Story 69: We Talk A Lot About Hades w/ Manasa (Camp Half-Pod)
"I just love Hades as a character."
In antiquity, the wise refrained from even speaking the name of the god of the underworld to avoid drawing his attention. Today, Manasa (she/her) from Camp Half-Pod joins us to talk about Hades a whole lot!
Talking points include the staying power of childhood favorites, translations of The Iliad, the chilling power of marble, and pinpointing exactly when SMITE lore became completely unhinged.
Get more Manasa on Camp Half-Pod at https://linktr.ee/camphalfpod
Review Rally!
Leave us a happy review for your chance to win a copy of Girl, Goddess, Queen by Bea Fitzgerald: Lovethepodcast.com/musesofmythology
Don't forget to send a screenshot of your review to MusesOfMythology@gmail.com
Spoilers for Myth-o-Mania, Heroes of Olympus, The Trials of Apollo, Lore Olympus, Hades, and SMITE
Content Warning: This episode contains mention of and conversations about death, the afterlife, kidnapping, and sexual assault.
About Us
Muses of Mythology was created and co-hosted by Darien and DJ Smartt.
Our music is Athens Festival by Martin Haene. Our cover art is by Audrey Miller. Find her on Instagram @bombshellnutshellart
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Find us @MusesOfMyth on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. Find all of our episodes and episode transcripts at MusesOfMythology.com
[TRANSCRIPT]
Darien (00:08.266)
Welcome to Muse of Mythology, a podcast where we explore how ancient myths become part of modern pop culture through the lens of Rick Riordan's Percy Jackson and the Olympian series. This is Story 69, Hades. I'm your co-host and podcasting muse Darien Smartt. Joining me is my co-host and brother DJ.
DJ (00:23.677)
How's everybody doing today? I am the Muse of Deals. I make them, I inspire them, I make sure that they go through.
Darien (00:33.056)
Okay, I'm sure we'll elaborate on that quite a bit here in a minute.
DJ (00:38.417)
Yeah, and let's muse about a deal I have for you in the garden.
Darien (00:41.751)
What?
[Break]
Darien (00:48.846)
Alright, DJ, we are back and we are continuing our very thorough examination of the underworld and its various inhabitants.
DJ (00:56.361)
that we are.
Darien (00:58.302)
And today we are joined by a first time guest, someone who I am so excited to have on our show. It is fellow Percy Jackson podcaster Manasafrom Camp Half Pod is here with us.
Manasa (01:27.013)
Hello everybody, I'm so happy to be here.
Darien (01:29.898)
Yay, we're happy to have you here! We haven't had a new guest in a while!
DJ (01:30.941)
Never.
Manasa (01:33.441)
I'm excited to... Oh really? Oh man, I'm very, very honored.
DJ (01:35.033)
in a minute. We've been reusing guests, we've been running out of guests.
Darien (01:39.957)
Mm-hmm. I'm just cycled through everyone in the Discord.
Manasa (01:40.405)
Oh, we have a, I was going to say we have a little pool that we pull from, so that makes sense.
Darien (01:46.11)
Yep. Yeah, I have to start cold emailing authors of bestselling books to see if they'll come play with us.
Manasa (01:53.997)
I mean, that's amazing if you've had anybody like, I mean, is there a dream person you have in mind?
Darien (02:01.662)
Yes, I really want Bea Fitzgerald, author of Girl Goddess Queen, to come talk to us about Persephone.
Manasa (02:07.37)
Oh, that'd be amazing.
Darien (02:08.79)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. It's such a good book. It just came out. We'll see. If it doesn't happen, she's a busy woman. She's writing other books. It's fine. But we're not talking about Persephone today. We are talking about her husband. Yeah. So first of all, you picked this episode topic. Tell us why.
Manasa (02:15.809)
Hehehehehehe
Manasa (02:22.67)
willing participant Hades
Manasa (02:33.545)
I love Hades. I mean the real reason I love Hades is I don't know if you guys, this might be a deep cut, but when I was in elementary school I read the series called Have a Hot One Hades and it's a series, I think there are about five books when I was growing up, there might have been more, I just grew out of them, where it's all of mythology retold from Hades.
