Story 58: The Great God Pan is Soup! (w/ Robert Gaymer)

“Pan went back to the primordial god soup.”

We close out season four with an episode about Pan! Which means it's finally time to answer a question from the beginning of the season: What counts as "the wilds?" Beloved past guest, podcaster, and meme maker Robert Gaymer returns only to be dragged into a fierce debate!

Other topics include Grover’s arc from follower to activist leader, the many myths of Pan’s parentage, the time Pan and Apollo faced off in a battle of the bands, Robin Hood’s famous reed pipes, and the blatant disrespecting of Nico DiAngelo.

Spoilers for Heroes of Olympus, Trials of Apollo, Playful Pan, and Go the Distance: A Twisted Tale

Content Warning: This episode contains mentions of and conversations about sexual assault, murder, death, climate change, and colonialism.

Check out all the things Robert does!
TheDamMemePage on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thedammemepage/
Entering Storybrooke Podcast: https://linktr.ee/storybrookepod
That's the Sitch Podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/7dKrUL5YsCKH8wZg6s9KrA?si=41699d4883a94022

Truham Grammar Book Club Podcast:
https://www.instagram.com/truhamgrammarbookclubpod/

Muses of Mythology will return Tuesday, July 18, 2023!!

The Battle of the Labyrinth Mini Myths Bonus Episode up at Bunker 9: Patreon.com/musesofmythology

About Us

Muses of Mythology was created and co-hosted by Darien and DJ Smartt.

Our music is Athens Festival by Martin Haene. Our cover art is by Audrey Miller. Find her on Instagram @bombshellnutshellart

Love the podcast? Support us on Patreon and get instant access to bloopers, outtakes, and bonus episodes! Patreon.com/musesofmythology

You can also leave us a 5-star rating and review on your favorite podcatcher at Lovethepodcast.com/musesofmythology

Find us @MusesOfMyth on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. Find all of our episodes and episode transcripts at MusesOfMythology.com

TRANSCRIPT

Darien:

Welcome to Muses and Mythology, a podcast where we explore how ancient myths become modern pop culture. This week we continue our journey through Rick Riordan's Percy Jackson and the Olympian series with Story 58: Pan. I'm your co-host and podcasting muse, Darien Smartt. Joining me is my co-host and brother, DJ. 

DJ:

How's everybody doing today? I am DJ and I am the muse of the wilds. And let me tell you, Rick's got it wrong and right at the same time.

Darien:

We are going to get all into that, but first we're going to use around the garden for a bit.

DJ:

Is the gardens the wild? Here's to say. It's not.

Darien:

I...

DJ:

It might be. We are muses. We're not technically people. 

Darien:

Stop talking. We're leaving this space now.

[Audio Break]

Darien:

 DJ Great News,

DJ:

What's up?

Darien:

I found us a new review.

DJ:

Oh really?

Darien:

Okay, technically I didn't find it, it was sent to us, but it's still here, new five star review from Laurel Alec Two, titled Y'all Crack Me Up. Just started this podcast, and y'all and your guests crack me up. But one thing that makes my eye twitch, y'all keep calling Thanatos, Thanos, Than-tos, like the MCU character.

DJ:

I'm gonna argue against it. I have never once said, phantos.

Darien:

I will also say I've probably accidentally called him Thanos, and I will admit to doing that, because that sounds like something I would

DJ:

Also,

Darien:

do.

DJ:

the review says than a toss.

Darien:

I said I'm okay you pulled it up to

DJ:

Nah, I just remember it.

Darien:

oh Yeah, I said you we're not listening not are you I would just fully admit that I've definitely said it several different ways And we'll probably continue to do so if I am NOT actively playing

DJ:

I

Darien:

Hades,

DJ:

will continue

Darien:

and I apologize

DJ:

to say,

Darien:

for that

DJ:

I will continue to say Thanatos until I die. The only times I've heard Thanatos are in fact when it's not American and those don't matter.

Darien:

This person's from the US, so be nice. All

DJ:

Oh, well, you know.

Darien:

right. Normally when you mispronounce something, it doesn't bother me because everyone pronounces things differently, and let's be real, Greek names are all, they're Greek names, so we're all probably out them wrong. But I'm on one where you say it a lot, and I had to write a review because I like your podcast enough, and I'm binging it, and one of you five stars, and they always ask for review, so here it is. Love this, keep being funny. Thank you so much. Thank

DJ:

Thank

Darien:

you for,

DJ:

you.

Darien:

hey, thank you for still leaving us five stars, even though we've been driving

DJ:

I know,

Darien:

you

DJ:

right?

Darien:

absolutely

DJ:

Crazy.

Darien:

up a wall. Like, yeah.

DJ:

Amazing.

Darien:

Do I, listen, apologize. I also apologize for the fact that I'm probably gonna keep doing it, not on purpose. This is not to slight you personally or any of our listeners. This is just the way I am as a person. My brain will just remove or add vowels and consonants to words that they just don't exist. But

DJ:

Yeah.

Darien:

thank you. Thank you so much for leaving us a review. Honestly, it is so cool because we don't get to get a lot of feedback from every single episode and we don't get to hear, like we don't get to sit there and meet our listeners. We don't go on tour.

DJ:

Hmm.

Darien:

and hear what they think. So it is really cool when a listener takes the time, not just to listen to our show, but take more time from like their day to leave us a review to let us know what they think, what they like. And honestly, I like this, this very specific,

DJ:

No, this

Darien:

this

DJ:

is fun.

Darien:

one thing, I love that so much. That's like, oh, I love the show. I love hearing that, but the specific, hey, this is great. This thing makes me wanna claw my eyeballs out.

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

Thank you so much.

DJ:

in defense

Darien:

I

DJ:

of

Darien:

like

DJ:

myself

Darien:

specific

DJ:

as well.

Darien:

examples.

DJ:

In defense of myself as well, I've first heard Thanatos' name from Smite, and Smite says Thanatos. There's

Darien:

Well.

DJ:

a joke that it's Thanatoast, and he has a toast themed skin. It's a lot of fun.

Darien:

That sounds great. But yeah, just big thank you to a

DJ:

Mm-hmm.

Darien:

listener for leaving it. All the listeners who left reviews. And honestly, if you like the show and you must because you're listening, especially you're listening to the mid roll part.

DJ:

I know.

Darien:

And and if you think our show is valuable and other people should also listen and you want to see the community grow. Leaving a review was a really, really cool way to do that. Just let people know why the show is worth their time. It helps a lot when people are thinking about whether or not they want to start this

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

silly little podcast.

DJ:

we absolutely love hearing from fans and we would love to hear more from you guys.

Darien:

Yep.

DJ:

It's an absolute blast and it generally makes us feel very good.

Darien:

Yeah, growing the audience allows us to grow the show and additionally grow the impact that we

DJ:

Yes

Darien:

can make as a show. And speaking of the impact we can make at a show, and speaking of the impact we can make as a show, it is a new month, which means it's time for our monthly Patreon donation.

DJ:

It is a new month. So it is a new month, and this month we have 10 patrons. So we'll be adding an additional $10 to make it a clean $20 bill to

Darien:

Okay.

DJ:

the literacy

Darien:

We're just

DJ:

for...

Darien:

gonna put it in an envelope and mail it to

DJ:

Mail it

Darien:

the organization

DJ:

right, mail

Darien:

aiming

DJ:

it right

Darien:

to create

DJ:

to

Darien:

a net positive

DJ:

these people.

Darien:

in the world. Yes, and DJ, what is that organization? What was it?

DJ:

It is literacy for incarcerated teens or LIT. LIT supports the school library collections at New York City's juvenile detention centers. They order and, I mean, they obviously help incarcerated teens, people who are

Darien:

Thanks for watching!

DJ:

in the juvenile detention, the juvenile system.

Darien:

Mm-hmm.

DJ:

They order and maintain approved books and reading materials for young adult readers ages 8 to 17. authors to, you know, hold on. They coordinate with authors to have them visit the juvenile detention centers for peer directed book discussions.

Darien:

Oh, that's cool.

DJ:

Yeah. They also provide literacy programming relevant to young people's reading level. So they can never run out of books and get super bored like a lot of people who have in, well, the current education system.

Darien:

Speaking from experience, DJ.

DJ:

Just a touch, right? 

Darien:

You can learn more about Lit at the link in our show notes. Thank you so much to our patrons who help make these donations possible. If you wanna learn more about our Patreon, or join that illustrious club. You can do so at patreon.com/MusesOfMythology.

DJ:

And now, back to the show.

[Audio Break]

Darien:

All right, DJ, here we are. We have reached the end of our journey through the Battle of the Labyrinth. Season four, coming to a close.

DJ:

What a fucking long book.

Darien:

It's a great book though,

DJ:

It's a great book.

Darien:

I think this one might be my favorite.

DJ:

It's definitely up there. I think this one's my favorite too. But I haven't listened to it in a minute, so here's to say.

Darien:

who's to say, but we are not finishing our journey alone. No, no, joining us is favorite beloved returning guest of the damn meme page, it's Robert Gaymer. 

Robert:

Hello everyone, how are we doing?

Darien:

Robert,

DJ:

Fantastic.

Darien:

they can't answer you. DJ can't answer you.

DJ:

I can answer.

Robert:

I'm speaking to two people right now and I'm asking how they are. DJ is doing great. Darien, how are you doing?

Darien:

I'm doing very well. I had a very good job interview earlier today. Makes me happy.

DJ:

Congratulations.

Robert:

Hell yeah,

Darien:

Good

Robert:

Slade.

Darien:

ego boost. So Robert, why are you here for Pan specifically? I like getting people, I like getting your

Robert:

Thank you.

Darien:

guests

Robert:

Thank you. 

Darien:

to tell us why they wanted this topic. And you asked for pan.

Robert:

I did ask for pan. Listen, when I asked for pan, oh God, how many months ago was this?

DJ:

Thank you. Thank you.

Robert:

I'm pretty sure

Darien:

Oh, oh, ages.

Robert:

I had a reason to ask for pan. I don't remember that reason. So my new reason is because I have one favorite story of pan that

Darien:

Oh,

Robert:

I really like

Darien:

mm-hmm.

Robert:

that you all didn't mention in the notes. So I'll

Darien:

It's

Robert:

be happy

Darien:

not in

Robert:

to

Darien:

the

Robert:

mention

Darien:

notes.

Robert:

that.

Darien:

No,

Robert:

I. Hmm.

Darien:

wonderful. Oh, I'm so excited. Awesome.

DJ:

Nice.

Darien:

Well first, uh, Robert, since you are the guest, please tell us. What do you remember about Pan from the Percy Jackson series? What's his deal?

Robert:

Alright, so Pan in the Percy Jackson series sort of follows the basic origin of Pan. Somebody heard that, hey, the great god Pan is dead and ever since then, the Satyrs never believed it, so they kept sending out people, they kept sending out Satyrs, not people.  Satyrs to go find them. Um, and for years and years and years, no one can find them until finally Grover went into the labyrinth

Darien:

Thank you.

Robert:

with his brilliant

Darien:

Thank you. 

Robert:

idea that actually worked. But it was like, well, if we can't find pan where the wild is, maybe we'll find him where the wild isn't. And lo and behold, they found him where the wild isn't in the labyrinth.

Darien:

Mm-hmm.

Robert:

Uh,

Darien:

Yep.

Robert:

they find him. He goes. around the group being like you're all special in your own way, peace, and then he dies.

Darien:

Yeah. That's that's basically the jam. I think we need I'm going to a lot and let's say 12 minutes of yelling about that sequence because we got a.

DJ:

weird sequence.

Darien:

It is. such a children's book sequence. And I do mean that in the best possible way.

Robert:

I don't, I mean it derogatorily.

Darien:

Ah. Ah.

DJ:

Ha ha ha 

Robert:

Percy Jackson, the children's book series, derogatory.

