Story 70: Demeter, Goddess of Continental Breakfast with Erin Moynihan (Camp Half-Pod)
“Guess we know who planned the menu for this one.”
The other half of Camp Half-Pod, writer and Dolphin Girl Erin Moynihan (she/her), joins the show to reexamine Demeter’s reputation as mythology’s biggest helicopter parent.
Talking points include which godly parents actually care about their demigod children, projecting difficult parental relationships onto Demeter in the Taking of Persephone story, speculation about Demeter’s opinions of the gluten-free movement, the most unexpected puzzle game protagonist, and Darien’s disastrous expedition into a webcomic comment sections.
Get more Erin on Camp Half-Pod at https://linktr.ee/camphalfpod
Spoilers for The Trials of Apollo, Lore Olympus, Girl, Goddess, Queen, Dungeons and Daddies, and Hades
Content Warning: This episode contains mentions of and conversations about death, the afterlife, kidnapping, sexual assault, national disasters, forced marriage, cannibalism, slavery, and incest.
About Us
Muses of Mythology was created and co-hosted by Darien and DJ Smartt.
Our music is Athens Festival by Martin Haene. Our cover art is by Audrey Miller. Find her on Instagram @bombshellnutshellart
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Find us @MusesOfMyth on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. Find all of our episodes and episode transcripts at MusesOfMythology.com
TRANSCRIPT
Darien (00:01.212)
Welcome to Muse of Mythology, a podcast where we explore how ancient myths become part of modern pop culture through the lens of Rick Riordan's Percy Jackson and the Olympian series. This is story 70, Demeter. I'm your co-host and podcasting muse Darien Smart. Joining me is my co-host and brother DJ.
DJ (00:18.67)
Hello everybody. Today I am the muse of growth because we love to see everybody learning and growing.
Darien (00:26.04)
That's so good. I was really hoping you would be the muse of cereal so I could tell everybody about the Monster Mash Remix cereal I had this morning, but instead you picked something nice. All right, well, let's muse around. I'll tell you about it. Let's muse around in the garden. I can show it to you. I did, for breakfast, have four bowls of, one bowl, same milk. I just kept refilling it. So technically it was one very-
DJ (00:36.914)
Muse of cereal doesn't make any sense.
DJ (00:52.686)
And that milk, I bet that milk was awesome. Very sweet, but very good.
Darien (00:55.416)
It was delicious at the end. It was basically juice at the end of it.
DJ (01:01.486)
Hell yes.
Darien (01:06.145)
I want to go back to my other dog
DJ (01:07.43)
I am trying to see if I can find movies with Demeter in it, but I gotta say it is becoming increasingly difficult with the given fact that two months ago the last voyage of the Demeter came out.
Darien (01:20.987)
Oh no, the SCF!
Darien (01:27.092)
Oh my god, that's so funny. All right, well we'll get past it. We'll do it, it'll be great.
Darien (01:35.224)
All right, well, let's not keep everybody waiting. We have got another first time guest joining us. And actually I'm very excited because we've completed the set of guests. Today we are joined by writer and co-host of Camp Half-Blood. It's Erin Moynihan.
DJ (01:44.765)
Mm-hmm
Erin Moynihan (01:45.64)
Oh yes.
Erin Moynihan (01:53.495)
Hi, I'm Erin. Happy to be here.
Darien (01:55.376)
Yay! Happy to have you. I'm most excited that not only do we complete the set, but we did so back to back with Monisa in the last one. And then potentially Monisa again in the next one to come back and do Persephone with us. We're gonna see what happens. Oh my gosh, we're in a sandwich. Can we be an ice cream sandwich? Wonder.
DJ (01:57.13)
Welcome, welcome.
Erin Moynihan (02:03.467)
That's so exciting.
Erin Moynihan (02:09.947)
Oh my gosh. So it's a sandwich.
Erin Moynihan (02:15.915)
We're stuck. That sounds great to me.
Darien (02:22.269)
Well, Erin, do you want to tell our listeners just a little bit about you?
Erin Moynihan (02:26.779)
I would love to. Well, like y'all did a great job. Like you said, me and Monissa co-host Camp Half Pod where we go through in chronological order. We're currently on Trials of Apollo and we still will be when this comes out. And it's been great. It's been very chaotic. Yeah, and ask a lot of weird questions with regard to the books and the series. And...
Darien (02:30.939)
Oh, thank you.
Darien (02:42.132)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Darien (02:54.772)
It's so good. It's so good.
Erin Moynihan (02:56.855)
Oh, thank you. It's a fun time. It's a lot of fun. Yeah, and like you said, I'm also a writer. I have a book called Laurel Everywhere that I published almost three years ago, which is really wild. Yes. And I also write a lot of nonfiction things that I don't publicize as much because they're about my real life. But if you Google my name, you can find things.
Darien (03:08.552)
Congratulations!
DJ (03:08.659)
Nice!
Darien (03:17.652)
Oh, I'm bookmarking, Googling, doing it now. Just real quick, speaking of things that were published three years ago, as of this week, we are actually celebrating our third anniversary of being like a real podcast.
DJ (03:19.862)
Hehehehehehehehehehe
Erin Moynihan (03:23.587)
I'm sorry.
Erin Moynihan (03:35.106)
Woo!
Darien (03:36.904)
Thank you, Erin, thank you for being here. DJ, thanks for doing a podcast with me.
DJ (03:41.098)
Yeah, of course. I love being here. It's a lot of fun.
Darien (03:43.712)
It always makes me happy to hear. All right. So today, Erin is joining us to talk about Demeter. And usually I ask, Hey, why did you want to be on this episode? But actually Erin wanted to talk, come on and talk with our prescience court episode and scheduling just fell apart for that one. So, um, I would like to give you like some space here. Do you want to talk anything about dolphin or amphitrite or triton or just dolphins?
Erin Moynihan (04:00.777)
Mm-hmm.
DJ (04:01.344)
Hehehehehehe
Erin Moynihan (04:10.343)
Oh. Oh, well, my claim to that one was that I'm, I was a dolphin girl in my youth. I was, you know, like, you know how there's horse girls? I think that dolphin girls are like a little bit crazier than horse girls, but like, disguised, like the horse.
Darien (04:13.245)
since you didn't get to.
Darien (04:17.332)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (04:21.361)
Yep.
Darien (04:25.105)
Yes.
DJ (04:26.99)
There are two paths for women.
Erin Moynihan (04:28.783)
Exactly. These are actually the only two options that women have. It's dolphin and horse. It's like dolphins are like the water version. But I think that the horse girl, like you know, you know she's a horse girl at school, but the dolphin girl you don't know until you get invited over and you go into her bedroom and like my sheets were dolphins. I had like a shelf of dolphin things. So that's how I got into... Oh.
Darien (04:29.401)
Yeah
Darien (04:33.556)
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Darien (04:46.932)
And it's full of dolphin stuff!
DJ (04:54.954)
You would have loved this little toy that we had, Daring had specifically, but it was like a magnet that spun really quick and it went on like this wire up and down it. But it was a dolphin that spun around a lot.
Erin Moynihan (05:00.265)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Moynihan (05:04.639)
It was a dolphin. I would have loved it. I would have collected it.
Darien (05:06.82)
Yeah, it was just one of those like spinny toys that was on like one of the loop and you just spin it back and forth and it looked like the dolphin doing circles. Yeah, I did have that. Oh my, yes, because this is DJ also outing me as also, yeah, I was a dolphin girl. I cared not for the horses. I think I had a dolphin lamp. Like I'm vividly remembering a dolphin lamp. Yeah, mm-hmm. Yeah, the dolphin lamp, yep.
DJ (05:17.539)
You did have that!
Erin Moynihan (05:17.591)
doing circles.
Erin Moynihan (05:23.412)
You are also a dolphin girl? Oh my gosh.
DJ (05:23.83)
Mildly, very mildly a dolphin crow, 100%.
Erin Moynihan (05:30.183)
Yeah. I had a dolphin lamp. That was a thing. At that point. That was like the lamps with the little things on them. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
DJ (05:32.61)
probably at some point.
Darien (05:38.192)
Yeah, mm-hmm. Yep, yep. I think if you were a dolphin girl, you have seriously considered in your life becoming a professional mermaid. Like you've looked at the women who have done it and you just kind of wish you had that kind of courage.
Erin Moynihan (05:46.53)
Mmm.
Erin Moynihan (05:50.831)
Yeah, like you would probably still play mermaids in the pool if someone encouraged it. If someone asked. You might be the one asking, you know? Yeah.
Darien (05:55.252)
Mm-hmm, if someone asked. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yes, as like, oh, it would be so funny. Anyway, so my name is definitely Pearl. My tail is pink, yeah, mm-hmm, with just little flecks of amethyst. Because if you don't have slight jewel tones in your aesthetic, what are you doing? But we are not here to talk about the sea today.
DJ (06:05.43)
Hehehehehehe
Erin Moynihan (06:06.729)
My tail is pink.
Erin Moynihan (06:12.908)
Ooh, yeah, that's a good one.
Yeah.
Darien (06:22.66)
Unfortunately, we are here to talk about the land and Demeter. No.
Erin Moynihan (06:26.643)
And I'm excited to do Demeter because I also I have a fun fact on Demeter when well, it's about myself It's not like I'm gonna talk about myself I vote D personal connection. No, um
Darien (06:32.56)
Oh my god, please. Yes, no, I figured it was gonna be, that's why I got excited.
I'm sorry.
Erin Moynihan (06:42.519)
In sixth grade, we had to do like an ancient civilizations thing where like we all got split into four civilizations and it's interesting the ones they pick it was like Mayan, Egyptian, Greek, and Roman and I was in the Roman section. Everyone wanted Greek because of Percy Jackson. I got Roman and we all for like our final thing we had to dress up as a as a god or a figure from
Darien (06:48.029)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (06:57.53)
Okay.
Of course.
Darien (07:11.717)
Uh-huh.
Erin Moynihan (07:12.453)
I was the Roman version of Demeter, Ceres. It wasn't what I wanted. I wanted to be Athena or Aphrodite, but I got one of the last women that was left, which was Demeter, which is kind of sad for Demeter because I also, she's cool. She's so, I was trying to do research on her in pop culture and there's so little. And she's always just like, I mean, we'll probably talk about this.
Darien (07:21.114)
Uh-huh.
Darien (07:25.715)
Aww.
Darien (07:28.808)
Oh, mm-hmm. Oh, she's very cool.
Darien (07:37.11)
Mm-hmm.
DJ (07:39.406)
She's only ever referenced really, like her name is used, but it's not.
Erin Moynihan (07:42.132)
Yeah.
Darien (07:45.092)
And when she's around, there is a very specific character class that she's put into that we will discuss. But y'all, I'm going to go off on Rick Riordan in this episode, just right out the gate. All right, hey, DJ, what do you know about Demeter from the Percy Jackson books? Oh, and Erin has actually read them all, so we don't have to worry about accidentally spoiling anything.
Erin Moynihan (07:49.917)
Mm-hmm
Yeah.
Erin Moynihan (08:00.703)
I'm excited.
DJ (08:05.399)
What's up?
DJ (08:13.314)
Wonderful. If I'm being entirely honest, I only remember her just kind of bitching at Hades for a little bit. Saying like we should be uh somewhere else with these other people because they could keep us safe. And Hades like it'll be fine. Don't worry about it. God, your mother is insane for Stephanie. Just just mother-in-law things.
Erin Moynihan (08:13.647)
I have read everything, yes.
