems like to power the flux capacitor, so clearly we were a few steps away from not having to do business with with the terrorists, So also, it's plutonium, which is incredibly dangerous, and you just have that in your garage. So

Lochlyn:

M,

Darien:

my guy,

Lochlyn:

hm,

Darien:

I think he's great. I think Do Brown is very fun. I also think he says ethics are optional, so I would put him as a Daedalus archetype, And the fact that morning Mc Fly survives the whole series is amazing. not to that he would murder him. but I'm saying maybe we were in an acre. situation.

Lochlyn:

M, hm,

DJ:

Me one trying to nail it down to it. I'd get this wrong.

Darien:

Okay, I think there's a lot of characters who are like. There's tons of characters who are inventors Rike. but like, for example, I would say, like Donatello from a lot of iterations of the teenage mutoninjure, turnals, he is the inventor. He makes the things they all use, but I would not say he gives me Daedalusvibes So I'm trying to figure out what is it about a character that's like, Yeah, that's a Daedalus right there. And not just that's our super genius. That's our inventor.

DJ:

Yeah, I will put forward

Darien:

Okay.

DJ:

Allen Bradley, the lead programmer and creator of Traun,

Darien:

Oh,

Lochlyn:

M,

Darien:

Is that is that the character in Tron,

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

not train?

DJ:

that's the

Darien:

but that's

DJ:

Yeah. That's the character in Tron,

Darien:

okay.

DJ:

and he

Darien:

That's

DJ:

also

Darien:

what.

DJ:

plays

Darien:

is it?

DJ:

Traun. Right and

Darien:

No,

DJ:

ran Is Yes,

Darien:

who's

DJ:

he

Darien:

the guy?

DJ:

Kevin Flynn, Clue,

Darien:

Thank thank you. Thank you. That's

DJ:

He's

Darien:

that's

DJ:

played

Darien:

right.

DJ:

by

Darien:

That's

DJ:

Jeff

Darien:

the guy.

DJ:

Bridges,

Darien:

I was

DJ:

but

Darien:

getting them. I was Jeff Bridges.

DJ:

yeah,

Darien:

I was getting the confused. Thank you.

DJ:

Allen

Darien:

Okay.

DJ:

Bradley, he played by Bruce Box Lightner.

Darien:

Okay. Okay,

DJ:

I think that's our penance.

Darien:

What

DJ:

He

Darien:

what

DJ:

coded

Darien:

it is about

DJ:

Tron.

Darien:

Adam Bradley? Yeah, what is about Adam Bradley? That is specifically Daedalus, Sq. Think

DJ:

He wasn't trying to, I mean he might. I haven't seen the movie and god knows how long,

Darien:

It's kind

DJ:

Uh,

Darien:

of boring.

DJ:

he wasn't trying

Lochlyn:

Hm,

DJ:

to do anything super nefarious with it. He was just making a security system and

Darien:

Hm.

DJ:

that sort of curity system also happened to be a fucking. An. At's kind of gonna

Darien:

That's

DJ:

go

Darien:

a

DJ:

rage

Darien:

good point

DJ:

a little

Darien:

because it

DJ:

right.

Darien:

doesn't feel like we talk about Daedalus when he's a whole. Like I invented carpet tree, and also Maston sales for a navy. He's not inherently, or even when you talk about the Pasaffersuit and the labyrinth and Arians

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

dancing floor, there's nothing inherently like nefarious. For what He's not like creating things to see like Bhe's, not making Jurassic Park right

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

like we're not, Behe's. not like trying to push the bounds of of what Is almost. I was wondering if like Victor Frankenstein makes sense, Victor Frankenstein, who was not a doctor, who dropped out of medical school,

DJ:

Yep,

Darien:

and his whole like bring creating the creature like I'm trying to like, be better than the gods, and like, take this power of life and death into my hands. Like that is very mad scientist, so I'm almost like, Maybe my comment earlier about let's bring in the mad scientist almost is incorrect in this conversation about About Daedalus. At least so far as we're discussing him as he appears in the Greek story telling traditions,

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

Because he just made cool ship, but he was never doing anything that that is at odds to the natural order of how the world is perceived. But we do see that in the Rick Riodan books where he starts making, where he steals his nephew's cool idea, and then starts making robo automaton bodies for himself, And

Lochlyn:

M,

Darien:

that isn't

Lochlyn:

M.