Darien:

to rockets or oh no. No, so as our, we all know this, we're readers are dear listeners, you know what's up. But the labyrinth brings our group of brave heroes to like a, just deep within the carlsbad caverns of New Mexico into a beautiful like underground oasis where it's like the walls griddle with, the walls glittered with crystal strange light, beautiful plants grew, and

Robert:

Thank you.

Darien:

then

Robert:

Thank you. 

Darien:

there are just tons of extinct animals, a dodo bird, it looks like a Tasmanian tiger, a huge rodent, the mother of all guinea pigs, and roaming behind the bed, picking berries with its trunk, was a woolly mammoth. And on the bed lay an old sader. He watched us as we approached. His eyes blue as the sky. His curly hair was white, and so was his pointed beard. with gray. His horns were enormous, glossy brown and curved. There is no way he could have hidden those under a hat the way Grover did. Around his neck hung a set of reed pipes. Grover fell on his knees in front of the bed. Lord Pan, the God smiled kindly, but there was sadness in his eyes. Grover, my dear brave satyr, I have waited for you for a long, I have waited a very long time for you. And the Dodo bird hums, it's a small world. And then later hums Kumbaya. And I love that Percy's like, I noticed all my friends were kneeling. They had odd looks on their face. I got to my knees too. Like he's not odd. He's not not odd by the situation, but it doesn't occur to him to be reverent.

DJ:

Yeah.

Darien:

Because Percy is not one to be reverent in the face of the gods, any god in particular. But he does make an exception for Pan. This dude's never personally fucked him over, so... Yep.

DJ:

Not yet.

Robert:

not yet. Would you consider giving everyone a little pep talk and then to Percy being essentially like, hey, you're special and then he just dies? Like would you consider that fucking him over in some way? Yeah.

Darien:

I don't know, Robert, you do keep saying everyone gets a pep talk, but what? Nico

Robert:

Except

Darien:

de Angelo,

Robert:

Nico!

Darien:

except Nico, who you can't pretend that Pan just didn't fucking notice him because he does speak to Nico. He does acknowledge Nico when he says, I'm dying.

Robert:

Yeah.

Darien:

Yeah. He says, oh, do you like pan says he's dying. Grover is like not wanting to accept this deer pan or deer Grover. You must accept the truth. Your companion Nico, he understands Nico, not it slowly. He's dying. He should have died. long ago this is more like a memory and and then everyone gets a pep talk except for Nico and I want to just talk about why the fuck

Robert:

Things that feel, things that aren't necessarily homophobic,

Darien:

just I get 12 minutes

DJ:

I just don't understand. I just don't understand.

Robert:

but feel like they are. So, I think that's a good point. 

Darien:

Feel homophobic. Yeah. Weird.

DJ:

I think it just continues that train of, Nico's a little creepy. And the God thinks that. 

Robert:

I think it's a little Gremlin

Darien:

He

Robert:

boy.

Darien:

like has Nico confirm what he is saying. He like, hey, you kid, do this thing for me. Confirm to them that I am dying. All right, now I will not speak to you even as I'm telling everyone else how special

DJ:

I've

Darien:

and great

DJ:

gotten

Darien:

they

DJ:

everything

Darien:

are.

DJ:

I need from you.

Darien:

And you get nothing from me.

DJ:

You get the simple fact. You get to be one of the announcers of I'm Dying.

Darien:

Yes, basically, it's like Tyson gets a thing,

DJ:

Thank you. Bye.

Darien:

Annabeth, even

Robert:

Yeah.

Darien:

Miss Rachel dare. The End

DJ:

Ugh.

Robert:

Can we read quickly what he says to each of them?

Darien:

Yes, Robert,

Robert:

Percy

Darien:

would you like

Robert:

Jackson,

Darien:

to? Mm-hmm. The End

Robert:

yes, of course. Percy Jackson, the God said, I know what you have seen today. I know your doubts, but I give you this news. When the time comes, you will not be ruled by fear. He turned to Annabeth, daughter of Athena, your time is coming. You will play a great role, though it might not be the one you imagined. Then he looked at Tyson, master Cyclops, do not despair. Heroes rarely live up to our expectations. But you, Tyson, your name shall live among the Cyclopses for generations. And Miss Rachel Dare. I know you believe you cannot make a ment, he said, but you are just as important as your father. I,

Darien:

Bye.

Robert:

and then he's like, I know you don't believe this now, Pan said, but look for opportunities, they will come. And then to Grover, he's like, my dear satyr, will you carry my message? And then he's like, I know you don't believe this now, Pan said, but look for opportunities, they will come.

Darien:

I can't.

Robert:

You can, Pan said. You are the strongest and bravest. Your heart is true. You have believed in me more than anyone ever has, which is why you must bring the message and why you must be the first to release me. 

Darien:

Or continuing the passage or?

Robert:

No, I think

Darien:

OK.

Robert:

that's it. And then, you know, I guess he just looks at Nico, he's like, hmm.

Darien:

It's so weird. I I remember it being mentioned later. I don't think it's mentioned in this book but is it brought up in

DJ:

the

Darien:

The

DJ:

cows

Darien:

lost

DJ:

of Hades.

Darien:

the last last Olympian or something about

Robert:

I don't

Darien:

how

Robert:

think it's brought up again.

Darien:

I swear I have it in my head where Nico's talking to Percy about like how he doesn't belong anywhere and Percy can't even deny it because he thinks about how Pan didn't like speak to Nico.

Robert:

Right.

Darien:

But did I make that?

Robert:

No,

Darien:

I

Robert:

no, no, no, no. There's

Darien:

can't.

Robert:

something

DJ:

You were just thinking, man, yeah, like,

Robert:

like that, I think either.

DJ:

Pan didn't even speak to Nico while you were reading it. That's what you thought,

Robert:

I didn't fucking want

DJ:

and so like you attributed it to Percy's voice.

Robert:

you here, dude.

DJ:

He's just like, I don't know what you're talking about. 

Darien:

Maybe, I don't know. I'm looking at it.

DJ:

sure we'll find out in the next season.

Darien:

I'm flipping through real quick to see.

Robert:

So yeah, it's just, Apollo goes around, pep talks everyone.

Darien:

Mm-hmm.

Robert:

The only people I think he says genuinely the nicest things to are Rachel and Grover and Tyson. Percy and Annabeth, she's just both of them, he's like, yeah, you both have a destiny

Darien:

Yep.

Robert:

you need to follow. Good luck. And so, that's it. I'm gonna go ahead and get some of the rest of the stuff. I'm gonna go ahead and get some of the rest of the stuff. I'm gonna go ahead and get some of the rest of the stuff.

Darien:

Bye.

DJ:

Bye.

Darien:

Yeah. It's not like the nicest advice, but it's something, I don't know, I can't find it. I swear to God it's mentioned later, but I can't remember where it's at. It's not important. It doesn't matter. But yeah, maybe it's more like Pan could offer Nico no advice. He's like, I have nothing for you,

DJ:

I, yeah. I,

Darien:

kid. Your issues are

DJ:

yeah.

Darien:

beyond my scope. So like,

Robert:

To be fair,

Darien:

literally bye.

Robert:

the literal God of Misery will meet Nico in the future and she'll be like, yeah, no, you're perfection. I can't do anything worse.

Darien:

Yeah, he's like, I can offer you no solace at this time. Bye.

Robert:

Well, yeah, you can't offer him any solace.

Darien:

I'm not even going to try.

DJ:

Can offer you a will, solace.

Robert:

Damn it, you took my joke. I'm sorry, 

Darien:

it and then I wasn't gonna say it and you two monsters.

DJ:

Yeah.

Robert:

Same brain cell.

DJ:

100%.

Darien:

Thank you.

DJ:

I think

Darien:

Thank you. 

DJ:

Rick just doesn't know what to do with Nico ever.

Darien:

It

DJ:

Not

Darien:

does

Robert:

Thank you.

DJ:

until

Darien:

feel

Robert:

Thank you. 

Darien:

like

DJ:

like,

Darien:

that sometimes.

DJ:

not until Tower of Nero, honestly.

Robert:

Yeah, I can't wait

DJ:

To have Nero

Robert:

for

DJ:

and maybe some of Blood of Olympus. He got Nico pretty fucking good in that one.

Darien:

Yeah.

Robert:

I can't

DJ:

I

Robert:

wait

DJ:

think

Robert:

for

DJ:

that's why Nico

Robert:

sun

DJ:

was

Robert:

and the

DJ:

a character

Robert:

star.

DJ:

in Blood of Olympus. This was like, okay, what do I do with this character? Let's actually get into the mind of this character. So he gets his own chapters, okay?

Robert:

I Can't wait for Sun and Star to be like the best written Nico just because Mark's helping right

Darien:

Yeah.

DJ:

I think it's gonna

Darien:

Yeah.

DJ:

be good.

Darien:

I think Marco shows going to kick ass. It's going to be painful. But I think good. I'm not worried.

DJ:

It's gonna be a lot

Darien:

I'm

DJ:

of fun.

Darien:

not worried. Haven't figured out how we as the podcast are going to consume that. I think we're just going to go be on everyone else's show and as they read it and talk about it, and we'll continue on our little journey and interrupt it. But discussing now, fans, the whole thing really is like to die and or to already He is part of the like overall message of environmentalism that Rick has put in these books that I find so aggressively depressing in the year 2023 Which is not fair and I think

DJ:

Thank you.

Darien:

they're

DJ:

Thank you.

Darien:

good I think we should still fight for this, but it is aggressively depressing to see Children like kids young adults actually going out there and actually trying to fight for these things that they are told to fight for in regards to like environment and protecting nature and the planet and previous generations just dismissing them and actively stopping them and actively blocking anything they could do. And that's my downer note for this thing. I can't not, I'm sorry. Keep up the good fight, but whoa it blums me out reading the pan thing now.

DJ:

That makes sense.

Darien:

Yeah.

DJ:

I find it confusing.

Darien:

Are we gonna yell up at the wilds now or do you want to yell up

DJ:

No,

Darien:

at the wilds later?

DJ:

we'll do it about later.

Darien:

Okay.

DJ:

I've just been dropping seeds.

Darien:

Yeah, foreshadowing. DJ knows

DJ:

Four

Darien:

story

DJ:

shadowing.

Darien:

structure.

Robert:

Seeds to grow for that wild, you have to describe.

Darien:

Hehehehehe

DJ:

planting seeds in our listeners heads for when I actually decide to bring it up. 

Darien:

Moving forward. That's really all Pan's saying. I want to, he really serves for Grover's arc in particular, going from an uncertainty and the one certainty in his life is he believes Pan is real and he believes he will find him and bring him back. And that will create the stability in the world again. Pan will protect the nature. And when he meets Pan finally at the end, Pan's like, nah, man. I've been gone for a long time. You really do need to tell them that I'm gone and let me go

DJ:

Mm-hmm.

Darien:

and That pivots Grover's journey into one of like a leader and of activism and not just someone who's like supports those He believes can push change but who is going to go set forth and create change himself Now do we see really the culmination of that in this series? No, we really have to wait till burning maze until we really see that But it's good. I do like it

DJ:

Yeah. And we only see it in a time of crisis with Burning Maze. It's not like the standard lobbying that Grover is trying to do. Ha ha ha.

Darien:

Yeah, he mentions talking to like nature spirits and things like that, but rarely do we get to see it. Which I guess would make sense because like Percy's not around for that and it would be weird for

DJ:

Yeah.

Darien:

Percy to be there when Grover is doing it.

DJ:

Yeah.

Darien:

But I

Robert:

Mm-hmm.

Darien:

would like to see

DJ:

Short

Darien:

like Grover

DJ:

stories.

Darien:

POV. Right! It was a Grover book.

DJ:

There was a lot of like, I mean, we had years without Grover and like, Heroes of Olympus and just like, you know, prior to it, and yeah, most of Childs of Apollo, Grover's been doing stuff, we just don't

Darien:

Mm-hmm.