Darien (08:15.217)
Yep.
Darien (08:21.032)
Yeah.
Darien (08:28.273)
Yeah.
Darien (08:32.737)
Your eyes got so wide!
Yeah.
Yeah, I believe my notes call her, specifically in describing her role in the Percy Jackson lore, overbearing, judgy mother-in-law only talks about cereal.
Erin Moynihan (08:51.011)
Mm-hmm.
DJ (08:51.798)
Just a classic, just no mill, you know?
Erin Moynihan (08:54.95)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (08:57.128)
afraid to ask what?
DJ (08:59.426)
Just know mother-in-law, it's a Reddit thing. It's a subreddit of people who have problems with their mother-in-laws.
Darien (09:07.034)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's, Haiti's posting on it on the regular.
Erin Moynihan (09:09.495)
Hmm. Yeah, he's a mod.
DJ (09:10.2)
God
Darien (09:11.928)
Yeah. Oh, he's a mod. Yeah, it is. That's kind of it for Demeter. She shows up again briefly at the end of the Trials of Apollo series when Apollo is back among the gods and they're all talking about everything. Yeah, well, she makes some comment about like, oh, yeah.
DJ (09:14.409)
Oh no!
Erin Moynihan (09:20.579)
Mm-hmm.
DJ (09:36.382)
talking about her daughter.
Darien (09:40.736)
I vote something for Apollo and if anyone ever needs a servant, like he worked great with my daughter and Apollo's just like, well Meg, I'm sorry your mom is your mom. Which, yeah. It's disappointing. Like
DJ (09:50.402)
Yeah. Ha ha ha.
Erin Moynihan (09:57.755)
And it's interesting too that like in PJO the angle is she's like this really overbearing mom, but then she really doesn't have any influence on Meg's life in Trias of Apollo, which I guess like Persephone's a god. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Darien (10:08.146)
Mm-mm.
DJ (10:11.754)
Well, because she doesn't care about her half-blood children. Like every other god doesn't actually care about the half-blood children.
Darien (10:15.376)
Yeah, she only cares about, yeah.
Erin Moynihan (10:21.168)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (10:21.928)
Yeah, but like, at least Percy sees Poseidon. And at least, and honestly, I think Hades genuinely cares about Nico. Like for real, of all of them, I actually would argue that I think Hades is the only one who genuinely, in a true parental way, cares about Nico. And he would also, he would probably also care about Hazel in the same way if he could actually spend any time with her, but he has to just pretend she doesn't exist.
DJ (10:29.846)
He sees Poseidon. Hades does care about Niko. Yeah.
DJ (10:38.369)
Yes.
He gave him a zombie chauffeur.
Erin Moynihan (10:47.504)
Mm.
DJ (10:48.074)
Absolutely. 100%. I will agree with that.
Erin Moynihan (10:52.434)
I would argue Poseidon gets like Dad of the Year for a brace yourself note when he left that, you know? Like that was, he was really doing so much work. He really cares. Mm-hmm.
Darien (10:57.968)
Oh yeah, the bare minimum. Poseidon just given bare minimum dads a patron god, doesn't he?
DJ (11:01.73)
Good.
DJ (11:06.138)
The only reason Percy actually does get to see Poseidon is because Percy is exceptional. Not to say Meg isn't, not to say Meg isn't, but like Percy is truly exceptional among exceptionals, you know?
Erin Moynihan (11:11.739)
Yeah. Mm-hmm
Darien (11:12.617)
and Poseidon needs something from him.
Erin Moynihan (11:21.598)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (11:21.692)
This is true, and there's also like all these prophecies thrown left and right at Percy specifically, wherein the fate of said prophecy will impact the gods. And while Mega's also running around fulfilling prophecies, if Nero had succeeded, it wouldn't have actually impacted the gods. They would still be the gods. Nero would also just now... be a god? And Apollo would have been screwed over.
DJ (11:27.187)
Ugh, the poor boy.
DJ (11:32.264)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Moynihan (11:32.657)
Yeah.
Erin Moynihan (11:41.58)
No.
DJ (11:48.854)
He technically was already a god. He just would have been stronger.
Erin Moynihan (11:50.651)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it only impacts Apollo.
Darien (11:53.3)
Mm-hmm. But yeah, it, it is such a b-
DJ (11:57.886)
It does kind of affect the gods because it affects the fates. He had control over fate for a great deal of time.
Darien (12:04.012)
Yeah, that's true too. I think Zeus and the other gods kind of brushed off how bad it would have actually been for them. Or maybe they genuinely don't believe it would have mattered because Demeter doesn't even like, I mean, we know we never have it from Meg's point of view and maybe that's why, and the gods aren't allowed to interfere with Apollo and maybe that's like justification, but it, I don't know, like a dream, an omen, a gift, something, not even.
DJ (12:30.519)
something.
Darien (12:33.468)
The weapons that Meg uses aren't even from Demeter, they're from Nero and they just have Demeter symbol on them. And that is also a bummer. And yeah, all of them are hands off, but I feel like it's just specifically a, cause every other kid, like every other protagonist in these books gets to meet their parent, except for Hazel. Although she did meet Pluto that one time before she died. So actually.
DJ (12:40.501)
Yep.
Erin Moynihan (12:43.225)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Moynihan (12:58.862)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (13:03.188)
every single one of them except for Meg.
DJ (13:07.638)
Doesn't she actually meet him another time at the very end of the series? And it might have been a dream, but it might not have.
Darien (13:15.088)
She- oh, you know what? Hades does work with her in fighting the giants, but he stays underground while doing so. I think he just needs that plausible deniability of like, Hazel? No, she's dead. Yeah, no, she's definitely still in the fields of Asphodel. As far as I'm- the last time I saw her... Well, everyone- fields! Yeah. Are they ash? Are they in fire? Are they flowers? Who knows? Fields! But that's-
DJ (13:24.829)
Yeah.
Erin Moynihan (13:27.197)
Mm-hmm.
DJ (13:28.222)
As far as I'm aware, she's not a good...
DJ (13:33.314)
fields you know?
Erin Moynihan (13:33.348)
Hehehehe
Darien (13:43.26)
I will save my screaming for why I really hate. I hate a lot of the way Rick Riordan has presented the goddesses, but Demeter feels like a very specific kind of insult.
Erin Moynihan (13:51.296)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Erin Moynihan (13:59.003)
Yeah, I mean I think too because she is a fertility goddess, she's a mother goddess, which are, you know, parts of femininity that are often uh trashed off the most. Like, people often try to get away from those parts of femininity and it's sad. Yes.
Darien (14:03.635)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (14:13.401)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (14:17.946)
Mm-hmm.
DJ (14:19.435)
sad.
Darien (14:21.18)
Yeah, and it's like a response to the centuries wherein women were told that is the only thing you can embody. This is the only proper feminine. And that sucks and is bad also. But trashing on those elements of femininity and women who choose to embrace them is also not okay. Don't do that. We respect mothers here.
Erin Moynihan (14:29.964)
Yeah.
DJ (14:30.058)
It's super rough.
Erin Moynihan (14:34.625)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Moynihan (14:41.903)
Mm-hmm.
DJ (14:42.195)
Yeah.
DJ (14:46.526)
Absolutely. Cut that out.
Darien (14:47.74)
Not mine, but no, I'm cutting that, I'm cutting it. That's gonna get, that's gonna get, that's too mean, too mean, too mean. I mean, it's real, but that's too mean.
Erin Moynihan (14:47.774)
Yeah.
Darien (14:57.84)
My grandmother though, I respect my grandmother, my stepmother, I respect them both. A woman, a woman who does maternal things. Just the two. No, but I think, yeah, I think that's it. And it's also how Hera, Hestia and Demeter, despite being also the original three, like three of six Olympians and these first like Olympian goddesses.
Erin Moynihan (15:02.592)
Yeah. A woman. You respect a woman. Mm-hmm.
DJ (15:07.278)
Hehehehe
Erin Moynihan (15:08.802)
Yeah.
Darien (15:25.336)
are so cast aside in this world Rick Riordan established where the big three are Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades. And so even when we have Demeter's children, they're just so, like Meg is powerful and that's shocking.
Erin Moynihan (15:33.497)
Mmm.
DJ (15:37.835)
to the wayside.
Erin Moynihan (15:40.075)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (15:41.372)
And the fact, and it's like, oh, but she can do all these like cool Demeter things that you would think that every kid of Demeter would be able to do because that just feels normal. But she's treated as she is special and unique and extra powerful. But every single one of them should be.
DJ (15:56.414)
You'd expect Thalia to be able to fly, but you can't.
Darien (16:00.124)
That's not the same thing.
Erin Moynihan (16:00.615)
Yeah!
DJ (16:02.425)
That's not the same thing. What do you mean it's not the same thing?
Darien (16:04.272)
She can still call- Because she can still call down lightning. And I also think Thalia can't fly because she's never tried because she's afraid of heights.
DJ (16:11.694)
I mean...
Erin Moynihan (16:12.447)
Yeah, that's a good argument, yeah.
Darien (16:15.228)
We'll get more in the Hunter's book. I'm sure she'll have to fly to save Radha at some point.
DJ (16:15.274)
Maybe. How do you know that none of these demeter people tried to travel through the grass?
Darien (16:21.468)
We don't, but the way Apollo frames it is that the fact that she can shadow travel through grass and has that scary peach boy... IT'S SO GOOD!
DJ (16:24.992)
Yeah.
That is such an insane power that she can travel through the roots of like plants is an insane thing to be like, Oh, yeah, she can do this now.
Erin Moynihan (16:32.281)
Yeah.
Erin Moynihan (16:37.42)
Like.
Darien (16:39.792)
Mercy can control water, like...
DJ (16:42.422)
Percy can summon a Typhoon, yeah, granted, but like still.
Erin Moynihan (16:42.557)
I know.
Darien (16:44.368)
Yeah, these element things are insane. Again, I stand by the only one with powers that is not actually insane. Nico being able to kill people with a touch, that actually is the only thing that I'm like, yeah, that feels reasonable. It's death, it's life, it's souls, it's things that humanity is inherently connected to. Percy controls the water, and Meg can fast travel through roots.
Erin Moynihan (16:47.831)
Mm-hmm.
DJ (16:56.362)
Cause it's like, it's death, you know?
DJ (17:08.054)
Percy controls specifically H2O, and if anything is added onto that, he still has power over it.
Erin Moynihan (17:11.413)
Yeah.
Hersea blood bender.
Darien (17:14.564)
It's trippy. Uh huh.
DJ (17:17.051)
They have not touched it yet, but it's possible.
Darien (17:19.924)
Mm-hmm. So, yeah, I just...
Darien (17:27.128)
It's, listen, it's the misogyny of it. I'm just gonna say it what it is. And I'm not saying that Rick wrote this on purpose, but I am saying he was following a tradition, and that's unfortunate. A tradition that he insisted on maintaining, even in Trials of Apollo, when he was doing so much legwork to try to retcon and demonstrate his growth as a storyteller and a person who's a part of this Western civilization tradition and drawing away from that.
Erin Moynihan (17:30.741)
Yeah.
Erin Moynihan (17:37.542)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (17:56.632)
And Demeter is still... Wow, I'm sorry your mom is your mom.