Darien:

Arently to prolong his life, because he doesn't want to die

DJ:

Yeah.

Darien:

and sit to eternal punishment

Lochlyn:

Yes,

Darien:

for the whole nephew, murder. And then, well, now King Minos is a judge, so I got to deal with that ship.

DJ:

Fuck,

Darien:

He's gonna hold a personal

Lochlyn:

M.

Darien:

grudge. Justice

DJ:

Yeah.

Darien:

ain't blind in the underworld, So So it's it is okay. That's it. That's the archetype. You have an inventor who's not necessarily trying to

DJ:

Who's just making

Darien:

cause

DJ:

ship?

Darien:

mass destruction, who's making cool ship because they are good at what they do, not necessarily because they're out to. They're not out to kill God or something like that.

DJ:

Yeah,

Lochlyn:

I would like to bring one other candidate to the table

Darien:

Please.

Lochlyn:

if I may,

Darien:

Yeah, please

Lochlyn:

Drdfinshmertz.

DJ:

Okay,

Darien:

Do

DJ:

Classic.

Darien:

smart evil in court.

Lochlyn:

Yes,

DJ:

he's always trying to.

Lochlyn:

In

DJ:

He's

Lochlyn:

that.

DJ:

trying to use it for nefarious deeds, but he can never succeed with it.

Darien:

Hm,

Lochlyn:

So that's my question then, Because he never actually succeeds Because of Perry. Can he really be

Darien:

Hm,

Lochlyn:

evil also? but also a lot of

Darien:

Hm,

Lochlyn:

things he's trying to do aren't actually evil. He's trying to get rid of like lines at the super market. He's trying

Darien:

Hm,

Lochlyn:

to

DJ:

Yeah,

Lochlyn:

build a giant vacuum cleaner.

DJ:

the

Lochlyn:

Like

DJ:

thing is

Lochlyn:

Is what

DJ:

is

Lochlyn:

he?

DJ:

that

Lochlyn:

is? It truly evil.

DJ:

I would. I would say no. However, we did see the universe where Perry got hurt and so due from carts went unchecked And that was the movie.

Darien:

Okay, so he does,

Lochlyn:

That is

Darien:

particularly,

Lochlyn:

true.

Darien:

He has maybe

Lochlyn:

That is

Darien:

the

Lochlyn:

true.

Darien:

capacity for evil,

DJ:

But

Darien:

but

DJ:

he can never.

Darien:

I would say

DJ:

He

Darien:

most

DJ:

can never

Darien:

most

DJ:

realize

Darien:

of us do.

DJ:

it.

Darien:

I would say, maybe perhaps most folks do have a capacity for good or for evil. And there are other factors in our life that come into play. Whether not those things are realized.

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

We also know Dufensmart is a good dad, is

DJ:

Yes,

Darien:

a very good dad.

DJ:

he tries his best

Lochlyn:

Hm,

DJ:

to be a good

Darien:

He

DJ:

dad.

Darien:

tries his best

Lochlyn:

yes,

Darien:

and he's not the perfect dad, but he is active. There are tumbler posts. You've all seen him. I'm sure that talks about. you know the cycle of childhood trauma, how his parents were incredibly neglectful for him. How he goes out of the way to not do that for his daughter, Vanessa. How one time a guy cat calls her and I think he turns that man into an ice cube.

DJ:

I think he dehydrated him. Yah,

Darien:

Yeah,

Lochlyn:

Yes,

Darien:

he hit him

Lochlyn:

yes,

Darien:

and I stand by that wholeheartedly

DJ:

No one under percent. Yeah,

Darien:

Yeah, No,

DJ:

I

Darien:

I think

DJ:

saw

Darien:

I

DJ:

it.

Darien:

think Dupin smarts. Yeah, is dealing with these things in the way he can, and they're all very remarkable and he's again also not trying to go fight God or anything. Not trying. He never tries to bring anyone back from the dead, So I think

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

that's a big one.

DJ:

he did. He did fuse

Lochlyn:

Hm.

DJ:

his pet cock roach and ice cream, and that was a little horrifying.