DJ:

know what. And so, I think that's a good point. 

Robert:

most

Robert:

trials of Apollo.

Robert:

I mean,

Darien:

Thanks.

Robert:

sometimes that just happens. Your childhood best friend, you and them do different things in life, but at least they get that road trip at the end. And that's it. I hope you enjoyed this video. I'll see you next time. Bye. 

DJ:

It happens.

Darien:

So Pan. So Pan. God of the Wild,

Robert:

hair.

Darien:

God of Nature, God of satyrs. So as with most of our mythological figures, Pan has a bunch of different parentage background setups. I'm not going to go into a lot of them. Usually, I could boil down to it was Hermes, and then some nymph, Apollo, and someone. And then in one comedic account, Pan was born after Penelope from the Odyssey. had an orgy with like all 108 of the suitors. This one's less likely,

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

for a lot

Robert:

Sam,

Darien:

of reasons.

DJ:

very less likely.

Robert:

more is gonna have a fuckin' field day with determining which one's the father.

DJ:

Thank

Darien:

Oh

DJ:

you.

Darien:

no. In any case, what happens after Pan

DJ:

happens

Darien:

is born?

DJ:

to be the first one that they pulled out. Oh,

Darien:

Save time.

DJ:

damn it. No, you absolutely

Robert:

You

DJ:

know. They

Robert:

are

DJ:

like

Robert:

not

DJ:

open it

Robert:

the

DJ:

early.

Robert:

father.

DJ:

They check and be like, OK, so the father's going last, right?

Robert:

Haha

Darien:

Oh, you gotta build up that suspense.

DJ:

You

Darien:

Yeah,

DJ:

have

Darien:

yeah, yeah. Yeah.

DJ:

three guys. The first two are going to be not the father, OK?

Darien:

Mm-hmm. We know how to do television.

Robert:

It's

Darien:

Uh,

Robert:

just

Darien:

whatever.

Robert:

like a three hour episode of all 108 men coming

DJ:

All 108

Robert:

up and being like.

DJ:

men are not the father in its Zeus.

Darien:

So basically what happens with regards to the myth is like, Pan is born, the mother is horrified because half goat bounces. And then the God usually Hermes takes him up to Olympus and all the gods are like, cool. And then like Pan and Dionysus become best friends. That's really,

DJ:

Mm-hmm.

Darien:

that's what happens there.

DJ:

I'm

Robert:

Mm.

DJ:

just terrible.

Darien:

Now all these accounts, whatever version you particularly enjoy, were almost definitely added so much later because Pan is probably one of, not the oldest of the Greek gods.

DJ:

Mmm.

Darien:

Cause he like definitely, well, definitely, most likely derived from a proto-Indo-European God that massively predates what we view as Greek culture. And because there's a lot of evidence to suggest that, this is a common trait among all of the nature spirits that we talk about, that they likely predated this culture that we pull from when we're discussing these stories.

DJ:

Thank you.

Robert:

Mm-hmm.

DJ:

Thank you.

Darien:

And the parentage was obviously added later because they had this figure that was folded into the religious practices and you have all these other stories but where everyone else came from, well what about this guy? His

DJ:

It

Darien:

name

DJ:

typically seems

Darien:

came...

DJ:

to be the,

Darien:

Yep.

DJ:

what the fuck is the word, the process.

Darien:

Yeah, that's usually the process. The name Pan in Classical Greece came to mean all that as Pan notes in actually the Wreck Ryder books and it actually was a word that meant root or rustic symbolizing the connection with shepherds with those rustic un tamed places essentially.

DJ:

Hmm

Robert:

You heard it here, pansexuals. You're not attracted to everyone, you're attracted to roots. ..

Darien:

or you've got the just peak rustic hospitality.

DJ:

Absolutely.

Robert:

Exactly. Either or.

Darien:

the idea that Pan is much older because it aligns with the idea of him giving Artemis her hunting dogs and teaching Apollo the gift of prophecy. I like cool family, not biological uncle, but friend of the family uncle Pan.

Robert:

Hmm.

DJ:

Yeah.

Darien:

With the twins, I just find that very charming. That's just

DJ:

That's

Darien:

me though.

DJ:

fair. That's a lot of fun.

Darien:

There's also an account of Pan hating Zeus in the fight against Typhon. Essentially, Zeus gets captured by a dragon or some sort of beast.

DJ:

See, that's why they were struggling

Darien:

Mm-hmm

DJ:

in last Olympian. Pan wasn't there.

Darien:

Exactly,

Robert:

Thank you. Thank you.

Darien:

exactly. He is able to use Pan uses the, as we see Grover use in the battle labyrinth, that panic, that battle cry essentially that sends their enemies running, which is something Pan actually just usually did if somebody will come up during his midday nap.

DJ:

it's off.

Robert:

Hmm

Darien:

Yeah. But did help when turn the battle against the Titans this

Robert:

Mm.

Darien:

one time. So I say Pan did that. This is a good time to mention just this aspect that I read about in a bunch of different places and could not get a grasp on like what it meant. And that's like the mini versions of Pan or this idea that Pan could separate himself into like multiple aspects of Pan. So you had a bunch of pans or maybe sometimes they were just his son or maybe sometimes they were just figures that were similar to Pan that later on they decided were a pan. So in that story about pan using panic to like help Zeus in the battle against Typhon, that was actually a G in pan who was essentially just all goat, all goat, all pan, just not

Robert:

Full

Darien:

half

Robert:

go.

Darien:

human, just a full, yeah Robert thank you, full goats and is associated with the constellation of Capricorn. Yes? Yes, Capricorn.

Robert:

I believe so.

DJ:

Nice.

Darien:

For reasons, and it's, and I couldn't. I couldn't. And it's just this bizarre thing that I couldn't understand what it meant in a storytelling tradition or what we are supposed to interpret it as regarding like folklore storytelling and it just... Why? Why do we think this? Why do I identify? I don't know! I had To mention it because it drove me just up a wall and I don't understand it, but here we are.

Robert:

let's just say pan is as pan needs to be.

Darien:

like that. Pan, as you can see at this point, wasn't involved in like a lot of stories. He was kind of like one of those gods that was worshiped, had a lot of temples. Well, not like proper temples. His like sacred spaces were obviously like paces in nature. He did have a couple temples and like shrines and what have you, but he's not like a Zeus or a Hermes or an Apollo running around and getting like tons of tales. So a lot of what we read I believe we would call him sexcapades?

DJ:

Yeah, probably, I wouldn't doubt it.

Darien:

Then I just, you know, didn't feel the need to dive into them super much because they're also all very rapey. And I don't love them, so we don't

Robert:

We

Darien:

need

Robert:

don't

Darien:

to dive

Robert:

love

Darien:

into

Robert:

that.

Darien:

that. That's not what

Robert:

No.

Darien:

the episode's about today. But Robert, I understand that you, as mentioned earlier, have a favorite pan myth that I don't have written down. Please share.

Robert:

I did quickly look through the notes again in case you did mention it. As far as I can tell you did not. Yes, you did not. It is about the time Pan and Apollo had a fucking instrument competition. Basically what had happened is that Pan, he was a great musician and he was boasting about how his pipes were great and Apollo heard him and he's like, yeah, fuck you, dude. Liar, liar, how do you pronounce it?

Darien:

Liar?

Robert:

Liar, me and my liar, we rock those beats. And so Pan and Apollo were like, we're gonna go to, you know who the judge of the contest was? This is my favorite part. I believe, I don't know how to pronounce it. It's like, Tomlas.

Darien:

we

Robert:

Tomolos,

Darien:

may

Robert:

Tomolos,

Darien:

be thinking

Robert:

Tomolos, Tom

Darien:

of different myths.

Robert:

No, it's probably just a different ret- it's probably a different telling. But

Darien:

Huh?

Robert:

you know who Tom Loose is?

Darien:

Um... maybe?

Robert:

He's a mountain.

Darien:

He's a what?

Robert:

He's a mountain. Pan and

Darien:

Oh, he's

Robert:

Apollo

Darien:

a mountain.

Robert:

chose

Darien:

Oh, then

Robert:

the

Darien:

no.

Robert:

mountain Tomolos

Darien:

Okay?

Robert:

to be the judge of the contest, since no one is so old and wise as the hills.

Darien:

Okay.

Robert:

Pan and

DJ:

Thank you.

Robert:

Apollo, they went before the mountain to have their battle.

DJ:

No, so,

Darien: 

Let Robert finish. 

Robert:

no, yeah, imagine walking up to a fucking mountain with your bro and being like, hey, a mountain, judge which one of us has the better beats.

Darien:

Okay, but we did discuss how there were like mountain nymphs and stuff, so like sure,

DJ:

Okay,

Darien:

why not?

DJ:

here's the thing.

Darien:

No,

DJ:

Tumulus

Darien:

not Robert finish.

DJ:

just means mound.

Robert:

Oh, it does? Okay, so

DJ:

Yeah,

Robert:

it's like

DJ:

it's

Robert:

Moon

DJ:

like

Robert:

Moon.

DJ:

a river, river, you know, shit like that.

Robert:

So just mountain, mountain.

DJ:

Yeah. 

Darien:

Desert Desert.

Robert:

Fantastic.

DJ:

Yeah

Robert:

Actually, also, our boy Midas was there also.

Darien:

Okay, that's

DJ:

Okay.

Darien:

the version I was thinking. All right,

Robert:

Yeah,

Darien:

all right, yep,

Robert:

so

Darien:

so

Robert:

Midas

Darien:

it is,

Robert:

is

Darien:

okay.

Robert:

usually always there in some way, shape, or form. But the version of the sword that I like the most is when the mountain is the church.

Darien:

Yeah, I do like this.

Robert:

And basically, they have their little, I'm just imagining the devil went down to Georgia kind of fight.

Darien:

Yes.

Robert:

Pan goes first, busts out his pipes, starts,

Darien:

Mm-hmm.

Robert:

you know, Robin Hooding that shit, and

Darien:

What?

Robert:

doesn't Robin Hood use reed pipes? Isn't that his thing? Who

Darien:

Robin

Robert:

am I thinking

Darien:

Hood?

Robert:

of? I think,

Darien:

Not Robin

Robert:

maybe.

Darien:

Hood.

Robert:

Who am I thinking of then?

Darien:

I don't know.

Robert:

There's some famous character that uses reed pipes a lot.

Darien:

in the Disney movie?

Robert:

Maybe, or maybe I'm thinking of the Robin Hood from the Shrek movie.

Darien:

Oh, you know what? You may be thinking of Robin Hood from the Shrek movie. Robin Hood.

Robert:

Amne.

Darien:

Read. Let's see. He has a whistle that he summons his merrymen.

Robert:

Close enough. All right, so pan out here, busting it on the reed pipes. Everyone likes it, cool shit. And then Apollo brings out the lyre. And you know, with his, cause he do be the god of music.

Darien:

Mm-hmm.

Robert:

So he's

Darien:

He

Robert:

strumming

Darien:

do be.

Robert:

out that lyre. He's playing, I don't know, what's like a good song that sounds great on guitar. He, no, you know, fuck that. He's playing like, he's playing free bird. He's playing free bird and it sounds so great. Everyone loves it.

Darien:

Play Free Bird!

Robert:

Everyone loves it. The mountain loves it. The saders

Darien:

Mm-hmm.

Robert:

who are watching love it. You know who doesn't love it? Midas.

Darien:

Woo-ha!

Robert:

And so Apollo goes up to Midas and he's like, hey, since you're such an ass and you don't like my music, let me give you donkey ears. Oh shit.

Darien:

Oh no, Robert has donkey ears!

Robert:

Well Pikachu ears but...

Darien:

Yeah.

Robert:

And that's the end of that story. I just really liked that myth a lot.

Darien:

I was familiar with the minus aspect. I was not familiar with the astamounten to be the judge aspect, and I also find it very delightful.