Erin Moynihan (18:02.455)
Mm-hmm. It's unfortunate because it's very much, I forget what wave of feminism it is, is second or third, I don't know. But it's like, I used to know this stuff. One of the waves of feminism is very much like in response to, you know, women being like, we don't want to wear heels anymore, we don't want to wear makeup, we don't want to wear bras, which is all really great, and distancing themselves from those traditional roles of mother and from-
Darien (18:21.757)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Moynihan (18:26.595)
I don't know, housemaker, whatever the hell was put on women. But it became like in a way of shaming women who are still, who are choosing to do that. And that's what this feels like a product of, of being like, oh, she's just the silly little mother-in-law goddess who is, like none of her things are really consequential when it's like, no, to be feminism is to, yeah, to embrace everything.
Darien (18:35.166)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (18:42.479)
Mm-hmm.
DJ (18:48.674)
She controls winter. She's the winter goddess. Give her kids ice powers, dammit.
Darien (18:50.704)
Yeah.
Erin Moynihan (18:55.152)
Oh, that'd be so cool! Oh!
Darien (18:55.496)
Oh my god, give her kid ice powers!
DJ (18:58.866)
Fuck. Oh crazy. She conceived the kid during winter like they get ice powers. Hey crazy
Darien (19:00.54)
What a good idea!
Erin Moynihan (19:02.462)
Oh, that'd be so cool.
Darien (19:06.428)
DJ that's so good! Wow! Yes!
Erin Moynihan (19:08.699)
That would be so cool. That's like Elsa.
Darien (19:15.1)
Okay, okay, so let's get into why we're pissed off about the way that Demeter is so like, dismissed in the person Jackson.
DJ (19:21.482)
You guys are pissed off. I have like actually no feelings towards her.
Darien (19:24.952)
Okay, well, but you just said DJ you just said give her ice powers if maybe not pissed off but like but don't you but you but maybe not pissed off but maybe you could there we go maybe you maybe you could also your space is acknowledging that there's some potential that we're just not tapping into. yeah we've just pushed all of her on the floor Rick just pushed her to the floor. Well that's just you as a person.
Erin Moynihan (19:26.019)
DJ's just vibing.
DJ (19:29.258)
I said it'd be cool. I think it could be used more. Yeah. I acknowledge that, yeah, yeah. I'm acknowledging that there's potential that's on the floor, you know? You need to pick it up and use it, but like, I feel no real emotion over how she's portrayed.
Erin Moynihan (19:40.034)
Mm-mm.
DJ (19:52.115)
It absolutely is.
Darien (19:52.988)
That's how you consume media. This is not a this is the most less not know. It's not that you sorry
Erin Moynihan (19:53.205)
Hehehehe
DJ (19:56.85)
Unless it's like cooking based media, which is absolutely insane.
Darien (20:01.128)
Sorry, yes. I, when I said that, I just don't mean saying that DJ does not care. DJ cares so deeply and so intently about things that matter to him. Media just as often not one of those things, which is wild that we do this podcast. Three, three years.
Erin Moynihan (20:12.547)
Hmm. That is wild.
DJ (20:14.51)
I don't know, it's crazy. Three years running.
Erin Moynihan (20:17.511)
I feel like that's a good perspective to have though. Someone who's just chilling. Yeah.
Darien (20:19.832)
It really does, it really helps keep me grounded because I will fly off the handle every week. But okay, Erin, do you have anything about Demeter and mythology that you want us to just sink our claws into right out the gate? I've got a whole thing of notes, that's really just in case I wanted to reference something and not forget it. We don't have to follow that at all. We can do whatever we want here.
DJ (20:25.675)
I'm sorry.
Erin Moynihan (20:26.679)
Yeah.
Erin Moynihan (20:40.183)
Your notes sound great. I was trying to find like, cause she's so much, she's the goddess of a lot of different things, which I was reading about. And I remember knowing that at some point in my life, but she's mostly portrayed as the grain goddess in this, but it's like, like you were mentioning, she could be winter, which would be really cool. But also I'm like birth and.
Darien (20:47.505)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (20:55.909)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (21:01.16)
Very good.
Erin Moynihan (21:04.783)
health and marriage. That one's kind of kind of boring. But birth, that's so cool. Where are the midwives of the Demeter cabin?
Darien (21:05.692)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (21:09.181)
Yeah, hit or miss, hit or miss. Yeah. It's really important.
Darien (21:16.744)
Where are the midwives? I mean, yeah, probably not anywhere because no one has sex in Rick Riordan's box.
Erin Moynihan (21:22.087)
They don't... yeah. And they don't live long enough to become adults with jobs, so yeah. Sally does fuck. We have a theory that Sally...
Darien (21:26.76)
They don't live long enough jobs and
DJ (21:28.038)
I don't know what you're talking about, Sally Fox, okay?
Darien (21:30.856)
Ah ha!
Darien (21:34.151)
Oh what?
Erin Moynihan (21:35.227)
Sally's novels have got to be like trashy romance novels about Poseidon. That is our theory. She and that is why she makes bank. She's writing like yeah she's making like the Bridgerton with like but with Poseidon and they're real stories you know and she's just making bank and Percy's oblivious he has no idea what she writes he's like he goes to her launch parties and he's like oh okay there's
Darien (21:41.849)
Oh, that'd be so good!
DJ (21:41.898)
I'm just swapping out Fabio with Poseidon.
Darien (21:47.121)
Oh, the housewife! Mm-hmm. But with Poseidon.
Darien (21:55.504)
No, he's never read. He just really supports his...
DJ (21:57.527)
I don't care.
Darien (22:01.276)
He's like so proud of it. It's not that he doesn't wanna read it, it's that he cannot focus long enough to do so, and they are not in ancient Greek. But can I?
Erin Moynihan (22:05.756)
Exactly. Yeah.
DJ (22:07.734)
Mom, do you got any audio books? Not for these ones, kid. Those will be rated 18.
Darien (22:11.064)
No, not you, sorry. And he's like, no, she's like, audio book. No, no, I have, no, I don't think we do, even though she definitely does and they're in multiple languages. Can I put forth that I definitely, definitely agree Trashy Romance book and the main character is like Poseidon and you're having like Greek god stuff, but it is Poseidon if he was modeled after Paul Blophus, the most like stable supportive guy. So if Poseidon read it, he would be really confused cause he's.
Erin Moynihan (22:11.155)
Hahaha
Erin Moynihan (22:15.047)
Yeah, yeah.
Erin Moynihan (22:20.687)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, she just doesn't want him to read it.
DJ (22:33.847)
Hehehehe
Erin Moynihan (22:34.048)
Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, ooh, yeah.
DJ (22:37.154)
But where's the fun in that?
Darien (22:39.508)
Because in addition to like hot steamy romance, women... No, women also want someone who they can rely on. And you cannot rely on Poseidon. That's what makes her work so great. She's...
DJ (22:41.438)
In trashy romance novels, I don't know. Here's the thing, I understand that, but it's, I understand that, but like, let's take a look at, you know, Fabio, do you think Fabio, the guy modeled after everything, is gonna be like, in those books specifically, is stable? Or is it just a fun romance fling?
Darien (22:58.024)
The reason, but the reason that her books stand above just this traditional genre is that she's able to incorporate both.
Erin Moynihan (22:58.186)
No.
Erin Moynihan (23:02.873)
Mmm.
Erin Moynihan (23:07.27)
Mmm.
Darien (23:08.528)
And that's why she's writing a second book, because you don't get a sequel if the guy runs off at the end. I mean, you can, and now she's hooking with... Uh, well, I guess it's not. It's just her second book, isn't it?
DJ (23:08.663)
Maybe.
DJ (23:13.666)
How do we know it's a sequel?
DJ (23:19.182)
I think, yeah, they might just say it's her second book. So it could just be more trashy.
Erin Moynihan (23:20.083)
I think so. Yeah.
Darien (23:21.444)
Regardless. So.
Erin Moynihan (23:24.131)
another trashy romance novel.
Darien (23:25.636)
Good for her though, good for her though. I love that, I love that so much. So yeah, we said, so primarily Demeter is like this, like not her, that's Hestia, the like harvest and the agriculture. And that's like the big primary, almost all of her epitaphs had something to do with grain and harvest. Cause that's as important, you're in an agrarian society. DJ, what do we like here in Idaho? We love agriculture.
DJ (23:27.535)
Yeah, truly.
Erin Moynihan (23:38.541)
Mm-hmm.
DJ (23:51.078)
Agriculture. All the all the crops are so cheap. You get a five pound bag of potatoes for two bucks, man. It is the greatest thing on the planet. It's so good.
Erin Moynihan (23:51.235)
I'm gonna go to bed.
Erin Moynihan (23:58.711)
That sounds great.
Darien (23:59.052)
Mm-hmm. It's great. We have potatoes. We have corn. It's excellent agriculture
Erin Moynihan (24:04.639)
I literally, we border Idaho and potatoes are not too, five pounds is not $2, it's in, inflation.
DJ (24:11.21)
Oh, believe me, it is the best. Damn travel costs. Idaho exports every potato in the world.
Darien (24:12.943)
Mm-hmm. We go accr- inflation. We sneak across the border to get-
Erin Moynihan (24:18.071)
Hahaha
Darien (24:22.428)
That's not true! But you know what? It could be!
Erin Moynihan (24:24.555)
They were Monopoly on potatoes.
DJ (24:24.735)
It's true in my heart.
Darien (25:54.204)
But as you said, Erin, she's also the goddess of other things, including sacred law, which is like ethics and morality and the natural cycle of life and death. Yes, there are these really esoteric concepts that Demeter is also a part of.
Erin Moynihan (26:02.007)
That's so cool.
Darien (26:12.34)
Uh, before we get too far on that track though, I did forget one second. So she's worshiped as the grain mother and she's connected to like all fruits and vegetation except for beans. Because in Athens there was. Yeah. So there's, yeah, there's this guy from Athens who was worshiped there named, uh, Siamites and his name means the God of beans and the patriot of the bean market.
Erin Moynihan (26:22.687)
Oh. Who's connected to beans? Is there a bean god?
DJ (26:23.158)
Beans, dude.
Erin Moynihan (26:39.515)
someone to be like, I'm a child of the god of beans.
Darien (26:39.621)
No!
DJ (26:44.097)
Dude.
Darien (26:45.237)
I'm shocked Rick hasn't yet because doesn't that sound like it's in a Rick Riden book already? Yeah.
Erin Moynihan (26:47.211)
That would be funny. It does. There's like the one kid who's just always eating beans.
DJ (26:51.286)
Yeah, probably.
Darien (26:54.428)
Mm-hmm. And people are trying to give him green beans or something. And he's really pissed off. People don't understand the difference between a bean and a legume. Legume? Legume, yep. So she's not the goddess of beans. That's where she gets someone else is in charge of that. But Demeter.
Erin Moynihan (27:04.087)
A legume.
DJ (27:04.554)
Yeah, a legume.
Erin Moynihan (27:10.355)
Okay, it's where she draws the line, she has boundaries. Mm-hmm.
Darien (27:18.836)
I think when you think of Demeter, especially now and how she's used in pop culture, her as the mother of Persephone is like the first thing that comes to mind often. And that's very fair, especially because the second part of her name literally means mother.
The first part of her name is up for debate, etymologically speaking. There are some scholars, even from antiquity, scholars were like, what does this mean exactly? Some scholars were like, oh, well, the D-E-D-A actually means earth, and so she is Mother Earth. Another ones were like, no, absolutely not. Her name is more associated with grain and stuff, so she's like mother of grain. She's grain mother.
DJ (27:39.126)
de
Erin Moynihan (27:40.621)
Mmm.
Darien (28:02.808)
And then even more, like one theory examining like the proto-Indo-European language is like, no, this word meant house. So she is like mother of the house.