Darien:

Let's help, but Daedalus did build that super realistic for sup, for pacify,

DJ:

Oh

Darien:

So

DJ:

no, yeah, yeah,

Darien:

we're talkin

DJ:

like

Darien:

about horrifying.

Lochlyn:

Yeah,

DJ:

yeah, yeah,

Darien:

That doesn't

Lochlyn:

I feel like

Darien:

gate

Lochlyn:

it's a pretty

Darien:

you.

Lochlyn:

one to one compares.

DJ:

yeah, right,

Darien:

Yes,

DJ:

I'm gonna. I'm gonna put forward

Darien:

Okay,

DJ:

Jack and Mattie Fenton from Danny Fantom. They're just inventing ship to get ghosts.

Darien:

Yes, Yes, I would say Jack and Mattie Fenton from Yeah, No, not wrong, And they're

Lochlyn:

Hm,

Darien:

not using it to empower themselves. Are empower. Danny

DJ:

No, they

Darien:

is

DJ:

just

Darien:

a

DJ:

want

Darien:

side

DJ:

to like

Darien:

effect.

DJ:

Danny as a side effect.

Darien:

They're just really fascinated with ghosts and they are using technology to create and learn more. Absolutely, Jack and Matty Finch and our

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

modern Daedalussis. We did it.

DJ:

yeah,

Darien:

We did it, dear listeners,

Lochlyn:

Yes,

Darien:

Lucan, thank you. thank you. I think

Lochlyn:

that that's it.

Darien:

that's it. we've done it. That's that's the episode.

Lochlyn:

It took a long time, but we finally

Darien:

But

Lochlyn:

got there.

Darien:

we've finally

DJ:

Oh,

Darien:

got the.

DJ:

yeah.

Darien:

And isn't that what invention and creation is about? You have to be willing to put in the work, willing to try things to test it out. You know, we saw we The first suit that one, Um, best in show at the mascarade. We didn't see the other attempts of Daedalus trying to own his craft To get to that point. You know it's all about trial

DJ:

Exactly.

Darien:

and error. Don't start out incredible. You have to sucking at something is the first step at being kind of awesome to something, so

DJ:

Hm.

Darien:

stick with it and

DJ:

Absolutely.

Darien:

ethics are optional,

Lochlyn:

Whoo.

Darien:

And someone's going to isolate that and then I'm going to get cancelled. I'm

DJ:

It'll

Darien:

sure

DJ:

be

Lochlyn:

Yeah,

DJ:

fine. Ethics are always option. What do you want about

Darien:

All right. All right. All right, I feel. I feel that the time is coming, but before we we accept and embrace the inevitable digit lock, Landis? There anything else? Daedalus wise that we got to talk about before we escape the labyrinth.

DJ:

Double D from Ed, Edd, and Eddy? It's a very smart guy being led astray by Eddy.

Darien:

Eddy is King Minos.

DJ:

Eddy is King Minos,

Darien:

Oh no, we didn't. That is King

DJ:

is

Darien:

Mine.

DJ:

King Minos.

Lochlyn:

There you go.

DJ:

Ed is the Minotaur. Double D is Daedalus. 

Darien:

Oh my God, I want. you can't just throw this up that you do this all the time. You always do this at the end of the episode.

DJ:

Uh, huh,

Darien:

We can't. we can't. we just have to leave Now. We have to take that thought and leave it here

DJ:

Absolutely,

Darien:

in the labrinth.

Lochlyn:

That's for. That's for your listeners

DJ:

I

Lochlyn:

to

DJ:

am

Lochlyn:

figure

DJ:

part

Lochlyn:

out for themselves.

DJ:

on you, listeners.

Darien:

Yes,

DJ:

who?

Darien:

that's DJ's

DJ:

What

Darien:

gift

DJ:

other

Darien:

to you.

DJ:

end Nettie characters can relate to other Ralph’s Hercules. You know the works.

Darien:

We're leaving Now we are escaping from this place.

Lochlyn:

Yes, Yes,

Darien:

All right Lochlyn, thank you. Thank you so much for joining us.

Lochlyn:

Course. of course, you know. I just like to finish out by saying thank you for having me. Of course, remember, don't

Darien:

Hm.

Lochlyn:

let the gods be your limit on what you can do in this life. If you want to invent, carpentry,

Darien:

M.