DJ:

a lot of

Robert:

You

DJ:

fun.

Robert:

just sometimes just gotta ask the mountain to be a J. It's an impartial judge. Who's the mountain gonna side with?

Darien:

Apollo apparently.

Robert:

Well, Apollo played Freebird, so.

Darien:

All right, so this is Wonderwall.

DJ:

He'd

Robert:

No,

DJ:

easily,

Robert:

oh that's better Apollo

DJ:

uh,

Robert:

would

DJ:

wander

Robert:

absolutely

DJ:

wall,

Robert:

be like

DJ:

uh, stairway to heaven. Everybody

Robert:

Stay

Darien:

Thank

Robert:

with

Darien:

you.

Robert:

the Heaven.

Darien:

Bye.

DJ:

would hear those start and be like, one, get the fuck out of here. What the fuck are you doing? Those are like easy intro. We've heard this shit a thousand times in any other lyre contest. Get outta here. 

Darien:

I have one more thing before we go into our inevitable conversation regarding the wilds. And it is the element of the, really what I think is like probably the central focus of Rick Riordan's portrayal of Pan. And it is, “The great god Pan is dead.” Now, do either of you two anything about this outside of what is said in the book or any thoughts about what this is. Any ideas?

DJ:

OK, so.

Darien:

guesses?

Robert:

My thing

DJ:

All right.

Robert:

is I've heard two different interpretations of what was said because

Darien:

Oh.

Robert:

what the satyr, and in this part that you're citing, the satyr here is the great God Pan is dead. There have been many stories I've heard where they just shortened it to Pan is dead, tell them Pan is dead and that

Darien:

Yeah.

Robert:

sort of like, and there was one story, and I was trying to find it when I was looking up stuff for this episode, one that was literally like, tell them that Panic is gone.

Darien:

Ooh.

Robert:

And I mean, all in all, they all take it the same way that the pan, the God is dead, that pan,

Darien:

Mm-hmm.

Robert:

the God is no more.

Darien:

Yeah.

Robert:

I'm also reading somewhere that I think, I don't know, maybe you explain that, but those are the other two things I know. Ahem.

Darien:

Yeah, DJ, what do you got?

Robert:

Ahem.

DJ:

I mean, just like essentially what is in the book. It's just like, I've heard it. I've heard it. I've heard the myth outside of the book, but it is just a guy sailing past and it's the God pan is dead.

Darien:

Mm-hmm.

DJ:

Right. And then anytime I think about it, I'm like, just imagine that guy turning to his friends on the ship like, OK, Nietzsche, look at this motherfucker. Are you kidding me? Ha ha ha ha.

Darien:

All right, so.

Robert:

What do you say? They're just cruising past her like, wait, what do you say? Did you hear it? No, I didn't.

DJ:

Did he say God is dead? Okay, Nietzsche, whatever.

Robert:

God

Darien:

All right.

Robert:

is dead, just walk up the sherbet like, hey guys, I'm doing it on an island, said God is dead.

DJ:

I don't know.

Darien:

Basically, so here's where we get this from. We get this from the Greek historian, Plutarch, who, nope, I wanna just set the scene for you. This dude lived, he was born 46 AD, and lived until roughly 119 AD, so that was his lifespan. Now, in his essay, which I'm not gonna try to pronounce the ancient, in the Greek, but it translates to the obsolence of oracles, he claimed that a certain incident during the reign of Tiberius, who reigned from 14 to 37 AD. So this happened minimum about 10 years before this dude was born, maximum about 30 years before he was born. 

So,translated from, here, okay, just a side note. What does that, like this essay this dude wrote about like the Oracle, it really was just like answering fewer oracles now than there were before. And essentially it's like, well, there are fewer people, so we don't need as many of them. And yet we have all these other things from it. So, he's also a star. So here's what he wrote. Oh, this aperthes was my townsman and a schoolmaster who told me that designing a voyage to Italy, he embarked himself on a vessel well laden with both goods and passengers. About the evening, the vessel was proclaimed about the aisles of Icannades, with a tie till it was carried to the Isles of Praxi, when immediately a voice was heard by most passengers. Who were then awake and taking a cup after supper, calling unto one Theimos. And that was so loud a voice as all made the company amazed. 

Which Theimos was a mariner of Egypt, whose name was scarcely known in the ship. He returned no answer to first calls, but at the third he replied, Here, here, I am the man. to him. When you arrived at Pelodes, take care to make it known that the great God Pan is dead." And it goes on to talk about how they're like, hey, this voice seems like a lot of it. What's up with that? Thamus, for his part, was resolved. If the winds permitted to sail by the place without saying a word. But if the winds ceased and they're in pseudocom, to speak and cry out as loud as he was able with what he enjoined. Being come to Pelodes, there was no wind stirring, standing on the deck with his face towards the land, uttered with a loud voice his message, saying, The great God Pan is dead.

No sooner has said, no sooner, he had no sooner said this, but they heard a dreadful noise, not only of one, but of several, who, to their thinking, groaned and lamented with a kind of astonishment. And their memory person, and there being many persons in the ship, and a count of this was soon spread over Rome, which made Tiberius the emperor sin for Theamus, and he seemed to give much heed to what he told him. and that he earnestly inquired who this pan was, and the learned men about him gave their judgments, and that it was the son of Mercury by Penelope. And so we're getting, you know, the Hermes and Penelope being the father of Pan thing. So that's the account we have. Dudes were sailing. This is like a third hand account

DJ:

Yeah.

Darien:

from Plutarch, from a guy he knew in town, of who another guy was going on a voyage to Italy, and was on the ship and saw this happen.

Robert:

Yeah, I knew a guy who knew a guy who knew a guy who knew a guy who knew a guy

Darien:

who were sailing

DJ:

I knew

Darien:

past

DJ:

a guy's

Darien:

an island.

DJ:

cousin.

Darien:

You guys, cousin who was once on a boat sailing past an island where suddenly someone from the island was calling for one of the sailors and this sailor was not well known so how did he know he was on the boat?

Robert:

Imagine just like some drunk guy on an island just being like, yo guys, Penn's dead.

DJ:

Just just yelling shit like

Darien:

Mm-hmm.

DJ:

there's a ship

Robert:

It's 10.

DJ:

Hey guys, and he just like yelling different pantheons to a new business a plus, bro Just like really going on it

Robert:

I can see the future!

Darien:

So what is oddly perplexing about this is, we jump cut to like a century after Plutarch was running around, there were still active shrines to pan throughout ancient, throughout like Greece. So like, it wasn't like people had stopped worshiping pan or like anyone in this particular like religious practice thought this.

Robert:

Hmm.

Darien:

So

DJ:

Yeah.

Darien:

what's up? Anybody got some theories as to what the hell was this?

DJ:

drunk dude on an island yelling shit. Why?

Darien:

Yeah,

DJ:

Ha ha

Darien:

that

DJ:

ha.

Darien:

was DJ's guess.

Robert:

I mean, even if Pan is dead, how does this guy know Pan is dead? Did you kill- listen, let's call my friends down at the station to interview this guy.

Darien:

Mm-hmm.

Robert:

How does he know

DJ:

We

Robert:

that

DJ:

need

Robert:

Pan

DJ:

to get

Robert:

is

DJ:

a missing

Robert:

dead?

DJ:

person on, we need to get like a murder

Darien:

Oh,

DJ:

detective on this case. Like what the fuck's

Robert:

Yeah.

DJ:

going on here? Like

Darien:

no.

DJ:

if

Darien:

This

DJ:

Pan

Darien:

is very

DJ:

is dead,

Darien:

suspicious.

DJ:

we need to figure out why.

Darien:

This is a very suspicious tip. So throughout the years there have been, or throughout the centuries I should say, there have been a lot of like, what was this all about? Like the Christians had a field day with it and

Robert:

Hmm.

Darien:

absolutely claimed that, well, pan means all. So it really meant is like, it was upon saying like all demons are dead.

DJ:

Thank you. Bye.

Robert:

Oh

Darien:

Okay.

Robert:

Christianity, you silly, silly noodle.

Darien:

So in the 19th century, a woman named Ann Catherine Emrick said that the great pan was actually a demonic epithet for Jesus Christ. And

Robert:

Hmm.

Darien:

that Famous was a watchman in the port of Nicaea who was like one of the people who like, you know, at the time of the event surrounding Christ's death and then was commissioned to spread the world and which was labeled like, they gave a telephone, they were able to completely lost the message. I've just mentioned

DJ:

Um...

Darien:

this because this one lady is the only one that ever had this theory. This came from no one else. Just her

DJ:

I've been around the Bible a couple of times, maybe not sat down and read it. I ain't never heard, even like outside of, I've never heard of Jesus referred to as pan.

Darien:

Yeah,

DJ:

As a matter of

Darien:

no,

DJ:

fact, I've

Darien:

yeah.

DJ:

only ever heard of pan used for demonic things within Christianity.

Darien:

Yeah, it was... it's not a widely supported claim.

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

Uh,

DJ:

like if

Darien:

Ms. Enrich...

DJ:

I've only ever even when like Christ died every time somebody says something about it

Darien:

Thank you.

DJ:

It's

Darien:

Thank you.

DJ:

always Christ is dead and Christ is risen right? It's

Darien:

Yeah.

DJ:

Christ.

Robert:

Hmm.

DJ:

It's not

Darien:

Yeah.

DJ:

it's not

Darien:

Well,

DJ:

pan

Darien:

translations, maybe in Greek, I don't know, but that makes it, uh, some have described a more symbolic meaning to it, suggesting that, you know, given the timeline around 30 AD, what it's saying is, you know, God Pan is the great God Pan is dead, referring to a shift in the theology with the advent of Christianity.

DJ:

Mm-hmm.

Robert:

It can't

Darien:

This is Jeff.

Robert:

be Jesus though, doesn't Jesus die when he's like 33?

Darien:

Yeah.

Robert:

In 33 AD? Three

Darien:

Yeah.

DJ:

Yeah.

Robert:

years later?

Darien:

Well, the,

DJ:

Well,

Darien:

because

DJ:

it's a rough

Darien:

the,

DJ:

estimate.

Darien:

the, the story was said to have happened during the reign of Tiberius when he ruled from 14 to 37 AD.

Robert:

You're telling me the

DJ:

So

Robert:

timeline

DJ:

there is

Robert:

of the

DJ:

a

Robert:

Bible

DJ:

time.

Robert:

is not accurate.

DJ:

No,

Darien:

I'm,

DJ:

the Ranitebeerus

Darien:

I'm sane!

DJ:

is a documented thing and she just said the times of it and when Christ died, it happens within that time. 

Robert:

Oh wait, yes, this true. I can math, it's okay.

Darien:

This explanation feels more like people's noting the timeline and just subscribing things 2,000 years later or so. Now we're going to talk about a naturalistic explanation to this thing, which is very similar to DJ's drunk guy yelling on a beach theory.

DJ:

Yeah.

Darien:

Now before we get into this, I want to say this is endorsed by our dear friend Robert Graves. So take it with all the salt in the ocean, dear listener. Every

Robert:

Hmm.

Darien:

grain of salt in the ocean. When we say that the

Robert:

too much

Darien:

I'd

Robert:

salt, that's too much

Darien:

so

Robert:

salt.

Darien:

much salt that is as much a need when you have ideas from graves. So the idea is that what the sailors actually heard were the worshipers of a god, Tammuzu, and their chance, all great Tammuzu is dead. Now who is this guy? So we're gonna skip over to Mesopotamia for a hot second. Tammuzu, Tammuzu,

DJ:

How do you fucking confuse Timuzu for Pan? PAN

Robert:

Tommuzu!

Darien:

Well, I'll get to that. So. So.

Robert:

The music was so young, he died.

Darien:

Sorry, TAMUZU, TAMUZU, not TAMUZU, sorry, that's

DJ:

Okay,

Robert:

I like to move to

Darien:

my

Robert:

move

DJ:

okay,

Robert:

your

Darien:

breath.