Erin Moynihan (28:02.912)
Mm.
DJ (28:13.55)
come to find out it's literally just like, there is the, so it's the mother.
Darien (28:17.396)
The- and honestly, THE mother would actually be really intense, like having this goddess who is THE mother goddess, like the Great Mother. That would be equally as like, very like a powerful figure culturally. But-
Erin Moynihan (28:18.102)
It's just a little mother.
Erin Moynihan (28:23.36)
Mm-hmm.
DJ (28:28.undefined)
Yeah.
Erin Moynihan (28:36.891)
she was in all of Heroes of Olympus? Because Gaia's whole thing is Earth Mother also. Why didn't Demeter like step up and have it out with Gaia? Okay. She's like, I only deal with grain. I won't touch anything else. Yeah.
DJ (28:45.686)
because she's grain mother in this one.
Darien (28:48.4)
That's true, we do just ha- she's the ON-
DJ (28:52.376)
I only do farming, you know.
Darien (28:53.912)
Yeah. But no, Erin, that's like a super good observation. Not good observation. Sounded weird. That's a no, but like in regards to Gaia, because there are often a lot of like, like records and examinations of like cultural practices from antiquity that suggests that she and Gaia were deeply connected. And as like she and Rhea too, in this like,
DJ (29:00.823)
Where the fuck was she in Heroes, dude?
Erin Moynihan (29:00.925)
Thank you.
Erin Moynihan (29:15.427)
Mmm.
Darien (29:20.428)
Earth goddess, the mother goddess archetype was something that like Gaia, Rhea, and Demeter all represented very heavily in these like ancient like cult mysteries of worship.
Erin Moynihan (29:22.999)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Moynihan (29:33.091)
Mm-hmm. They are all the big mommies. ..
Darien (29:35.868)
The big no, I'm not gonna know it's gonna sound might be saying that absolutely run away
Erin Moynihan (29:40.419)
Hahahaha
Darien (29:46.176)
And it's, at first I was a little worried that I'm like, oh no, I don't want this episode just to be like the taking of Persephone, because we have to save that for our Persephone episode. But I do, yes, theoretically, we'll see what happens. But I do want to like talk about that because it is important to like Demeter's like cultural perception and like her, the worship traditions around her.
Erin Moynihan (29:54.091)
Mm-hmm.
DJ (29:56.502)
Yeah. Which I assume is next, right? Yeah.
Erin Moynihan (29:57.2)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Moynihan (30:01.203)
I'm sorry.
Erin Moynihan (30:16.195)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (30:17.8)
Because having your daughter kidnapped by your brother and then finding out your other brother and your daughter's father okayed that, that's a lot to deal with. And so Demeter, when Persephone was taken, she like searched the world trying to find her. They say like nine days in some sources, but like searched and searched and couldn't find her until Hecate came to her and is like, I don't know what happened, but I heard her screaming when she was taken and I want to help you.
Erin Moynihan (30:26.795)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Moynihan (30:46.424)
Mm.
Darien (30:47.548)
And I think that's also cool that like the mother goddess and then like Hecate as like this triple goddess figure and goddess of like magic and other like feminine mysteries work together to try to find the daughter. Like I feel like there's a lot of like really good symbolism there that I'm into. And so they go to Helios and Helios is like, oh yeah, I saw what happened. Like Hades took her and Zeus said it was okay. And Demeter's so pissed, he just no longer allows things to grow. That's it, no more growing.
Erin Moynihan (30:56.343)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Moynihan (31:00.874)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Moynihan (31:05.564)
Mm-hmm.
DJ (31:16.77)
Don't blame her.
Erin Moynihan (31:17.687)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (31:18.104)
And that's kind of incredible for in she had like no power in that situation to get her daughter back. She was not consulted on having her daughter married off. And she just was essentially by the actions of Hades and Zeus told she was not important. And she said, I'm the grandmother for a reason, bitches. And so when everything is dying.
Erin Moynihan (31:35.657)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Moynihan (31:41.993)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (31:45.412)
Zeus is like, okay, Hermes, why don't you go pick up Persephone? And we'll get into what happens after that fact later. But I, I just think that's really cool. That story of a woman like Demeter with like no, essentially in the version of the story we have, who's framed as no power, reminding the men around her that I do in fact have power that you can't take away from me and you can't control.
Erin Moynihan (31:49.96)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Moynihan (31:58.53)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Moynihan (32:11.456)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I feel like I've always had a soft spot for like the Demeter perspective of that story because I remember when I did my little ancient civilization thing, like I have such a vivid memory of like sitting at my like, you know, the computer, the big computer and my parents, like office room and like googling or whatever. I think AOL kids searching what I know.
Darien (32:22.759)
Oh.
Darien (32:32.808)
Mm-hmm, the big computer.
Erin Moynihan (32:38.991)
this myth and I remember reading like about the story of her searching for her daughter everywhere and teaming up with Hakati and I just like ever I feel like because that was my first exposure to Demeter outside of Percy Jackson. I was reading Percy Jackson probably around the same time. I doubt the fifth book was out by then so she hadn't really showed up and um
Darien (33:01.225)
Mm-hmm.
DJ (33:01.336)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Moynihan (33:03.599)
Now, like when I see all these modern interpretations of like Persephone and Hades being in love, in the back of my mind I'm like, no, they stole her. Like, because that was the first version I read. I'm like, it's wrong. People are like, it's hot. And I'm like, no, they kidnapped her.
Darien (33:13.964)
Yeah, it's like, no, that's wrong. Yeah.
Darien (33:20.36)
Like, we're completely, yeah. No, it's, it's the, the taking of Persephone, I think is a very fun, balancing act, especially for our podcast where our like thesis is all these, all these adaptations have value and are, are valid in the right and also serve to keep that story alive because in telling like Lore Olympus or, or Punderworld or something like that, you're not in fact erasing.
Erin Moynihan (33:36.791)
Yeah.
Erin Moynihan (33:43.675)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (33:49.672)
the hymn to Demeter where that story is from. In fact, you're just actually amplifying it more because folks who love this story will want to know more about it. So, but it is, no, pin a minute, we gotta save it to the end. Save it to the, well, do we wanna talk about how Demeter's constantly like the biggest helicopter bomb you've ever seen? Because that really, yeah, but it's, it does, well, it kinda sucks. It's...
Erin Moynihan (33:50.153)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Moynihan (33:57.831)
Yeah.
Erin Moynihan (34:11.559)
Yeah.
DJ (34:11.666)
And it's her biggest myth, it makes sense. It sucks.
Darien (34:19.764)
It's, I think, less of an interpretation of Demeter in the myth, than it is an exploration of a storyteller's own relationship with their parents and the culture of, this is not me saying everyone who writes, like taking a Persephone adaptation in which Demeter is the most controlling helicopter parent you ever did see, had that kind of relationship with their mother, but it is in like,
Erin Moynihan (34:34.08)
Ooh.
Darien (34:50.044)
Lore Olympus, and as mentioned, Punderworld, and Girl Goddess Queen, which are all excellent. And in each of them, Persephone is unique and has her own motivations, and the Hades is a different kind of character. But in all three, Demeter is this way. She is very controlling of Persephone, on some degree dismissive of her own abilities, and hyper overprotective and afraid of the world and what it'll do to her daughter.
Erin Moynihan (34:53.914)
Mm.
Erin Moynihan (34:58.365)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (35:19.236)
And that's not necessarily in the hymn. What you have in the hymn is a mother who has a daughter and they are out picking flowers in the field and Persephone is with her friends and she is taken and the mother searches the world to try to find her. And when she discovers where she at and that she can't go and save her, she will tear the world apart.
Erin Moynihan (35:24.628)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (35:45.18)
And I do wonder, because you can't have that and also have Hades and Persephone be hashtag relationship goals.
Erin Moynihan (35:55.227)
Yeah, you have to kind of change edit that story and add more toxicity between Demeter and Persephone for that to be for you to root for Persephone and Hades to be together.
Darien (36:00.413)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (36:09.552)
Yeah, it's like they had to, in order to get the toxicity that was in like the Hades and Persephone relationship, it got transferred into the Persephone and Demeter relationship, which is kind of sad, especially where in like Persephone and Demeter together were a very important like cultural figures in ancient Greece. The together they, like when they appeared together, they represented the duality of fertility and death. And
Erin Moynihan (36:15.185)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Moynihan (36:22.392)
Go.
Erin Moynihan (36:29.475)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Moynihan (36:37.042)
Mmm.
Darien (36:38.012)
Demeter and Persephone were the central focus of one of the most widely celebrated festivals of ancient Greece. Scrolling, scrolling, I didn't think I'd get to this until later. Okay, so this festival was called Dysmosphoria, and it was a festival to Demeter and Persephone that essentially promoted fertility in both agriculture and humanity.
because both are very important when you're in ancient agrarian society.. So this was like, this was, like I said, the most widely celebrated festival throughout Greece. And I say that it means like literally widespread to the point where it is believed that it probably originated before the time of like the earliest Greek settlements from like the 11th century BCE. Because that's the only way you'd have this kernel be so widespread.
Darien (37:48.152)
if it has to be so old that all of these cultures are celebrating it, even though it was like highly secretive and was only attended by adult women. Yeah. Men were not allowed to attend and they were not allowed to know anything that went on in the festival. Like there's no, I want to go! We should bring that back. So we'll, so we don't know basically like.
Erin Moynihan (38:03.679)
I wanna go. We should bring that back. That sounds fun. Oh.
DJ (38:06.684)
Hahaha
Darien (38:16.624)
And it's also unclear whether or not, like, did all adult women attend, or was it only, like, married women or freed women? Like, who? Because the records of it were just, you didn't get to record it because it was so secretive, and it was only continued by women who had celebrated before, bringing women who were coming the first time and teaching them how it was done. So the only way, like, the only sources we have of this is a, quote, comment in the, in a Scalarian.
Erin Moynihan (38:21.905)
Mmm. Oh.
Erin Moynihan (38:25.877)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (38:43.524)
on Lucian, and Lucian was like the guy who made the comet, but he was also a satirist. And then there was Astrophenis' play called Thesmophia Azusaia, which parodies the festival, and also very clearly like in the play incorporated elements of a Dionysus festival, because that would have been the festival that the playwright would have actually been able to attend.
Erin Moynihan (38:57.655)
Hmm
DJ (39:09.492)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (39:09.68)
And so they were just like, well, I know this thing, so let's parody it, and then I'm gonna make it mostly like the festival I know because I can't go to this festival. So neither of those would be considered like the most rigorous records to accurately reflect what it was, but essentially it was a three-day long festival, and it included sacrifices to pigs, which to some scholars considered an example of like ancient Greek agrarian magic.
which I love that phrase so very much. Fasting to commemorate Demeter mourning her daughter being taken, prayers for fertility, and then also celebrating Persephone's ascent from the underworld. So this festival had it all, like was a whole cycle of like human emotion and experience. And again, a super big deal for a really long time. And...
Erin Moynihan (39:40.585)
Mm-hmm.
DJ (39:43.326)
Sound phone.
Erin Moynihan (39:48.34)
Mm.
Erin Moynihan (39:52.35)
Mm.
Darien (40:05.372)
Persephone and Demeter were also really important part of a long-lived mystery cult from the ancient era. The Eleusinian Mysteries
Erin Moynihan (40:21.979)
Mmm.