Lochlyn:

do it. Who cares if someone else did it before

Darien:

Do it.

Lochlyn:

you take that and claim it for yourself? Reckon

Darien:

I

Lochlyn:

everything

Darien:

love

DJ:

Absolutely

Lochlyn:

that

Darien:

that.

Lochlyn:

has ever

Darien:

Take

Lochlyn:

happened.

Darien:

rein.

DJ:

I,

Darien:

Everything fabulous.

DJ:

I am the inventor of the S twenty Two Bomber that we use.

Darien:

Okay, All right,

Lochlyn:

Yeah,

Darien:

That's the thing Wants to take credit.

Lochlyn:

okay,

Darien:

For sure. I would have done.

DJ:

I invented Na pom and all atrocities that come with it,

Darien:

And and

Lochlyn:

No,

DJ:

Operation

Darien:

DJ gets a Pass

DJ:

Rolling Thunder. That was me, baby.

Darien:

DJ gets a pass because it's his birthday

Lochlyn:

There you go.

Darien:

Lochlyn is. Is there any call to actions you like to give our listeners anywhere where they could find any work that you have on the Internet that you are proud of and believe the world should embrace

Lochlyn:

Any work that I'm proud of you know, the fact that I'm still here day to day getting my degree. That's what I'm proud of. But I would like to recommend you seek out, because have I contributed much to the world? No, no, I haven't this point time, like I said, struggling grad student, So. but what I would like to recommend people seek out is this beautiful novel. Since we were earlier talking about cool women ala Circe. it's called Kaikeyi by Vaishnavi Patel. This beautiful story about being from The Gavagita, I believe it could be a different story. Oh no, the Ramayana the Ramayana

Darien:

Okay, okay,

Lochlyn:

Yes, Yes, So she is a bad ass sorceress taking people down. She, she can control connections between herself and other people and manipulate them to get further along in life.

DJ:

Interesting.

Darien:

That sounds

Lochlyn:

So

Darien:

super

Lochlyn:

yes,

Darien:

cool. Yes, there will absolutely

Lochlyn:

yes,

Darien:

be a link in the

Lochlyn:

Yes,

Darien:

show Note. So if you're like, what was that book lockin recommended? I can't

Lochlyn:

yes,

Darien:

remember. You can come back to the episode and click it. It'll be right there for you.

Lochlyn:

Hm,

Darien:

I'll send it to the Good Reads page.

Lochlyn:

yes,

Darien:

I'm sure

Lochlyn:

yes, yes,

Darien:

I think that is it for us. Should we tell them yet? No,

DJ:

No, No,

Darien:

not yet.

DJ:

it'll be fine. Don't worry about it.

Darien:

We'll tell them later. We'll tell them later. All

DJ:

Don't

Darien:

right,

DJ:

worry about it. Guess

Darien:

Yeah, so for now I'll just say Lochlyn, thank you again for joining us, listeners.

Lochlyn:

Yes, thank

Darien:

Thank

Lochlyn:

you so

Darien:

you

Lochlyn:

much.

Darien:

so much for listening. We will be back in your ears on Tuesday April eleventh to finish out season for the podcast by talking about Pan, DJ's got big feelings.

DJ:

I got

Darien:

Be

DJ:

big

Darien:

prepared,

DJ:

feelings on Pan.

Darien:

but until then Don't be like Zeus.

DJ:

Don't be like Zeus

[Outro music]

Darien: 

Muses of Mythology is created and hosted by Darien and DJ Smartt. It's edited by Darien Smartt. The show is produced by Darien and DJ Smartt as well as 

DJ: 

Tim O'Connor. The Crystal Con Man

DJ: 

Our music is "Athens Festival" by Martin Haene. And our cover art is by Audrey Miller. You can find her on Instagram @bombshellnutshellart

Darien: 

Want more Muses of Mythology? Support the show on Patreon! Just one dollar gets you exclusive bonus content. Get more at Patreon.com/MusesOfMythology.

DJ: 

You can also support the show by leaving a review at LoveThePodcast.com/MusesOfMythology. Or tell a friend why you love the show! 

Darien: 

Don’t forget to check out all of our episodes and episode transcripts at MusesOfMythology.com

DJ: 

Thanks for listening!