Robert:

sound so

DJ:

Tamus

Robert:

much better

Darien:

TAMUZU sounds so much more.

DJ:

is a little closer. At the very least, there's an ass sound in there, okay?

Darien:

Yeah, so

Robert:

Hahaha

Darien:

Tamus, I'm sorry, my brain adds letters where there aren't. So this is a Mesopotamian

Robert:

Tupuzu

Darien:

God of shepherds who's also associated with fertility and the rebirth of spring.

DJ:

Mm-hmm.

Robert:

Mm-mm.

Darien:

essentially he would die and then come back with spring resurrection. So it wouldn't be absolutely unusual for worshippers to have celebration or morning at the time of this God's death. Because

Robert:

Mm-hmm.

Darien:

the resurrection cycle,

DJ:

probably

Darien:

in

DJ:

be

Darien:

fact,

DJ:

like summer or fall depending on

Darien:

yeah.

DJ:

when places,

Darien:

In fact,

DJ:

ancient

Darien:

this,

DJ:

civilizations.

Darien:

yeah, in fact, this dude is name dropped in the Bible in Ezekiel 8:14. So he brought me to the door of the North Gate of the Lord's house. and to my dismay, many, many, and to my dismay, women were sitting there weeping for Temus. This dude was not happy that the Israelite women were participating in pagan practices.

DJ:

Yeah.

Robert:

Oof.

Darien:

Weeping. So,

DJ:

It's Christianity.

Darien:

classic. So, pardon me.

Robert:

Me and the homies hate paganism.

Darien:

So essentially, what these sailors overheard was the worship of a God have been familiar with, mistaking it for the Egypt name Thamus, and then misinterpreted it by a way of storytelling. And eventually, we get Pan is Dead, a message to Thamus.

DJ:

Yeah.

Darien:

Or it's just a fairy tale.

DJ:

Yeah. Give me a mix of all of it.

Darien:

William Hansen, who was a professor of classic studies and folklore, did demonstrate how this story is really, really simple to other stories throughout folklore traditions that are titled A Fairy Sends a Message. It is possible it never happened and

DJ:

Thank

Darien:

is

DJ:

you.

Darien:

just a similar

DJ:

my

Darien:

story

DJ:

sources

Darien:

that

DJ:

that

Darien:

got

DJ:

it

Darien:

written

DJ:

came

Darien:

down.

DJ:

to me in a dream.

Robert:

What's that meme that's been happening recently because of...

DJ:

My sources I made it the fuck up.

Darien:

Hehehehehe

Robert:

Yeah.

DJ:

Senator Armstrong from Medi-Kill Rising Revengeance. My sources

Robert:

Yeah.

DJ:

I made it the fuck up.

Robert:

My side.

Darien:

Basically.

Robert:

It's just,

DJ:

Classic.

Darien:

Not

DJ:

Nanomachine,

Darien:

to pull X.

DJ:

son.

Darien:

the last thing I have to say on the guards to the great god, Pan is dead is in the books, Pan talks about how the satyr, Lysus was the one who he gave the message to, was the one calling That was the source of the voice. 

Robert:

Hmm.

Darien:

As far as I can tell, here's another Rick Riordan OC not steal. I cannot find any evidence of a figure, a satyr named Lycis from Rheumatology, or it's just so niche that the SEO is totally buried and only The Battle of the Labyrinth quote comes up. 

Robert:

just... Rick Riordan, where did

Darien:

Mm-hmm.

Robert:

you get your sources for your mythology? My sources are I made it the fuck up.

DJ:

Absolutely.

Darien:

I ain't mad, but I mean it does explain like where did the voice come from because that's not at all question like y'all are talking like you're talking Where does the how does this voice know Pan is dead? What's up with that Pollark and Tiberius? No one questions it They're just like oh, he's been whoa who's pan. He's dead Who's that seems important and then no one's like who's this guy? Where's this voice coming from?

Robert:

Everyone

Darien:

How do

Robert:

asks

Darien:

they know

Robert:

me...

Darien:

you Famos?

DJ:

Cause it's just an island, right? There's an island over there. There's probably inhabitants and they're just yelling at ships. And then,

Robert:

Everyone asks, where did the voice come from? But my question is, where did the voice go?

DJ:

I wanna know how that voice managed to carry to a fucking ship, okay? Well,

Darien:

Right,

DJ:

I don't

Darien:

is

DJ:

think

Darien:

that common?

DJ:

audio bounces

Robert:

Even in

DJ:

off water

Robert:

like even in calm

DJ:

very effectively.

Robert:

waters, you're

DJ:

Yeah.

Robert:

Not Fucking You Need Some fucking

Robert:

lungs to shout that loud even with some calm waters

Darien:

So it's

DJ:

Hold

Darien:

got

DJ:

on.

Darien:

this magic satyr.

Robert:

Magic satyr maybe, what if Pan died and transferred Panic to the satyr

Darien:

Mm-hmm.

Robert:

and the satyr used Panic for like last time to like do a big shout, he's like, yo Pan dead, he dead. 

Darien:

Yeah? No, I buy that. Yeah, that works for me. Sure. Why not? Welcome back. So

Robert:

He dead. He needs some milk. He's dead.

DJ:

So goofy.

Darien:

This is by no means a fully comprehensive thing on anything you could ever talk about, Pan. And I also want to mention that none of our episodes are ever meant to be fully comprehensive. Like,

DJ:

No.

Darien:

they're meant to be super fun spark notes. Hey, I didn't know this, did you know this? And

DJ:

Not

Darien:

then

DJ:

at

Darien:

if

DJ:

all.

Darien:

you like that, dig into that little nugget and learn more. They're supposed to be the start of a fun journey or a moment in a fun journey. Absolutely by no means do we ever pretend to know everything about these things. Now, let's yell for 20 minutes about what the wilds mean.

DJ:

Yo,

Darien:

pop culture first.

DJ:

let's do the wilds, and then we'll work

Darien:

Thank you.

DJ:

Our way into pop

Robert:

The

DJ:

culture.

Robert:

fuck is the wild?

DJ:

Dude, okay,

Darien:

Okay,

DJ:

so

Darien:

so.

DJ:

I only realized it on this third or fourth, however many times I've been through this book now, whether it be reading or audio, I only ever realized the wilds aren't specified enough. So his definition of the wilds is land untouched by man, and he's been chilling in this cave because it's the deepest part of this really deep cave system within the New Mexico area.

Darien:

Thank you.

DJ:

Maybe

Darien:

Thank you.

DJ:

Arizona, something like that. And it's like, well, now that you guys have shown up, it's been touched by me, and so I guess I'll die. But it's like, there are parts of the Amazon jungle, Sahara Desert, there are plenty of locations on this earth. The whole ass Antarctica might as well be untouched by man. We have literally... All of mankind has agreed to be like, hey, let's not actually mess with this place. We're going to go there for scientific study, and that's it. Like, there is no settlement aside from like maybe one or two for every like, for people who

Darien:

But would

DJ:

go

Darien:

that

DJ:

there

Darien:

count

DJ:

to study.

Darien:

maybe? As soon as you get there,

DJ:

Would

Darien:

you

DJ:

it?

Darien:

have, it is not

DJ:

But it.

Darien:

untouched, it is not the wilds anymore. It has in some way been

DJ:

Then

Darien:

tamed

DJ:

the moment

Darien:

or organized.

DJ:

they set foot in that cave, that cave is no longer untouched by that logic. Then he shouldn't

Robert:

Yeah.

DJ:

have even been in the cave. Does it like, I guess, what does it really not matter as to like, I've now set foot on Antarctica. Now all of Antarctica is tainted by man.

Darien:

Think.

DJ:

Does

Robert:

I mean,

DJ:

that

Robert:

to

DJ:

make

Robert:

be

DJ:

sense?

Robert:

fair, to be fair, now that people have stepped on Antarctica, Antarctica has tainted my face.

DJ:

Is it?

Darien:

I think

Robert:

I would

Darien:

it is,

Robert:

argue.

Darien:

I think

DJ:

I

Darien:

it

DJ:

don't.

Darien:

is also. I think it's also hesitant to say that any place humans are is inherently corrupting to the wild because as you mentioned DJ there are places in like the Amazon rainforest where

Robert:

Mm.

Darien:

there are communities of human beings who have lived there for so very long

DJ:

Yeah.

Darien:

and and in other places of like and if this supposedly like pan is saying

DJ:

There's a whole

Darien:

I've been dying

DJ:

island that

Darien:

since

DJ:

hasn't like really, we're not allowed to touch because it's just a bunch of native people thrown spears

Darien:

Folks,

DJ:

at anybody who approach.

Darien:

justifiably, we have diseases that they will, they

DJ:

I mean, yeah, 100%.

Darien:

will just decimate this whole fucking bubble.

DJ:

I just like, there are definitely, there's also 95% of the ocean. And that's a lot of the ocean.

Darien:

I'd say that humans have pretty thoroughly wrecked the ocean though. Even if we haven't actually been there.

DJ:

Even the deep sea?

Darien:

I don't know man, oil spills, there's an island,

DJ:

Oil sits on top of water.

Darien:

there's a trash island, there's a trash island

DJ:

Ha ha. It's a little bit of a mess. 

Darien:

the size of Texas out there, like I don't know man. Okay, but here's the thing.

DJ:

Yeah, but it's still like,

Darien:

The oil spill is a trash island. 

DJ:

again, deep seas. There are deep sea caverns that no one's ever laid eyes on. We're really

Darien:

I

DJ:

not gonna count those as the wilds.

Darien:

So I have a theory that I don't think necessarily matches for the world Rick Riordan is presenting in terms of

DJ:

Mm-hmm.

Darien:

mythology and what have you, but makes it essentially work with a couple of pieces. Okay, so we have this element of the pan mythology, of the

Robert:

Mm-hmm.

Darien:

cry of what Paul talked about, of the great God Pan is dead. So if that's a huge part of it, you have to incorporate it somehow. And so it folds into Grover and the environmental message and what have you. And if these gods of the wild, we've established in these books that the gods are tied to their domain, specifically the Greek gods being tied to this like vague notion of the flame of Western civilization, right?

Robert:

Mm-hmm

Darien:

the Olympian specifically, but all the gods, all of these heroes and villains, mostly like monsters now, of these stories tied in this place in Greece, in this region where these stories were told and where they took place, but became Greece that became these early, like, was part of a lineage that would influence and become Western civilization and the West as we know it today.

Robert:

Hmm

Darien:

So we can't say Antarctica, places in South America, the deep sea. When we talk about what pan is God of, because if we're tying it to the West and Western civilization, he can

Robert:

Thank you. Bye.

Darien:

only be God of the wilds of Western civilization. And now I want to shout out briefly, okay DG's got his hands up, go on.

Robert:

So like the Grand Canyon question.

DJ:

I

Darien:

I would

DJ:

mean,

Darien:

say.

DJ:

we can see a lot of the Grand Canyon. So I'll accept that definition, be like, okay, maybe.

Darien:

Pan specifically is God

DJ:

I

Darien:

of the Wilds

DJ:

will

Darien:

connected

DJ:

raise

Darien:

to the West.

DJ:

you, I will raise you, all of, or not all of, a majority of Canada and Alaska.

Darien:

I, okay, so here's my next part. Here's my next part. Shout out.

DJ:

The majority of Canada and Alaska are not inhabited or populated in any way, shape or form.

Darien:

I have another part. Let me continue. Next we have, shouting out Emily from Monster Donut, who

Robert:

Hmm.

Darien:

is a classic scholar and co-host of the podcast, Monster Donut, which is very excellent. And I highly recommend, if you aren't already listening to this, I imagine if you're listening to us, you are a consumer of the General Percy Jackson podcast community. Cannot recommend there enough. I just benched their whole series so far. They just finished doing, they do one book per episode. Deep down. Anyway, I can't right now. But very good. And what I did not know that I learned from listening to to Emily and Phoebe talk is that the culture we recognize as like the Greeks that we get these stories from was not the first people that lived in this area. 