Darien (40:23.756)
And it was maybe considered derived from Mycenaean religious practices. Like that's how old this is. And it continued through Rome. Like even after the first, the Roman emperors converted to Christianity and outlawed it. Like pastoral farmers in the countryside would continue to practice a lot of these traditions because agrarian and importance. And
Yeah, it's...
It all just circles back to the simple fact that Demeter was incredibly, deeply important and influential, and that her relationship to her daughter Persephone was also very important and sacred and valued. And that's not me saying the stories that are like the taking of Persephone but retold in a way that Hades and Persephone are hashtag relationship goals are bad.
Erin Moynihan (41:06.832)
Mmm. Mm-hmm.
Erin Moynihan (41:16.96)
Hmm.
Darien (41:25.796)
Absolutely not. We will be covering the latest Lore Olympus thing. I am once again doing the review rally. You leave us a happy review, take a screenshot, send it to our Gmail and we will put you in a raffle to win a copy of Girl Goddess Queen. I will send it to you. Yes, like it's a good book. It's actually not available in North America right now. So I had to order mine internationally to get it. And it's good. Like this story is good. And there is a lot, I imagine folks...
Erin Moynihan (41:40.289)
Nice.
Erin Moynihan (41:46.716)
Oh.
DJ (41:52.695)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (41:55.092)
feel a lot of familiar, like, resonate with when Persephone and Demeter's relationship is more of a controlling parent who's trying to do what is best for their child, but in a way that is stifling to the child's own independence. I'm sure people find that very familiar. I know I do.
Erin Moynihan (42:02.264)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Moynihan (42:06.391)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Moynihan (42:13.151)
Yeah. It's interesting because that's so common in most of the... Like...
DJ (42:14.466)
Hehehehehehe
Erin Moynihan (42:19.147)
modern retellings of or tellings versions of this is like Demeter is usually portrayed as a controlling uh mother-in-law or controlling mother and so I liked your point what you said earlier about how like it being is it really in the myth or is it so much like a reflection of the of the storyteller or the author um but like it's such a common narrative too.
Darien (42:23.409)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (42:28.911)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (42:38.428)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Moynihan (42:44.755)
I'm just like, I feel like it's all like societal stuff. Like why women mothers are often told, like the mother daughter relationship is always really different than the mother son relationship. And obviously there's more than just two genders, but that's just speaking in like that in those terms. But like the way mothers are to their daughters tends to be more controlling than they are to their sons, which not always like there are many different, different families.
Darien (42:49.064)
Yeah!
Darien (42:57.844)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (43:01.682)
Yeah.
Darien (43:08.691)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Moynihan (43:15.109)
circumstances, but that's like the narratives that we see in television often, in books, and they're coming from somewhere. But it's like, women are often socialized to view their children, especially their daughters, as like an extension of themselves that they have to control, which is like, ugh. Which is what, yeah, ugh.
Darien (43:15.345)
Yeah.
Darien (43:18.961)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (43:23.046)
Yeah.
Darien (43:32.061)
Yeah.
Darien (43:36.388)
Mm-hmm, yeah, live, yeah. I definitely have had my own mother say, oh, let me live vicariously through you more than once in my life. And I'm like, mm, mm-mm. And I don't think you meet, yeah, no.
Erin Moynihan (43:43.075)
Mmm.
No, that's not, yeah, it's not why you have children if you choose to have children. It's not to like create another version of yourself. But a lot, for a lot of people maybe it is, which is the problem.
DJ (43:55.266)
Yeah.
Darien (43:55.364)
Yeah, that's, and I, maybe it is. Yeah, I think there are also definitely times where it's like, oh, the disconnect comes from, I'm like, I'm not another version of you, and that upsets you, or you're projecting that of things you went through onto me that I don't have. And that could probably bleed into when adapting, like, hey, because I think for a lot of the storytellers, it's not about Hades, it's not about Demeter, it's actually about Persephone, and viewing the underworld as an opportunity for her to...
Erin Moynihan (44:05.778)
Mmm.
Mm.
Erin Moynihan (44:21.505)
Mm-hmm
Darien (44:24.424)
find independence and strength and power, which we will definitely get into more in our Persephone episode. But in order to create the underworld as a desirable place for Persephone to be, it must mean Hades cannot be an enemy, which means how do you justify her not going back to Demeter and how does it balance?
that story of really what it comes to is like why this season's changed, except I saw some stuff that was like, maybe it's actually not about that at all, but we'll get into that later. That it's like maybe it's actually not about winter, but it's just about the dry season, like in the middle of summer, when things don't grow as well, cause there's not enough water. But cycles and things, it is a myth that explains at least the cycle and rhythm of nature and Demeter's
Erin Moynihan (45:02.559)
Mm.
Darien (45:15.74)
like intrinsic part of that and how you want to place it, like placate this goddess. Because if nothing grows, everyone dies.
Erin Moynihan (45:15.819)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Moynihan (45:27.267)
Hmm. Nice.
Darien (45:28.432)
Yeah. So it's it is.
I think I'm just gonna hold Rick Riott into the fire on this one because I like the other ones that focus on the taking of Persephone and I think those are cool stories. But Rick's over here just doing Greek mythology and Demeter's over here being like, serial! And I'm like, mmm, I see.
Erin Moynihan (45:48.631)
Mm-hmm.
DJ (45:49.346)
To be fair, her Roman name is Ceres.
Darien (45:53.404)
Yes! But she's... But also that was another goddess that got blended with her! That's not even her!
Erin Moynihan (45:54.407)
Yeah
DJ (45:55.886)
Like, that is, it's, you're right, you're right, but it's still like agricultural series. Most cereal is made from a grain of sorts. She's the grain mother. It's, I understand where you're coming from, but it's series.
Erin Moynihan (46:08.999)
I will say I thought it was funny.
Darien (46:09.04)
Listen.
Darien (46:13.12)
Yeah. Listen, it's not funny.
Erin Moynihan (46:15.251)
It's cereal. Now when I...
DJ (46:16.822)
Lore Olympus did it too, also! They got the barley, mother shit! Hahahaha!
Darien (46:19.708)
Yeah, but she has an empire! She has a business empire! And she wanted to roll up and become Queen of the Earth. And she petitioned to get to be the Mother Earth goddess. And Hades fucked her over, so yeah, my guy. Sorry, Erin, what were you saying?
Erin Moynihan (46:21.449)
Yeah.
Erin Moynihan (46:29.429)
Nice.
Erin Moynihan (46:36.879)
Oh, I was, I think it's funny. Like I'm like the critical thoughts I have about the way it's portrayed, I hold also at the same time with the fact that when I read Pete, like when I read that book, every time I've read the fifth, the last Olympian, I'm just kinda like, huh, she loves cereal. Like it's just kinda funny each time I read it. Yeah.
Darien (46:57.353)
It's not funny and I also sometimes wish Rick Riordan had like doubled down and that she's just straight up like pouring bowls of like Kellogg's Frosted Flakes and Cheerios for heart health and like Niko's out here. He's getting Wheaties
Erin Moynihan (47:12.373)
Mmm, yeah
DJ (47:14.464)
The God showing up to a meeting being like, guess we know who picked the menu for this one. And it's just bowls of like different cereal.
Darien (47:19.508)
It's a cereal ball. It's like a, it's like a morning breakfast buffet at a Holiday Inn. It's just cereal. Yeah, just cereal, there's no waffles. Ha ha ha. Yeah, no.
Erin Moynihan (47:27.363)
I'm sorry.
DJ (47:27.562)
Yeah, but it's just cereal. Like, there's not even a waffle maker over there.
Erin Moynihan (47:32.775)
There's everything's wheat, no gluten-free options. I bet you she hates the gluten-free movement.
Darien (47:35.533)
No, of course not, no. Hull.
DJ (47:39.722)
It's like I can't believe that these people are rejecting my gifts. Can you believe this shit?
Darien (47:40.867)
Mm-hmm.
And Persephone's over here that's like, I actually think I might have a gluten tolerance. When I eat whole wheat, it does upset my stomach, but I can't tell my mother that. I can't tell my mother that.
Erin Moynihan (47:44.019)
Yeah.
Erin Moynihan (47:48.294)
Hahaha
Erin Moynihan (47:53.677)
Yeah
DJ (47:56.034)
Good thing Hades is like, really accepting about this shit and actually gets the gluten-free options.
Darien (47:59.364)
Yeah, no, Demeter's coming for dinner. He sees her putting bread out. Babe, what are you doing? You're gluten intolerant. It doesn't matter. Mom's coming, mom's coming. He served the bread. I will be fine. It's not an allergy, it's just an irritation. And then Hades is like, babe, no.
Erin Moynihan (48:06.053)
Hahaha
DJ (48:06.403)
Mom's coming out. I can get through it one night. It's fine.
Erin Moynihan (48:09.835)
Yeah.
DJ (48:14.704)
That's what an allergy is.
Darien (48:16.764)
But you know, we are casting Demeter as the controlling, like, unwavering mother who's not willing to, like, make amends for her own daughter if she chooses to live outside of her. We did just talk about that, didn't we?
DJ (48:25.218)
The gods are controlling and unwavering though.
Erin Moynihan (48:28.523)
That's true. Every God sucks.
DJ (48:31.05)
Like just in general, the only God that we've seen change in this is Apollo, and that was when he was human and made another story for himself.
Darien (48:33.468)
Yes they do.
Erin Moynihan (48:36.963)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Darien (48:38.036)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that was the point of Trials of Apollo. It's almost as if the gods didn't change. And also, we need to overthrow Zeus.
DJ (48:48.338)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
Erin Moynihan (48:48.625)
Yeah.
Darien (48:52.184)
Okay, hold on. This isn't so fun. We usually don't blend in talking about the pop culture stuff until later, but this has been very, I've enjoyed that. No, I think that's really good. Yeah, I've liked this a lot, and maybe we need to consider doing that more often. Yeah, I think that was really handy, and we can circle back, but what else did I wanna talk about? Just this last handful of episodes we've done, there have been...
Erin Moynihan (48:59.699)
Oh, oops. Somehow we got there.
DJ (49:01.974)
It's just been smooth.
DJ (49:07.862)
Doing it like this? Yeah.
Darien (49:21.14)
Not a lot to work with. Yeah, I mean, there's been a lot like culturally to work with, but not a lot of stories. And that's not the case for Demeter. We talk about the taking of Persephone a lot because that one is so major in like the traditions. Obviously Persephone and Demeter and their festivals and like the mystery cults were important. But like today, yeah.
DJ (49:21.311)
Almost nothing.
Erin Moynihan (49:23.484)
I'm sorry.
Erin Moynihan (49:33.507)
Mm-hmm.
DJ (49:39.974)
It's the one that explains the seasons. Like that is always going to be one of the biggest myths in any culture.
Darien (50:47.368)
So with Demeter, she's also got just a lot of it. Demeter just did a lot of stuff, and it's great. And I think she's a great actress.
Erin Moynihan (50:47.627)
Still happening.
Erin Moynihan (50:55.892)
Mm-hmm.
DJ (50:57.324)
She's the god that they're like, okay, I don't know who to put for this part, Demeter, I guess.
Erin Moynihan (51:00.256)
Hmm.
I'm going to go.
Darien (51:03.568)
Yeah, like she was active and I just wanna talk about it. Like one time, and we get this from the Odyssey, when Calypso is pissed off that the gods are making her give back Odysseus. And she's like, the gods do this shit all the time. Like whenever a goddess finds a mortal lover she likes, they're like, no, you can't have her. Cause the story she tells is Demeter, who romanced a, who took a mortal lover.
the hero Aeasion. And while Ovid the hack claimed that Aeasion became Demeter's husband and lived to a ripe old age, Homer was like, no, actually what happened is Zeus got pissed that a goddess would be with a mortal man and killed him with a lightning bolt.
Erin Moynihan (51:49.56)
Hmm.
DJ (51:50.006)
I like Ovid's version a little more this time around.
Darien (51:53.209)
It is nicer. Hesiod later claimed that from this union Demeter gave birth to a Pultus who was the godly personification of wealth. Which I'd like to think indicates how much she actually loved that guy if her son was literally the god of wealth.
Erin Moynihan (51:54.222)
Hmm. Hehehehe.
DJ (52:11.07)
I mean, for that time, it does make sense that wealth would spring from like a, like a well found farmer. Right? Food was wealth back that was truly was
Erin Moynihan (52:20.851)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Darien (52:21.668)
Yes. Yep. Mm-hmm. Yep. There was another time when Demeter was searching for Persephone that, or sometimes the story takes place after the fact when she can't get Persephone back and she's stuck in the underworld for X amount of time.In her mourning and her grief she goes to like the mortal a mortal kingdom which one was it Crete the palace of Selleus, and she disguises an old woman and she seeks shelter there, and the king welcomes her warmly and brings her in to be a nurse to his two young sons. And Demeter is so grateful that she decides to reward the king by making one of the sons immortal, which she does through a process of feeding him ambrosia and then putting him in the fireplace over a series of nights.
Erin Moynihan (53:21.379)
Hmm
Darien (53:24.596)
The last evening she was doing this, the mother comes in, sees what's happening, is very upset by all of this, and pulls her baby out of the fire. And Demeter's like, if you had left him there, he would be immortal, but now he will die as a mortal man. And she just takes off. And I'm like, Demeter, you of all people maybe should understand the importance of letting a mother know what's going on with their child. No, she has. No, this specifically takes place.
Erin Moynihan (53:39.075)
Hmph.
DJ (53:46.518)
She hasn't had Persephone yet. Don't worry about it. Oh, then yeah, no excuses.
Erin Moynihan (53:46.851)
Mm-hmm. Oh, ha! Oh, ha.
Darien (53:55.032)
Maybe I mean granted, you know a DJ your retelling is just as valid and maybe makes a little bit more sense But that actually is exactly the earliest version of the way thesia not thesias thetis was make trying to make Achilles immortal Giving an ambrosia and putting him in a fireplace
DJ (54:16.974)
Apparently it's tried and tested. Everybody knows about it. They're just too scared to do it. It's like the Bloody Mary shit as a kid, you know? Everybody knows about it, you just don't wanna do it.
Erin Moynihan (54:18.796)
Yeah.
Darien (54:18.992)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Just.
Erin Moynihan (54:21.407)
So you're telling people to put their babies in the fire. Mm, mm, mm-hmm.
Darien (54:25.06)
If you're a goddess, not just, not just, no, you have to be a goddess. And clearly you're working with Hestie. No, no, don't, don't sound like that.
Erin Moynihan (54:30.819)
Okay, everybody throw your babies in the fire.
Erin Moynihan (54:38.487)
I'm sorry.
DJ (54:39.414)
feed him godly muffins, then just toss him in there.
Darien (54:41.896)
Feed him godly muffins! Okay, now every time we say ambrosia, I want you to picture godly muffins, dear listener.
Erin Moynihan (54:42.404)
Godly muffins.
DJ (54:50.122)
I think of like a weird blue crumble cake of sorts. So godly muffin. Like a, like really? I guess maybe like a blue cornbread, but like if you add a blue dye to cornbread, you know? I don't know. It's like, well, blue dye to cornbread, whatever color that comes up. That's the kind of color that came out.
Darien (54:55.376)
picture anything but that's just as good. Yeah.
Erin Moynihan (54:56.863)
No.
Erin Moynihan (55:00.1)
Oh, it's blue?
Erin Moynihan (55:07.948)
I picture like a little shortbread cracker. It's like you gotta break it off in my mind. Hmm. Yeah. Uh huh. A blue cornbread. A piece of cornbread. They could. I'm going to try to make a little bit of a
Darien (55:08.793)
Like a blue-green.
DJ (55:14.09)
Yeah, I mean, they do say I break off a piece of cornbread in the book, right? Or a piece of ambrosia, not cornbread.
Darien (55:19.664)
I guess I pictured more of a chocolate. Yeah.
Darien (55:26.488)
Percyjash is wrapping up like loaves of cornbread on the way to the next quest
Erin Moynihan (55:29.539)
Ha ha
DJ (55:32.572)
Damn it.
Darien (55:34.288)
All right, I got another one. And this is another example of Demeter's wrath. And it's excellent. Let me tell you about this one, y'all. Oh, I had to just, I only picked like my favorite few. There's a lot of good ones. She helps Psyche during the Eros and Psyche story. She, at one point in time, Poseidon gets pissed off because there's a tribe of people worshiping her more than him. So he floods them. It's a whole thing. But so.
Erin Moynihan (55:39.508)
Mm.
Darien (56:04.444)
So there's this king, right? And his name is...
Erosistheon, which thanks man, of course you have the worst name. So the king, and he got really into like home remodeling, like HDTV was this man's jam. And he's like, I'm going to add an expansion under my palace, just straight into the sacred grove to Demeter. So he orders his men to cut down all of these trees and they do so, except for this one massive ancient oak that has like woven the limbs into like shapes that are sacred to Demeter. And they're like, we're not touching that one.
And the king's like, if you want something done right, I'll do it myself. So he cuts down this tree, killing a dryad in the process. And in her dying breath, she curses him. And Demeter said, yes, I will gladly do that for you, my dear. And so she goes, let me find this. Okay, so she calls upon Lemos, the spirits of unrelenting and insatiable hunger to enter this man's stomach.
Erin Moynihan (56:45.68)
Hmm.
Uh oh.
DJ (56:48.343)
Yeah.
Darien (57:09.796)
And the more he ate, the hungrier he became. He eventually sells all of his possessions to buy food, but he is not able to save his hunger. Eventually he sells his own daughter into slavery to buy more food to eat. Now this girl, Mestra, now she's actually saved by Poseidon.
who was one of her former lovers. So a shockingly cool thing decided at one time. In addition to saving her, and he didn't just save her by turning her into like a sea urchin or something and dropping her to the bottom of the sea. He actually saves her by giving her the power to shape shift into any creature in order to escape whatever bonds she may find herself in. And so she goes back to her dad, who just uses her ability to keep selling her over and over again as different creatures to get more money, which at one point you gotta be like, honey.
Erin Moynihan (57:56.419)
Mmm.
Darien (58:00.272)
Your toxic home life is a problem. Maybe, and I would never say this to anybody else, maybe go live with Poseidon?
Erin Moynihan (58:00.536)
down.
Erin Moynihan (58:09.323)
Never say that no other circumstance, but yeah
Darien (58:11.368)
No, no one deserves it, but this one time is so bad at your house that maybe, uh, but no amount of food, nothing he could eat could end his hunger. And eventually he ate himself.
DJ (58:25.518)
Hmm. Yeah.
Darien (58:29.016)
There's another version that it's so hardcore, it's so metal, the thing that Demeter, the goddess of providing food and harvest, did to this man. There's another version where she does the exact same thing, except at the end of his life, she also sends a snake to torment him. And then when he dies, she turns him into a constellation, and then she also turns the snake into the constellation to torment him for all of eternity.
Erin Moynihan (58:32.579)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Moynihan (58:45.899)
Nice.
DJ (58:57.066)
Nice.
Erin Moynihan (58:57.395)
I love how petty she is.
Darien (58:58.842)
That is some goddess wrath that we love to see here.
DJ (59:03.406)
Truly, honestly.
Darien (59:06.292)
We'll just say one last time Rick really did Demeter dirty just a touch So That is all I mean again There's so many Demeter things that I'm sure listeners like are they gonna talk about this are they gonna talk about this and I'm like Gal we can't talk about everything so sorry, but of course we want to hear your favorite things So definitely hit us up, but before we start to transition DJ. Aron. Is there any Demeter stuff that?
DJ (59:09.91)
Just a touch.
Erin Moynihan (59:11.199)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
DJ (59:24.354)
There's so much.
Darien (59:34.352)
We haven't done that, that we need to just present to the masses.
DJ (59:40.202)
I don't got anything regarding mythology.
Erin Moynihan (59:40.321)
Have a good one!
Darien (59:40.328)
Shrug from DJ.
Mm-hmm.
Erin Moynihan (59:44.603)
Yeah, I don't have anything else either. I feel like I learned stuff, so... Yeah!
Darien (59:47.862)
Okay. Oh good, I'm so glad. That's what this show should be. All right, in that case, can I talk about Ice Grandma?
DJ (59:49.636)
Yeah
DJ (59:57.418)
Absolutely. Run it.
Darien (59:59.244)
Erin, have you played Hades, the game?
Erin Moynihan (01:00:01.487)
No, I haven't. I really want to. It's been on my list.
Darien (01:00:04.78)
Uh, when you have an opportunity, do so. Um, oof, this would be mild Haiti spoilers. Are you sure? Okay. So
Erin Moynihan (01:00:14.611)
I don't care. I don't, yeah, I sometimes look up spoilers to things because I'm, I don't know what's wrong with me.
Darien (01:00:22.064)
There is actual, there have been studies that show that like having a thing spoiled and then like engaging with the media actually increases a person's enjoyment of it. That's not for me. Don't ever tell me what happens in a thing, but I can understand. I also do like looking up plots to movies. I know I'm not going to watch horror movies, especially. I love reading the plots to horror movies. No one will save you.
Erin Moynihan (01:00:30.836)
Hmm.
Hmm.
DJ (01:00:39.923)
I'm sorry.
Erin Moynihan (01:00:42.546)
Hmm, nice. I- yeah.
DJ (01:00:43.39)
I can't imagine doing that. Like if I have interest in something, I'm just gonna be like, I'll eventually get to it. I don't know, add it to the list, tick.
Darien (01:00:50.977)
So in Hades, once you got the gods and stuff and Zagreus is trying to be reunited with his mother Persephone, who is no longer in the underworld. So you're like, ah, yes, but the first time you escape from the underworld, it's winter. Everything is frozen and snowed over. And if you're someone playing the Hades game, you are familiar with Greek mythology and you're over here like, wait, but if Persephone is not in the underworld.
Erin Moynihan (01:01:07.459)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (01:01:18.756)
It should be spring and summertime up here, because that's the whole thing of the myth, what's going on. And then once you escape the first time, that it's only after your first escape that one God will finally reach out to you, and it is Demeter. And she's like, I saw you out there, I'd never seen you before, but you seem to be trying to escape this wretched place, and I'd be glad to help you, because I know what it's like to try to fight against something. And so you get ice boons.
Erin Moynihan (01:01:34.915)
Hmm.
Darien (01:01:47.528)
from Ice Grandma because she has frozen the world because she does not know where Persephone is at. No one knows where Persephone is at. And it's cool.
DJ (01:01:56.834)
here is like my mind state doing that the first time. I didn't even think twice that it was ice. Like, yeah, okay, cool. It's ice, I guess that's how it is. I don't know. Hey. And then like, and then I remembered the myth and I'm like, oh yeah, done. Like after two or three runs or some shit like that.
Darien (01:02:03.644)
Really? You were just like, sure.