They are actually not the indigenous people of this area that became Greece. There was another people, the indigenous people, who were essentially pushed out by the civilization that came to colonize the area. And these are the people that archaeological evidence suggests were the original folks who worshiped pan at these ancient

Robert:

Hmm.

Darien:

springs and stuff. So this factors into not only is pan god of the wilds, the wilds can only be places that are not touched by we would say colonization. And so when you go to west and western civilization expanding, there is not a single place in the West that has not been touched or constructed or overhauled by the impact of colonization when we had the peoples the indigenous folks who lived in these areas in what we would say like the Wilds and I'm hesitant to be like that lived in like a harmony with nature Like I don't want to touch like that's not what I'm going for here But had systems in their civilizations in their cultures that were in response to world around them rather than what Western civilization does which is structure that to serve needs, find resources, tame the wilds essentially. What's DJ with that painting you really like? Manifest destiny. Like

DJ:

Manifest

Darien:

that's...

DJ:

destiny. Yeah.

Darien:

DJ just likes the painting. I'm not saying he's a huge fan of all of that but the painting is pretty rad. And

DJ:

fan

Darien:

so

DJ:

of

Darien:

I

DJ:

all

Darien:

would

DJ:

of

Darien:

say

DJ:

it

Darien:

like

DJ:

but anyway.

Darien:

even in you would say like those the great frontier of like Alaska or Canada those places are still inherently structured and governed by the colonizing powers that have come

DJ:

I

Darien:

onto

DJ:

would.

Darien:

those land masses. Yeah, you could wander through the tundras

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

of Alaska or the forest,

DJ:

I would still

Darien:

but...

DJ:

argue that that is all land that's not touched by colonization. But that's the thing. Humans never even fucking lived up there, let alone

Darien:

Yes, they did.

DJ:

not the farthest reaches of these places. Humans did not live in every single fucking part of Alaska and Canada.

Darien:

But that's what I'm saying.

DJ:

Right?

Darien:

Those,

DJ:

Just because

Darien:

the

DJ:

we've

Darien:

windows.

DJ:

now put borders does not mean we've colonized, I

Darien:

I

DJ:

would

Darien:

think

DJ:

argue.

Darien:

I it does

DJ:

I would

Darien:

that

DJ:

not...

Darien:

is exactly what it means

DJ:

No, I would argue Given fact that what 70 to 90% of all Canadians live so close to you, United States border, it's like me driving to Montana, right? They live that close, that much of the population. You're really going to tell me that like these thousands of miles, square miles have been in some way touched by human. No.

Darien:

Yes, yes,

DJ:

No,

Darien:

I am going to say that. I'm absolutely

DJ:

that's

Darien:

going

DJ:

fucking

Darien:

to say that.

DJ:

insane.

Darien:

It's been tracked and outlined and documented and highways go through it. And there are borders and barriers

DJ:

I

Darien:

and

DJ:

will

Darien:

laws

DJ:

pull up

Darien:

that

DJ:

a highway

Darien:

govern

DJ:

map

Darien:

it.

DJ:

of Canada right fucking now if you say highways go through all of Canada

Darien:

No, DJ, it's

DJ:

Okay

Darien:

not one fucking highway that stretches across every inch of Canada. But if you have it goes through it, like it is marked like this, this notion of wild

DJ:

Would you argue?

Darien:

is

DJ:

Okay, then like, is it like,

Darien:

not as unstructured, as untamed. And I think

DJ:

that's just goofy.

Darien:

that as Western Western civilization

DJ:

I just, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Darien:

has no wilds. That is that is what I think. I think at this point, West, you could argue that there were no wilds in the Western civilization.

DJ:

I think I still think definition of wilds is just fucking stupid. Trying

Darien:

And

Robert:

Thank you.

Darien:

I

Robert:

Thank you.

DJ:

to

Darien:

agree

DJ:

define

Darien:

with you.

DJ:

this shit is so annoying and just not.

Darien:

vague, unclear,

DJ:

vague, unclear, pandering, just

Darien:

unstructured.

DJ:

whatever. I don't know. I don't know. I'm just throwing words out here that I just like, yeah, like

Darien:

Pandering?

DJ:

it's the, this way that we're trying to define it is done. I don't

Darien:

I

DJ:

know.

Darien:

don't

DJ:

I don't

Darien:

think

DJ:

know.

Robert:

hand.

DJ:

I

Darien:

pandering's

DJ:

don't know. I'm just throwing

Darien:

the right

DJ:

words

Darien:

word.

DJ:

out here that

Darien:

Pandering?

DJ:

I just like, yeah, like it's the, this way that

Robert:

Bye.

DJ:

we're trying to define it is done. 

Darien:

But we have to define it because that's what we're doing here. The thing

DJ:

It's

Darien:

is,

DJ:

ridiculous.

Darien:

how do you define the wilds? How do we make this work? This is how I think it works. I agree

Robert:

Hmm.

Darien:

that the wilds seem vague, but I also think that at

DJ:

I

Darien:

the

DJ:

still

Darien:

core, there are no wilds.

DJ:

don't.

Darien:

Robert,

DJ:

I

Darien:

what

DJ:

still

Darien:

do you think? You're the

DJ:

don't.

Darien:

guest here. We've drugged you. We've drugged. You have been drugged

Robert:

You drugged

Darien:

thoroughly.

Robert:

me? I don't know, I've been drugged. I've been drugged with the good wild.

Darien:

No. No, no, that good, good wilds.

Robert:

the good, good wild. Listen, I, if we're going by the wild is based off Western civilization wild. Yeah, there's no wild left.

DJ:

That's

Robert:

Even

DJ:

the closest thing

Robert:

if

DJ:

I will agree like yeah sure but I still like there are still parts that the west has not touched okay

Darien:

Uh-uh.

DJ:

You

Robert:

even

DJ:

can

Robert:

if it hasn't,

DJ:

say that

Robert:

even

DJ:

I will

Robert:

if you haven't

DJ:

argue

Robert:

had

DJ:

I

Robert:

like

DJ:

will argue

Robert:

people

DJ:

it

Robert:

step on certain spots, just the fact like...

DJ:

Well, no, because in the book he says this is the only place not touched by a man. And

Darien:

Yeah, and I'm saying that's not...

DJ:

It's a cave in America. It's...

Darien:

Yeah, but it's also, also, here's the thing. I don't think it is. Like, I think they say they're in the Carl's Bad Caverns. I don't think they are. Like, I think we've walked into a magic little pocket pandemension with fucking crystals

DJ:

then he

Darien:

and

DJ:

needs

Darien:

moss

DJ:

to say

Darien:

and a woolly

DJ:

that.

Darien:

mammoth and a dodo bird and a Tasmanian tiger, like. Yeah. 

DJ:

Then that needs to be specified, and they don't need to specify the Carl's Bad Canyons in New Mexico.

Darien:

Well, that's how we get the connection of Grover getting the gift from Pan the year before. It was like this closest place. Yeah, no, it's nonsense. I agree with that. It's completely

DJ:

The way

Darien:

in the book.

DJ:

Rick

Darien:

It's

DJ:

is

Darien:

wacky

DJ:

defining

Darien:

nonsense.

DJ:

it is wacky. Like we can,

Darien:

Robert

DJ:

sure we

Darien:

was

DJ:

can define

Darien:

talking.

DJ:

it like that. I'm sorry, but I'm just, come

Darien:

No, not

DJ:

on.

Darien:

just let Robert finish.

Robert:

If it's based off of, yeah, Western civilization and the wild, I kind of do side with Darien that the majority of the wild in Western civilization has pretty much been touched and fucked up by man. I don't think Penn being like, this is the last place to be untouched by man. I don't think he means that in a literal sense of like, no one has stepped foot in this cave in thousands of years. I think it's more of a man's influence and man's pollution has not touched this cave.

Darien:

Mm-hmm. That I agree with. Yeah, I think it is more like the influence of humanity and the taming of the wilds has not reached this place yet because he created it. DJ has his hand up.

DJ:

then I would argue that Pan is never coming back in Grover's on a fucking goose chase.

Robert:

WOOOOO

Darien:

Yeah! No, DJ, after this,

DJ:

Yeah,

Darien:

Grofer isn't

DJ:

I'm

Darien:

trot-

DJ:

just,

Darien:

He's not trying to bring Pan back.

DJ:

he is, what are you talking

Darien:

No, he's

DJ:

about?

Darien:

not!

DJ:

He's like, yeah,

Darien:

No, that's-

DJ:

this is how we bring Pan back. This is, his whole goal is to

Darien:

No,

DJ:

save

Darien:

no,

DJ:

the wilds

Darien:

no, that's

DJ:

to bring

Darien:

a metaphor.

DJ:

Pan

Darien:

That's

DJ:

back.

Darien:

a- no, no, that's a metaphor. He means that, that's

DJ:

Then

Darien:

metaphorical.

DJ:

it's,

Darien:

He doesn't

DJ:

you cannot

Darien:

mean he's

DJ:

be

Darien:

actually

DJ:

metaphorical

Darien:

bringing pan-

DJ:

when there's literally Pan and he died and that's how it reads,

Robert:

Grover's

DJ:

100%.

Robert:

not

Darien:

I

Robert:

trying

Darien:

disagree.

Robert:

to use... Grover's

Darien:

I think.

Robert:

not trying

DJ:

That's

Robert:

to

DJ:

how

Robert:

use Monster

DJ:

I've thought

Robert:

Boar.

DJ:

of it for fucking 10 to 15 years whenever

Darien:

I

DJ:

I

Darien:

think

DJ:

read

Darien:

that's

DJ:

this book

Darien:

you

DJ:

the

Darien:

must,

DJ:

first time.

Darien:

I think that's you must understanding what Grover means. What he means is,

DJ:

the target demographic at

Darien:

so

DJ:

age?

Darien:

was I.

DJ:

It's no pan is the whole point of what Grover's doing is to try to bring pan back and all

Darien:

No.

DJ:

of the saders

Darien:

No,

DJ:

do that

Darien:

no, he's

DJ:

too.

Darien:

not.

DJ:

Yes. Yes

Darien:

What? Okay. No, he's not actually trying to bring Pan back.

DJ:

Then he needs to say, again, that needs to be specified

Darien:

The-

DJ:

for kids, and I was a kid, and now I've brought that into adulthood.

Darien:

Hey, I found the, well, I was a kid and I also brought my, okay, I found the thing where Niko says that he wasn't welcome by Pan. It's literally page 344 of the first edition of the American version of the book. He's talking about how he doesn't belong at camp, how he's not staying. And Percy's like, it's too dangerous and you need to train. I train with the dead, he said flatly. This camp isn't for me. There's a reason they didn't put a camp to Hades here, Percy. He's not welcome any more than he is on the Olympus. I don't belong, I have to go. I wanted to argue, but part of me knew he was right. I didn't like it, but Nico would have to find his own dark way I remember in Pan's cave how the wild god had addressed each one of us individually except Nico

DJ:

Okay,

Robert:

Yeah, so Nika's

DJ:

so then

Robert:

gotta

DJ:

it

Robert:

go his

DJ:

was

Robert:

own

DJ:

like

Robert:

way. What

DJ:

an

Robert:

about

DJ:

actual

Robert:

us? What about everything we've

DJ:

choice

Robert:

been through? Nika's

DJ:

for

Robert:

gotta go his own

DJ:

Rick,

Robert:

way. What about us? What

DJ:

bro.

Robert:

about everything we've been through? Nika's gotta go his

Darien:

Did

Robert:

own way. What about us? What about everything we've been through? Nika's gotta go his own way. What about us? What about everything we've been through?