Erin Moynihan (01:02:08.235)
Hehehehehehe
Darien (01:02:08.432)
And she is like decked out in furs and she looks like
Yeah, I was so shocked the first time I got out and I'm like, why is it covered in ice? Where's, what do you mean she doesn't know where Persephone is? What's going on? But yeah, I love my ice grandma.
DJ (01:02:26.658)
She's fun.
Erin Moynihan (01:02:26.771)
I'm sorry.
Darien (01:02:28.08)
It's so good. Ah, if I could have McCall. I love, there's a great meme of like, oh, the, like that weird like wrestling meme with like the really strong guy and the skinny dude in the leotard. And it's like God of the underworld. It's like me with my grandma on speed dial. Because Demeter's call is one of my favorites to have.
DJ (01:02:45.846)
Hehehehehe
DJ (01:02:50.762)
We just call this good, but I'm still going to get Artemis or Aphrodite every time.
Darien (01:02:55.321)
They are very good. No, those are the most useful ones. That's the only time I've gotten out is if I've had one of their calls, because they're just, listen, you hit Hades with a charm and all of a sudden he doesn't attack you for like six seconds? Oh my God. So useful.
DJ (01:03:06.154)
Yeah, and then you can like, it charges up every like five seconds, you can hit them just repeatedly. It's great.
Darien (01:03:12.272)
Mm-hmm. Or Artemis is sending the tracking one that does this intense damage. Yeah, no, they're great. But I loved, and in this one, in Hades, it just does a great job of hashtag no incest. So the gods and the goddesses are not all children of Cronos and Rhea. The goddesses were actually daughters of a different titan. And then Persephone is not.
DJ (01:03:16.696)
A ton of them.
Erin Moynihan (01:03:26.658)
Mmm, I love that
Darien (01:03:38.84)
a child of Zeus, she's actually the child of that mortal guy we talked about earlier, who was killed by the gods and so Demeter has a lot of bitterness to it and it's also suggested like that's the reason Zagreus has red blood and can die? Because his grandfather on his mother's side was mortal.
DJ (01:03:42.955)
Hehehe
Erin Moynihan (01:03:43.158)
Mm.
Erin Moynihan (01:03:53.958)
Mmm.
DJ (01:03:55.11)
Interesting. Ah, he's a quarter mortal, I get it.
Erin Moynihan (01:04:00.355)
Hmm.
Darien (01:04:01.152)
Just a quarter. So, I really like how Demeter is done in that one. Because I think, I mean she's pissed, her daughter's gone, she doesn't know what happened. But it's also not, like you don't get the sense, well, you do find out from PersephoneLin that she's like, I did really want to get out of Olympus actually. And so it is kind of suggested that maybe there was a little bit of an overbearing relationship with Demeter.
But that does not appear to be the, it seems to be more that Persephone wasn't satisfied in Olympus and not with the relationship with her mother.
Erin Moynihan (01:04:28.611)
Mm-hmm.
DJ (01:04:36.554)
It's also, it seems to be that Persephone was more along the lines of dropped onto Hades rather than Hades wanting it.
Erin Moynihan (01:04:43.979)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (01:04:46.468)
spoilers we can't that's too much Erin's gonna play the game well also we know we can't get into Persephone and Hades of it all put a pin in that we'll circle back we'll circle back just a meter right now just a meter right now next week no it's not a 12-part daily series yet that's in December when we talk about the Christmas Carol musemus coming soon back for the holidays
DJ (01:04:47.93)
Oh, that's fair. I guess that's fair.
DJ (01:04:55.774)
for tomorrow. I said tomorrow. Next week, guys.
Erin Moynihan (01:04:59.245)
Ha ha!
DJ (01:05:05.455)
You're right. You're right. That is...
DJ (01:05:11.734)
Be ready for it. Be excited for it because you better believe I'm excited. If you want to listen to MuseMist now, go to patreon.com forward slash Museism mythology. There's a MuseMist from last year. Very proud of that one too.
Darien (01:05:23.196)
You can listen to all 12 episodes for just a dollar. Those were for everybody. They, it's really a deal, all that content.
DJ (01:05:26.542)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, Muse-mas is for everybody. It is our Christmas gift to our patrons, every single one of them.
Erin Moynihan (01:05:27.498)
It's a deal.
Darien (01:05:32.952)
Yes, it's a Christmas gift to our patrons. We say everyone. We mean our patrons. The people who gave us money.
DJ (01:05:36.778)
Patrons specifically, you will get the first episode for free though.
Darien (01:05:41.32)
That's true, we did that, okay. But this is not time for plugs. So there's Demeter in that. We've talked about Lore Olympus. Does anyone have any other, I'm gonna talk about Girl Goddess Queen again. Does anyone have any other Demeters they wanna?
DJ (01:05:43.914)
Hehehehehehe
DJ (01:05:58.242)
So I do have one because like I have plenty, you know, like she's, her name is just kind of used as like a filler for a lot of things. There's a documentary on agriculture called fields of Demeter which is, I think is kind of fun. But the one I'm bringing to the table is this like puzzle game called adventures of Megara Demeter's Catastrophe.
Darien (01:06:07.866)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (01:06:11.552)
Oh, that's very good.
Erin Moynihan (01:06:26.165)
Okay.
DJ (01:06:26.178)
Would you guys like, so there's an about this game that's about four paragraphs long, and I'm gonna go ahead and read it real quick. New time management strategy game. Join Megara during her important quest to defeat fanciful creatures, save the kitten, restore nature and destroy towns, apologize to Meta and find a way to return her grace to Hellas. Fascinating task, oh okay, that's just about the game.
Darien (01:06:26.468)
What? Is she a cat?
Erin Moynihan (01:06:37.603)
Come.
DJ (01:06:51.614)
In gratitude for a rich harvest, the residents of Hellas decided to arrange a holiday devoted to the goddess Demeter and present her with a basket full of food. Demeter could be grateful for such a tribute, but there was a hungry kitten walking in front of the temple. Having seen the basket, the kitten jumped in and devoured all the donations and left the crumbs and bones for Demeter. When Demeter saw the leftovers, she got angry at people and decided to punish them.
Erin Moynihan (01:07:05.572)
Oh
Darien (01:07:06.523)
Bye.
DJ (01:07:19.198)
All forces of nature seemed to turn against Heledians. The town started to swarm with dangerous monsters. The earth let out evil roots and underground plants. Who is that hero who can save the acute situation? Take a look at the eyes of the enraged goddess of fertility and regain Demeter's grace towards Hellas. That here is Hercules' future wife, the young Megara.
Erin Moynihan (01:07:43.281)
Oh. Yeah.
Darien (01:07:43.669)
Oh, bummer. I'm so sorry, Megara. Oh, I'm so, I, cause listen, there's a lot of Megaras that we were just picking that name. Oh man, I'm sorry, Megara. Oh no. Yes, that one. Oh no.
DJ (01:07:45.376)
Sorry Megra, what's going to happen?
Nope, it's THE Megara.
Erin Moynihan (01:07:51.139)
Hehehehe
Darien (01:07:57.512)
Wow, that uh, I was super into that up until that last choice. That's a bummer. Like, I like that they're like, oh, but Megara is more than just Hercules' wife. She also saved her city. And that's great.
Erin Moynihan (01:08:10.112)
Yeah!
Erin Moynihan (01:08:15.456)
I'm sorry.
DJ (01:08:17.826)
It probably doesn't happen in this version of Mecha.
Darien (01:08:19.912)
You know, it probably doesn't happen in this version of-
Erin Moynihan (01:08:21.683)
Yeah! This is a positive twist on it. Yeah!
Darien (01:08:25.332)
in the Disney movies, it doesn't have to happen every time.
DJ (01:08:27.883)
This has got like mobile game art style. It's not happening to this mech.
Erin Moynihan (01:08:33.906)
She'll be fine.
Darien (01:08:34.263)
Yeah. Why were they giving Demeter a bunch of meat?
DJ (01:08:39.514)
I don't know. Maybe, maybe she's like the nature witch from Dungeons and Tatty's, Erin O'Neil, in which she doesn't eat plants because she's a nature witch, she eats exclusively meat.
Darien (01:08:40.4)
I guess in that one thing they sacrifice to pigs, so.
Darien (01:08:51.216)
wasn't prepared.
Darien (01:08:58.628)
Love it, bet, absolutely. No notes, moving on.
DJ (01:09:01.73)
Hahaha!
Like, why would I eat the plants? They're like my children. This is ridiculous. Yeah. Give me a fucking steak.
Erin Moynihan (01:09:09.612)
Hahaha
Darien (01:09:12.122)
DJ, thank you for bringing that to the table. That was wild.
Erin Moynihan (01:09:13.815)
That was good.
DJ (01:09:14.166)
Of course. I thought it was a fun twist on that kind of trope too.
Darien (01:09:17.725)
Yeah, I really like that, that's funny.
See, I think someone on that team really actually does like Demeter, and is like, no, but she, you piss her off, bad things happen. Watch in my puzzle game.
Erin Moynihan (01:09:26.341)
Hmm
Erin Moynihan (01:09:30.876)
in this puzzle.
Darien (01:09:33.368)
Erin, do you have a pop culture demeter that we should discuss? It could be Laura Lempas.
Erin Moynihan (01:09:38.211)
I think so. I feel like Laura Lempas and Percy Jackson were the ones that I'm aware of.
Darien (01:09:42.756)
Yeah. I think, well, okay. So one time I made the mistake of comments of going into the comment section on a recent episode of Lore Olympus. And my comment was, uh, you know what? Demeter isn't completely wrong. And people really hated that.
DJ (01:09:43.211)
We are.
Erin Moynihan (01:09:55.971)
Oh.
Erin Moynihan (01:10:02.439)
Uh oh. Yeah.
DJ (01:10:04.755)
What episode was it? What was she doing in that specific?
Darien (01:10:06.124)
Like my, I don't remember. Oh, it was like pre-court room. Like it was pre-court, yeah. Yeah. Post, like, listen, seeing she's done recently is like, no, no. But before that, her whole wanting to like raise up Persephone and getting like being like, do your homework, stand or watch, like get all these rewards, cause she's gonna be heir to the barley mother fortune and also joined the...
DJ (01:10:10.606)
Pre-courtroom.
Erin Moynihan (01:10:27.197)
Mmm.
Darien (01:10:34.224)
to go on like eternal maidenhood and obviously this is not what per Stephanie wants but Demeter's never asked her and she's very controlling and helicopter parent but also Demeter lives in a world where gods will just shape-shift into animals and then rape young women So my point was like yeah in this world Demeter is just trying to protect her daughter And so like the thing she's doing
Erin Moynihan (01:10:50.504)
Yeah.
DJ (01:10:52.246)
Yeah.
Erin Moynihan (01:10:58.793)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (01:11:01.576)
you can't hold them to the same comparison as like what a human parent would do because she lives in a world where there are gods who just carry off young maidens. Anyway, people in the comment section really didn't like that and I had a lot of people getting mad at me because they clearly had bad relationships with their mother.
Erin Moynihan (01:11:10.69)
Yeah.
DJ (01:11:16.538)
I think if you said only exclusively Demeter's not entirely wrong, that comes off that. If you had explained it, yeah. But had you? Oh, well, it's okay. If you put it all out, I think, yeah, those guys are probably just goofy.
Erin Moynihan (01:11:17.427)
Yeah.
Darien (01:11:23.556)
No, I had explained it. Yeah, that was my thing. Yes, DJ, yeah, I loved it. Yeah, I was like, listen, this world she's living in is like, it's not great, but this world she's living in is not as super tough and she is trying to protect Persephone. Yeah, people didn't like that, which goes back to the whole like, some people really have relationships with their mothers, don't they?
Erin Moynihan (01:11:35.587)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Moynihan (01:11:39.267)
Hmm. People like things to be black and white.
DJ (01:11:40.33)
I mean, exhibit A, Darien. Pot calling the kettle black there, Darien, aren't ya? Ha ha ha.
Darien (01:11:43.088)
They do, they do. Yeah, but at least I don't attack people with their takes on mythology.
Erin Moynihan (01:11:50.464)
I'm sorry.
Darien (01:11:51.986)
It was-
DJ (01:11:52.082)
I've seen you attack people in private over there, take some mythology.
Darien (01:11:56.296)
DJ, I cannot believe that you've proven yourself untrustworthy in this moment. I cannot believe you've proven yourself. I can't believe you. You've betrayed me. I will let nothing grow ever again.
DJ (01:11:59.234)
What's up?
DJ (01:12:04.946)
I didn't name anybody specifically.
Darien (01:12:14.156)
I want to talk about Demeter's portrayal in the outstanding book Girl Goddess Queen. This is the fifth episode in a row, I think I get to talk about it, and I'm so happy.
DJ (01:12:24.398)
and it'll be six next week.
Darien (01:12:25.864)
Woo! And it'll be the big one. But in this one, we also have like helicopter parent Demeter. Very, very like, very controlling over Persephone. Like, kind of puts Laura Olympus Demeter to shame and how controlling Demeter is over Persephone. Like, don't speak unless spoken to. Young lady should only smile. You should be Demur. Like, Persephone goes by core for like the first third of this book still.
Erin Moynihan (01:12:26.822)
Hehehehehe
Erin Moynihan (01:12:42.103)
Dang.
Erin Moynihan (01:12:54.635)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (01:12:55.984)
And it is very much like trying to like keep her on the island where she's also like on Sicily where she's put all these wards and stuff to protect her and keep everyone away. So like the only person who's ever been around is like the nymphs who Demeter only kind of tolerates because when she was pregnant and went to Sicily to give birth the nymphs helped her. So she also allows them to remain on the island and be around Persephone even though she views them as a bad influence.
DJ (01:13:16.462)
Mm.
Darien
She's like, okay, Persephone has to be perfectly dressed and the best at all the arts, and her whole goal is to find Persephone a desirable husband. And now it's time for her to get married, and Persephone doesn't want to, she just wants to stay on the island with her mother. Well, actually she wants to go explore the world, but if her options are leave or get married, or stay or get married, she'd rather stay. But Zeus sucks, so.
Erin Moynihan (01:14:40.588)
Mm-hmm.
DJ (01:14:40.598)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Moynihan (01:14:44.629)
Yeah.
Darien (01:14:44.84)
Demeter doesn't have a choice. And so Persephone runs away to the underworld just to try to hide there for a little while and then figure out her next move. Because it's the one place where she knows her mother, who is, because her mother says at one point in time, she's like, I can only protect you so much and I'm goddess of the earth. There's nowhere on earth you can go that I wouldn't be able to find you. So even when you're married, like you won't be gone for long, we will be reunited.
DJ (01:14:54.002)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (01:15:12.273)
What was that?
Erin Moynihan (01:15:13.987)
How's my dog scratching out the door? I think. I can go grab her, hold on. Let me see if she's still there. Oh.
Darien (01:15:16.476)
Oh no! Does the baby need to come in?
DJ (01:15:16.596)
Oh.
Darien (01:15:21.946)
I'm gonna go.
Darien (01:15:27.633)
Maggie!
Erin Moynihan (01:15:28.775)
Yeah, you can come in.
Erin Moynihan (01:15:40.923)
Okay, I've returned with dog. Yeah. Oh hi. Okay.
Darien (01:15:41.454)
Oh, babe, there's a baby. Hello, baby dog.
Darien (01:15:49.272)
Okay, so Persephone goes down. When Demeter finds out what happened, she's enraged, all the things, yada, yada. Eventually, the world, nothing is growing, and the world is freezing. And Persephone has Demeter come visit her, and she tries to explain to her that this is the underworld. I've created Elysium and the Fields of Asphodel, and I'm very happy here, and I can do all this. So you don't have to do this anymore. And Demeter's basically like, I don't care. You either come home, or the humans are going to keep dying.
And then eventually Zeus gets involved and is like, okay, Persephone has to come back. So Hades and Persephone go back up for a meeting and stuff where they learn, and this is, I didn't see this coming. It's not Demeter causing the winter. It's the absence of Persephone. Mm-hmm. And Demeter's like, I did think it was me at first, but then I realized it wasn't, it was you in your absence. She's like, I didn't want to tell you that you were the cause, because...
Erin Moynihan (01:16:34.52)
Oh. Ooh, interesting. Okay.
DJ (01:16:38.37)
Neat.
Darien (01:16:47.92)
I knew how much it would upset you to find out that all these people had died and it was your fault and I didn't want to do that to you, which is like actually gets to the core of what Demeter is as a mother, where everything she does has been to try to protect Persephone, like molding her into this perfect version of like this ancient Greek ideal of a wife. So when it came time for Zeus to demand she be married off, Demeter could
Erin Moynihan (01:17:05.26)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (01:17:15.24)
try to find someone who would treat her daughter well. And that's what she was trying to do. And yeah, basically exactly that, someone who would not be like Zeus to her daughter. And you also find out, so the reason Persephone in this book is the goddess of flowers is because when she was a child and I was at her naming ceremony and Zeus asked, what do you want? She said the world. And he got like, ooh, very like, what is that about? And he's like, and what would you do with it?
DJ (01:17:18.591)
Mm-hmm.
she could ever pick at the litter.
Erin Moynihan (01:17:40.643)
Hmm.
Darien (01:17:45.108)
plant flowers? I don't know how to answer that question. I just want the world. Yeah, I think she was like eight or six. Yeah, very young. But the idea is like Persephone, she is ambitious. She wants the world to do with whatever she wants. She wants freedom and authority and power. She just wants opportunity to make things better. She plants flowers.
DJ (01:17:49.51)
I'm a fucking five year old, bud. Yeah.
Erin Moynihan (01:17:51.843)
I'm sorry.
DJ (01:17:57.462)
What else is there to do? Plant flowers?
DJ (01:18:07.997)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (01:18:10.824)
And Zeus laughs and makes her the goddess of flowers, being like, oh, you have no power, because he views her as like a woman who wants more than her station. So at every opportunity when they interact, he is just trying to put her down and put her down. And at the end of the novel, she and Demeter have this conversation, and Demeter asks her, like, what's your earliest memory? And she's like, I remember my naming ceremony. She's like, yeah, I thought that was probably it. I was so scared.
Erin Moynihan (01:18:16.151)
Hmm.
DJ (01:18:23.47)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (01:18:40.432)
when there, I was so scared for you, I didn't know what was gonna happen because until that point, I told you, you could have the world. And we find out the reason Persephone actually has this ambition, the reason she asked for the world is because when she was very young, her mother basically said, you can be anything you want, you can have anything you want.
Erin Moynihan (01:18:49.968)
Mmm.
Darien (01:19:03.276)
And then at that ceremony, when she saw her daughter actually ask for the thing that her mother told her she could have and saw Zeus look at her like she was a threat, it scared her. And so she desperately tried to mold her daughter into something Zeus wouldn't be afraid of so he wouldn't hurt her. And that doesn't like excuse the things that she did into that kind of that, the trauma that came from the way Persephone was raised and basically made to feel like she was never good enough because she couldn't fit that mold.
Erin Moynihan (01:19:19.181)
Mmm.
Darien (01:19:31.624)
But I think it also makes Demeter endlessly more sympathetic as a character, not just like a helicopter mom with high standards, but like a woman with no power in a world just desperately trying to protect her child and a system that will destroy her daughter if she lets it.
DJ (01:19:31.702)
Yeah.
Erin Moynihan (01:19:49.311)
Mm-hmm. I like that kind of like twist that she Was acting that way like that was her motivation the whole time
Darien (01:19:58.44)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. It is nice. And I, it definitely also the end of the novel really like suggests that Demeter and Persephone will be able to like rebuild the relationship and have a healthy relationship going on. It just Persephone needs her own space and Demeter needs to be able to see her daughter for who she really is. And it suggests that this Demeter as a character is going to be able to do that. And I like that. I liked.
that adaptation of it and that very straightforward. I also liked the twist of like, but Demeter did believe in Persephone and what she could do. It was nice. I like the, yeah, Girl God's Queen is great, y'all. Leave us a review. Take a screenshot of it. Let me maybe send you a book, please. Please tell us that you liked the podcast. We work really hard on it. We have cool guests like Erin. Mm-hmm.
Erin Moynihan (01:20:35.54)
Yeah.
Hmm. Yeah.
DJ (01:20:43.329)
Hehehehe
DJ (01:20:49.966)
Truly. Yeah.
Erin Moynihan (01:20:51.685)
Woo!
Darien (01:20:54.48)
Hey Erin, why don't you tell our listeners where they can find more of you? Cause I feel an episode wrapping up here.
Erin Moynihan (01:21:00.899)
I would love to. You can find Camp Halfpod on all of the podcasting platforms, our social medias at Camp Halfpod. We are mostly just on Instagram. There's also a Twitter. There is a TikTok. I don't think we've made a single one, so you don't need to look there. And you can find me, you can find me through Camp Halfpod's account if you are interested in following me and seeing what I'm up to. Yeah.
DJ (01:21:01.07)
you
Darien (01:21:11.837)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (01:21:16.724)
Hahaha
Darien (01:21:29.404)
Yep. Links to Camp Half-Blood's stuff? Well, specifically their link tree, that's usually what I link to. That'll be in the show notes, go find it. Hey, you heard Monasa last week, you heard Erin this week. There is no reason you should not go hear them together at all times, because they are excellent.
Erin Moynihan (01:21:35.319)
Perfect.
Erin Moynihan (01:21:42.975)
So true. Yes, we get weirder when we're together, so. So.
DJ (01:21:43.246)
True.
Darien (01:21:48.112)
Isn't yeah the way if any listener has ever listened to any of the sporadic episodes where DJ and I have been a solo guest On someone else's podcast. They will know that is not the vibe that you will find at this show There is an energy when the co-hosts are together
Erin Moynihan (01:21:55.974)
Mmm.
DJ (01:22:02.577)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Moynihan (01:22:02.684)
Oh yeah, oh yeah.
Darien (01:22:06.068)
Thank you again so much for joining us and for also like sharing your dolphin girl insight and your unique history with Demeter. It was a privilege.
Erin Moynihan (01:22:11.705)
I uh, of course.
Thank you so much for having me. This was fun. And thanks for, I got a little lesson on some of the mythology. I'm, thank you for all your research. I bet, yeah.
Darien (01:22:22.036)
I'm so glad that makes me- ah! I tried very hard It makes me- ah! It makes me so happy when other podcasters are like, I learned something and I'm like really? You did? But you do this too! Alright, thank you so much. DJ already plugs our Patreon, so you know it's patient
Erin Moynihan (01:22:31.812)
Yeah! Oh yeah.
Erin Moynihan (01:22:39.692)
Ha ha!
DJ (01:22:40.81)
Patreon.com/MusesOfMythology. be there or be square
Erin Moynihan (01:22:46.206)
Mmm. Hehehehe.
Darien (01:22:46.78)
Thank you listeners so much for joining us and until next time, don't be like Zeus.
DJ (01:22:52.31)
Don’t be like Zeus.