Darien:

you I do genuinely think you're right on the whole Rick just really didn't know

DJ:

He

Darien:

what

DJ:

doesn't

Darien:

the fuck

DJ:

know

Darien:

he

DJ:

what

Darien:

was

DJ:

to do

Darien:

supposed

DJ:

with the kid.

Darien:

to do with Nico D'Angelo like you like

Robert:

Just...

DJ:

I actually 100% think that Nico wasn't Gantel maybe Mark.

Darien:

Yeah, no, I think so too.

DJ:

Right.

Darien:

I think that came later. But I don't think that's a bad thing. I think you

DJ:

No,

Darien:

can learn

DJ:

it's

Darien:

about

DJ:

not.

Darien:

your characters

DJ:

That's the thing,

Darien:

as

DJ:

right?

Darien:

you're

DJ:

It's

Darien:

writing

DJ:

not.

Darien:

them and realize, oh,

DJ:

I'm just

Darien:

I didn't know

DJ:

like...

Darien:

this about you.

DJ:

He started to nail Nico down to more when he made, like, when he came out, right? They started to, like, okay, that now they just... There's a fucking character here other than people saying he's creepy when he's not.

Robert:

Hmm.

Darien:

Oh, yeah, we went off on that on that seaweed right episode we were on or no

DJ:

Yeah.

Darien:

that was no that was friends We were on best damn camp and

DJ:

Mm-hmm.

Darien:

we're like he's not creepy. He doesn't do

DJ:

He's

Robert:

Hmm.

DJ:

just

Darien:

anything.

DJ:

hot.

Darien:

That's creepy He's just tired and like quiet.

DJ:

He's visually

Darien:

He's

DJ:

creepy,

Darien:

not a

DJ:

maybe.

Darien:

creepy. I don't even

DJ:

But

Darien:

think he's

DJ:

like.

Darien:

creepy. I think he's just like all in God He's

DJ:

He's gone.

Darien:

very

DJ:

Well, at the time, Goth was creepy.

Darien:

gaunt

DJ:

..

Darien:

wild. Um,

DJ:

and hot,

Darien:

no.

DJ:

but that's beside the point.

Darien:

Referring back to our scary sex and Pusa episode from the top of the fucking season DJ. Wow.

DJ:

Yeah.

Darien:

What a callback

DJ:

God, that was the start of the season. I thought that was so long ago, actually. I thought

Darien:

I know.

DJ:

that was like, I thought that was like

Robert:

That was

DJ:

early

Robert:

so long

DJ:

podcast.

Robert:

ago.

Darien:

That was so

DJ:

I thought that

Darien:

long

DJ:

was podcast

Darien:

ago.

DJ:

of Poseidon era. Ha ha ha.

Darien:

No, I was like one of the first users episodes of my guy.

DJ:

Oh,

Robert:

like

DJ:

fuck.

Robert:

homies. Last time I was here I was on pop now I'm on mom

DJ:

Yeah.

Darien:

Hey, so no, but what Grover says is how Because they're still adamant. We have to bring pan back. We have to find pan and when he says we're gonna protect the wilds That's how we bring pan back. He doesn't literally mean Resurrecting the god the god is gone. He means living in the message and the purpose That pan. Okay. This is the jesus metaphor. God damn it

DJ:

Ha ha

Robert:

Yeah,

DJ:

ha.

Robert:

now Pan just went back to the primordial, the primordial God soup.

Darien:

The soup,

DJ:

I,

Darien:

yep, to

DJ:

yeah,

Darien:

quote

DJ:

and I

Darien:

our

DJ:

get

Darien:

good,

DJ:

that,

Darien:

good

DJ:

but

Darien:

friend,

DJ:

I don't

Darien:

oh, and the soup.

DJ:

know, it's just ridiculous.

Robert:

The soup.

Darien:

But I think that's

DJ:

It's

Darien:

what

DJ:

just

Darien:

it is,

DJ:

poorly

Darien:

DJ. I think

DJ:

defined.

Darien:

it's not, I disagree, but I understand where you're coming from.

DJ:

You literally agreed with me earlier.

Darien:

It's the idea.

DJ:

That it's poorly defined.

Darien:

No, OK, sorry.

DJ:

I'm sorry.

Darien:

Oh, sorry. I thought you were talking about whether or not Gover actually literally meant bringing Pan back. The wilds are, in fact, a concept that is polarly defined

DJ:

No.

Darien:

in this series. And I think that's by design. I don't think Rick sat down and was like, I need a definition of the wilds. he's telling all of Grover and Panna what they present in this message of environmentalism, you don't really need that for that.

DJ:

Yeah.

Darien:

For the learning of you have to, you cannot look at the previous generations, you cannot look at your heroes to save you, which is really what Battle of Elaborith is about. It's like each of these characters like Tyson and

Robert:

Hmm.

Darien:

Grover and even like Annabeth, each of them in that book meets their heroes and have to acknowledge that their hero

Robert:

Thank you. Thank you.

DJ:

Thank you. Thank you.

Darien:

save them. They

Robert:

I think

Darien:

have

Robert:

also

Darien:

to

Robert:

subsequently,

Darien:

save themselves.

Robert:

subsequently while they know that their saviors can't save them, they also know they can't save their saviors

Darien:

Mm,

Robert:

or their heroes.

Darien:

that's a true one too. Like

DJ:

Except

Darien:

Tyson,

DJ:

Tyson did save his hero.

Darien:

he inspired him, but he could

DJ:

That's

Darien:

not

DJ:

saving.

Darien:

get him to come with, oh, yes, that's true, because there are elements of that. And well, so Tyson gets that. But so Grover is not able to physically bring Pan back because he can't, Pan is gone, but he can still live the message. The reason he believed in Pan so much is because Grover believes that these places are valuable, that they should be saved, that they can be saved. Now he just needs to recognize that his hero is not gonna be the one to save them. himself

DJ:

The

Darien:

and

DJ:

redwoods

Darien:

I think that's

DJ:

aren't touched by man all too much.

Darien:

okay we literally filmed the fucking Star Wars movies in the Redwoods DJ come at me againI don't think it's necessary for them to define what wilds mean for the message of the book, but if we're gonna talk about what happened to Pan and what the wilds mean, then it is wonky, and I agree with that, is wonky nonsense, we have to come up with our own definitions. Does anybody have an example of Pan in pop culture that they want to talk about?

DJ:

So I actually, while we were talking at the before the recording, I decided to watch Playful Pan from the Silly Symphony.

Darien:

I wasn't prepared for silly symphonies to come out of your mouth.

DJ:

You weren't purp- Yeah. I went to Pan and Pop of the Culture, as I

Darien:

Uh-huh.

DJ:

tend to do, and I was going

Darien:

Yep.

DJ:

through, and I'm like, I don't recognize any of these video games.

Darien:

Mm-hmm.

DJ:

I mean, I recognize them, but I've never played them, right?

Darien:

Yeah.

DJ:

So I'm like, well, what else is there? And then the first one is actually Playful Pan, Silly Symphony's cartoon from 1930.

Darien:

Hmm, how's that, DJ?

DJ:

It's actually, here's, and then like, while I was watching it, and I was just like kind of having a good time because as I'm doing it, they're obviously being in the 1930s and just like a symphony

Darien:

Mm-hmm.

DJ:

thing, they're matching movements and things to the sound. And then it just made me think of different rhythm games. And it's just about, it's a satyr, and he's roaming through just like nature, playing a

Darien:

Uh-huh.

DJ:

little pan flute. Like it's a two thing flute. I don't remember what those are called. Yeah,

Darien:

Read

DJ:

so,

Darien:

pipes. Pan

DJ:

yeah.

Darien:

pipes. Pan pipes. Pan pipes.

DJ:

Well, it's the one from, because it's two, right? And he's not playing it like this. He's playing it like

Darien:

Mm-hmm.

DJ:

that. And

Darien:

Oh, yeah, I have no idea.

DJ:

yeah, he's playing. Yeah, so it's. I don't know what it's called, but it has a name and I've been counted it before. In fact, go the distance the twisted tail.

Darien:

야!

DJ:

No, it was a two barrel flute. But he's playing

Darien:

Is

DJ:

that,

Darien:

that what

DJ:

he's

Darien:

Meg

DJ:

going through,

Darien:

played?

DJ:

yep. Yeah. Yeah.

Darien:

Oh yeah!

DJ:

So he's just having a good time playing along with like fishes and flowers. And then like we get in like a nice sequence of just like the whole forest going on and then fire shows up and starts just burning shit and it's little fire like just flames that are going around lighting shit on fire. Trees that are trying to put themselves out and they fail

Darien:

Wait,

DJ:

to

Darien:

what?

DJ:

do so

Darien:

Wait,

DJ:

so they

Darien:

what?

DJ:

fall over. Fire gets on like a wolf's tail and he's trying to put it out. up a tree and then jumps to another one and slides down. It's a little horrific if it wasn't for the Disney style.

Darien:

rubber hose

Robert:

Hmm.

Darien:

yeah okay okay

DJ:

Yeah, the rubber hose Disney style. And so this raccoon goes and runs and gets pan. And then

Darien:

No.

DJ:

pan's like, oh, shit, the forest is on fire because he's been napping.

Darien:

Oh

DJ:

And

Darien:

no,

DJ:

so he

Darien:

nap

DJ:

comes

Darien:

the napping, the midday

DJ:

and then

Darien:

nap!

DJ:

he starts playing a flute, his little flute, and the fire just starts to follow him, gets off all of the trees, just starts to follow him. And then

Darien:

Okay.

DJ:

he runs into the lake, and he's sitting there in the lake playing his flute, and all the little fire sprites are running into the lake, putting themselves out and effectively killing themselves.

Darien:

I was

DJ:

It

Darien:

hoping

Robert:

Uh-huh

DJ:

gets

Darien:

they would

DJ:

down.

Darien:

turn

DJ:

Nope.

Darien:

into water sprites or

DJ:

Nope.

Darien:

something. Oh my God.

DJ:

They just turn into steam as they go in. And then

Darien:

Okay.

DJ:

there's one that's very hesitant about it that's super

Robert:

Thank

DJ:

not

Robert:

you. Bye.

DJ:

listening to it, so he just goes and he just smacks it.

Robert:

Oof.

Darien:

Okay,

DJ:

Ha ha.

Darien:

I don't have any from pop culture to share.

Robert:

Either do I.

Darien:

I had DJ talks about Smite and in six question marks behind it. Yes, since you

DJ:

So

Darien:

talked

DJ:

he's

Darien:

about

DJ:

not

Darien:

silly

DJ:

in

Darien:

symphonies,

DJ:

Smite,

Darien:

I figured

DJ:

actually.

Darien:

he wasn't as, yep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

DJ:

And

Darien:

Yeah.

DJ:

there's

Darien:

Yeah.

DJ:

not

Darien:

Yeah.

DJ:

a

Darien:

Yeah.

DJ:

satyr.

Darien:

Yeah. 

DJ:

There

Darien:

Yeah.

DJ:

are

Darien:

Yeah.

DJ:

Saders

Darien:

Yeah. Yeah.

DJ:

in Smite,

Darien:

If it's not

DJ:

but

Darien:

pan, I don't

DJ:

it's

Darien:

want to hear about

DJ:

Saders,

Darien:

it.

DJ:

right? They're

Darien:

Yeah.

DJ:

just

Darien:

Yeah.

DJ:

chilling. They give you the speed buff. Or is that

Darien:

That's

DJ:

Centaurs?

Darien:

cool.

DJ:

I don't remember. I don't remember.

Darien:

So, I mean, my one big piece of pop culture that I've interacted with that

DJ:

Man above, that's what they give.

Darien:

has pant in it

DJ:

.. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. ..

Darien:

is the Adventure Zone podcast

DJ:

Thank you. Bye.

Darien:

because the dwarf Merrill High Church played by Clint McElroy, he is a cleric. Clint selected Pan to be his God's patron, his character's patron, because it was the one he could remember. And sometimes they deal with Pan. And it's funny because it's a D&D actual play podcast. So what it really is, is the DM Griffin, just trying to figure out, how do you be a God, when all of a sudden your player has ruled his cast a spell that lets him talk to the God, and you weren't prepared to channel this kind of energy?

DJ:

Yeah.

Darien:

And there is a very, very sweet scene Merle and Pan at the end of the story, but I can't discuss it because it's major spoilers and we'll spoil everything here, but I'm not going to spoil that. It's my favorite story of

DJ:

It's

Darien:

all

DJ:

very

Darien:

time.

DJ:

important. It's like this is one that you cannot have spoiled for you.

Darien:

I mean, you

DJ:

If

Darien:

can.

DJ:

you do, it will be spoiled.

Darien:

It'll

Robert:

Hmm.

Darien:

be different, but, uh,

DJ:

There are

Darien:

yeah,

DJ:

some things

Darien:

it's lovely.

DJ:

I'll be like, oh yeah, spoil it, I don't care. And then it'll be like, it'll have just like the same effect essentially. But sometimes it's like there's some things that I'm like, don't talk about the ending of the Adventure Zone.

Darien:

Yeah, it's lovely though, and it feels me with good, good, warm, fuzzy nature vibes. So, Robert, do you got any pan facts?

Robert:

Uh, pan facts?

Darien:

Don't say Pan's labyrinth, that's not Pan, he's just called the fawn. I checked.

Robert:

No, I was not gonna say Pan's Laiberth. Actually, I did know that Pan's Labyrinth doesn't really have anything to do with Pan. No, I don't really have any Pan Facts. I don't know. 

Darien:

No, I know it's wild, right? I think he does appear a lot, usually as a motif, but like...

Robert:

He sort of has the same vibe as Icarus,

Darien:

Yeah.

Robert:

where there's one really big story everyone knows him from, and they derive that lesson, or they derive something from that big story.

Darien:

Yes, exactly that.

DJ:

I mean.

Robert:

but in Icarus's case, it's pretty much his only story.

Darien:

is a pan at least got to do kind of other things and has more interesting elements. He's not just this archetype that poets really clung to. Though to be fair, like the neo-pagans are really, really into pan. So he's got that going for him, honestly. And with...

DJ:

Yeah.

Darien:

And

Robert:

Hmm.

DJ:

I mean, it's Peter Pan. It's based off of Pan. 

Darien:

What?

DJ:

Peter Pan is,

Robert:

I would imagine.

DJ:

I mean, loosely, sure, but he still is, right? And that's a big

Darien:

What?

DJ:

thing. Yeah. Yeah.

Robert:

I don't think Peter Pan symbolizes

Darien:

Thank

Robert:

the

Darien:

you. Thank you.

Robert:

wild, more so he symbolizes eternal youth.

DJ:

I mean, I'm sure Netherlands symbolizes the wilds.

Darien:

absolutely does not symbolize the wilds uh... they're fucking uh...

Robert:

Neverlandhas be en touched by man, so it is not the wild.

DJ:

So I can do it.

Darien:

I think we need to, like, end this episode. I think we need to get out of here.

DJ:

Thank you.

Darien:

Robert, thank you for joining us for

DJ:

Hold

Darien:

the

DJ:

on, the

Darien:

last...

DJ:

lawn mower man, pan and that, remember?

Darien:

We've talked

DJ:

Remember lawn

Darien:

about...

DJ:

mower man? We've talked about it.

Darien:

We've mentioned that before.

DJ:

I figured I’d bring it up.

Darien:

Fair. Robert, please tell our listeners where they can find you on the internet.

Robert:

Well, if you want to find me on the internet, I am the damn meme page, damn spelled, D-A-M on

Darien:

Mm-hmm.

Robert:

Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. TikTok might be dead in the water at some point in the future, and Twitter has been a shitstorm for ages. And Instagram is owned by Facebook, so that's also a shitstorm, but I'm on

Darien:

Mm-hmm.

Robert:

all three. And if you want to hear me on the podcasting world, I am a part of a once upon a time rewatch podcast It's called Entering Storybrook. Darien and I are co-hosts on that. And if you wanna just listen to some me and Darien, Darien and

Darien:

Mm-hmm.

Robert:

I co-host a Kim Possible podcast called That's a Sitch. I also at the time this drops I will have a couple of episodes out of a Heartstopper slash Alice Osman podcast.

Darien:

Yeah! I'm so excited!

Robert:

It's called the, Truman Grammar Book Club podcast. Where me and has Meg been on this show

Darien:

Yes, Meg has been on the show.

Robert:

We're

Darien:

They

Robert:

me

Darien:

were on when we

Robert:

and...

Darien:

talked about Hera. ["Hera"]

Robert:

Rye,

DJ:

Yes.

Robert:

yeah, there we go. We're me and former guest Meg Peterson.

Darien:

Hmm?

Robert:

We'll be talking about anything that Alice Osmond has ever written or drawn or said or done because we obsess over Heartstopper. 

Darien:

I'm so excited to finally read and watch Heartstopper and then listen to y'all just lose your minds. It's gonna be really fun. Links to all of those. I'm so excited to finally read and watch Heartstopper and then listen to y'all just lose your minds. It's gonna be really fun. Links to all of those. Links to all of those. Links to all of those. Links to all of those. Links to all of those. Links to all of those. Links to all

Robert:

Hmm.

Darien:

of those. Links to all of those.

Robert:

We spoil a shit out of it, so I would recommend reading and watching everything first.

Darien:

dance game plan

DJ:

Understandable.

Darien:

links to all of those will obviously be in the show notes. As we said now for some last in a season housekeeping, Robert, I hope you'll bear with us for a moment. Dear listener, as we have said, this is the end of season four.

DJ:

That

Darien:

You may

DJ:

it

Darien:

be

DJ:

is.

Darien:

asking, Hey, but what about Kronos? And I'm going to say, well, about eight months ago we thought it'd be cool for Kronos to be the start of season five. Now I don't remember why we thought that, but we're really going to commit to that plan. So that's got word. You'll get that episode with the Titans come season five. Now, when is season five coming? Because listen, if you've been with us for a while, you will be familiar with the in-between book hiatus. 

DJ:

Yep.

Darien:

It's gonna be a longer one. We'll be back on Tuesday, July 18th. And dear listener, we do hope you will please, please bear with us. We know that's a bit of a long one. If you are a listener, if you support us on Patreon, you will still be getting all of your bonus content. We will continue to post those as scheduled,still get your two bonus episodes a month. We'll get the remix episodes out. Quarterly, fucking, Quarterly muses movie night where we just talk about whatever movie. I believe the next one is definitely going to be into the Spider-Verse because at the end of the next quarter, fucking new Spider-Verse movie comes out. I'm so excited. Yeah.

DJ:

It's gonna be a lot of fun, very excited for it. Please check us out. We'd love to see you over on our Patreon.

Darien:

So, now, this is a longer hiatus than usual. So if you really miss us, hit us up on Patreon and we'll have new content for you as scheduled or if you're listening to some old episodes. Why is it so long? Okay, it's time for the announcement. We've been teasing it for a while.

DJ:

Absolutely.

Darien:

DJ, tell them. Why is this hiatus going to be longer than our previous ones?

DJ:

The size is gonna be, because this hiatus is gonna be longer because we got to prep. We're doing weekly episodes now. The

Darien:

We are coming back with weekly episodes on the main feed. That is the goal. Every Tuesday, New Meets the Mythology for you. And we

DJ:

It

Darien:

want

DJ:

has

Darien:

to be

DJ:

absolutely

Darien:

able to...

DJ:

nothing to do with the fact that this season took so. So. So.

Darien:

No, no, it didn't have us looking back. I think,

DJ:

not

Darien:

well, three

DJ:

a damn

Darien:

years we've covered

DJ:

thing.

Darien:

four books, huh? And everyone else is jumping in to talk about The Sun and the Star. Okay.

DJ:

Hey.

Darien:

No, it is something I wanted to do from the jump, but with our various schedules and being new to podcasting, we had to figure out the motion, the swing into what that was going to look like. If we could do it, I'm confident we can. And we want

DJ:

I'm

Darien:

to

DJ:

sure

Darien:

be able

DJ:

we can.

Darien:

to maintain that. We don't want to put out three episodes in a row and then be gone for months because we got burned out or fell. So we want to have a lot of time to get that buffer to record those episodes. So when we need to take weeks off unexpectedly, we can still be out there consistent for you, our listeners.

DJ:

Yes.

Darien:

We want to be there when you expect us. Now, in the meantime, we do have a couple of main feed bonus episodes that we are planning on dropping. A couple of episodes about us talking about the short stories that exist in these books that we've never discussed that DJ has never read.

DJ:

Mm-hmm. Never read him.

Darien:

that are very

DJ:

Not

Darien:

important

DJ:

a word.

Darien:

for things. So we're gonna get episodes about that. Now, where are those coming out? We don't know. Sometime between today, April 11th and July 18th. Don't unsubscribe. There will be presents for you, we promise. And we are just really excited to make this big jump. We shifted at the beginning of the season from old podcast in Moussaiden to Muses of Pathology, embracing this identity we've been building as a show for the last few years. And this is us getting to be weekly, is really a big goal of what kind of podcast we want to be, what kind of show We want to be delivering to you our wonderful listeners who make this whole thing possible like We are not just talking in the void. We know you're there and we want

DJ:

Yeah.

Darien:

to be able to give you something that is the absolute, like the culmination of the vision of the show that we want it to be. So I know summer is gonna be, it's a lot to ask, but please hang out, please wait for us. We will be back with everything we can give you, the very best of what we can do for you. The End

DJ:

Absolutely, and we are very excited to move into the future with this new jump. It's going to be a lot of fun, and thank you guys so much for joining us.

Darien:

Thanks so much for joining us Robert. We love having you. It's been an absolute delight as always

Robert:

Thank you for having me.

Darien:

And listeners, if you really miss us, we'll be on Patreon, Patreon.com/MusesOfMythology. But until then, otherwise. 

Robert:

I’ll use my meme powers to keep you relevant.

DJ:

Thank you.

Darien:

Yes,

DJ:

Thank you. 

Darien:

the best.

Robert:

Hmm.

Darien:

I'm sure we'll be on lots of other shows that'll be airing throughout

Robert:

Hmm

Darien:

the time. Make sure you're, honestly, I should get better about posting when we're on other people's shows and supporting them that way. Also, you should follow Robert on the Dammemepage because they'll post whenever anyone does anything always and it's the best way to know what's going on. Okay. So, I'm gonna go ahead and do this. I'm gonna go ahead and do this. I'm gonna go ahead and do this. I'm gonna go ahead and do this. I'm gonna go ahead and do this. I'm gonna go ahead

Robert:

Oh

Darien:

and do

Robert:

god,

Darien:

this.

Robert:

I can't be a reliable new source. I'm too tired. I'm too

Darien:

No,

Robert:

sleepy.

Darien:

that's true. That's true. No pressure. No pressure on Robert. They can tell you cool things, but no pressure on Robert. It's all up to you. So we will be back in your ears on Tuesday, July 18th to talk about The Last Olympian! And until then, don't be like Zeus.

DJ:

Don't be like Zeus.

Robert:

Don't be like Zeus.

[Outro music]

Darien: 

Muses of Mythology is created and hosted by Darien and DJ Smartt. It's edited by Darien Smartt. The show is produced by Darien and DJ Smartt as well as 

DJ: 

Tim O'Connor. The Crystal Con Man

DJ: 

Our music is "Athens Festival" by Martin Haene. And our cover art is by Audrey Miller. You can find her on Instagram @bombshellnutshellart

Darien: 

Want more Muses of Mythology? Support the show on Patreon! Just one dollar gets you exclusive bonus content. Get more at Patreon.com/MusesOfMythology.

DJ: 

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Darien: 

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DJ: 

Thanks for listening!