Darien (02:47.421)
No, what?
Darien (02:55.606)
Mm-hmm.
Manasa (03:00.921)
perspective, but Hades is actually just a really cool dude and it's super slangy. The second book is called Phone Home Persephone and that was my favorite one. It's all about how he one day was walking home and this girl who was kind of annoying followed him home, but Zeus, who's the evil villain in this, is the one who writes all myths and so he made this whole fake story up about how Hades kidnapped her.
Darien (03:22.689)
Uh-huh.
Manasa (03:30.485)
It was very cute. I think they're like at most a hundred pages. They're for like elementary school kids. And so I always had a soft spot for Hades because of it. And then I grew up and realized that he's, you know, like all men in Greek mythology, super problematic. And that was really disappointing to learn. But I always loved him in Persephone. Yeah.
Darien (03:36.471)
Uh huh.
That's so good.
DJ (03:39.625)
Thanks.
Darien (03:45.87)
Mm-hmm. That's so heartbreaking. Mm-hmm. Oh, I, that's, that is the perfect thing for this show. Oh my gosh, I'm so delighted. Oh, fantastic. Well, let's get into it. I guess the first thing I'm gonna have to ask is, usually I have DJ tell us what he remembers about Hades from the Percy Jackson books, but actually I wanna start with, how do you feel about Hades in the Percy Jackson books?
DJ (03:47.311)
Mm-hmm.
Manasa (03:55.123)
Hehehe
DJ (03:55.729)
Hehehehe
Manasa (04:14.013)
I like that he's kind of slimy. I think it fits all of the gods being kind of slimy. It's, I mean, much like Percy, his description is not what I imagined. For me, a lot of the characters in my brain are automatically people of color, because that's a reflect, if I like them, they're a reflection of myself. And so like Percy in my brain was always, you know, like a brown kid. And so reading, when he, Logan Lierman, who I love, you know.
Darien (04:35.245)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (04:43.018)
Yeah. Right cast, wrong movie.
Manasa (04:43.149)
love Logan Lerman was cast. I was like, oh right. Yeah, exactly. I was just like, it was for me to see Percy as like a white boy was really surprising and I was like, we remember, I mean he never gets specifically said that he's a white boy but like again, Hades is like super pale and he's like very slimy and he's very grumpy. He's very upset about being in the underworld and he's just very envious and
DJ (04:47.421)
Hehehe
Manasa (05:10.569)
Not a great person. I think it's a really good description of how he is in the myths. I think they could have made him seem more powerful because he kind of seems very like third place compared to Poseidon Zeus. I also think it's really strange that his children are like literally canonically like Hitler and Mussolini. But it makes sense too, so, you know?
Darien (05:15.852)
Yeah.
Darien (05:23.244)
Yeah!
Darien (05:28.43)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
DJ (05:30.866)
Yeah.
Darien (05:32.354)
And that's a thing that we've just never walked back. Like, weird.
Manasa (05:35.662)
Yeah, exactly. We're just like, let it go. Like, Nico's half-brother is Hitler is kind of r-
Darien (05:39.986)
Yeah. It is super distressing. It's like, yeah, your half brother is Nico, who is gay. Your half brother is Hitler. Hazel, who is black. Your half brother is Hitler. It's like neat, Rick. The optics, Rick, the optics.
DJ (05:53.199)
It's a little rough.
Manasa (05:54.979)
Mmm.
Darien (06:00.546)
But yeah, I think...
Manasa (06:00.697)
But I wanna hear about you guys' perspective on, did you guys always think that Hades kinda looked like this pale man who's with greasy hair?
Darien (06:11.134)
No, he definitely was blue and his hair was on fire for me because I grew up watching Disney's Hercules on VHS.
DJ (06:15.212)
Hehehehehehe
Manasa (06:18.128)
Yes.
DJ (06:19.337)
I think I'm in the same boat, just like a different model. But he's still blue with his hair on fire. But he's not the one from Hercules. He's just the tall, slender man in black cloaks.
Darien (06:26.998)
but just that aesthetic.
Manasa (06:31.953)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (06:32.19)
Yeah, it very much is a, we are Disney Hercules defenders. We think the movie is good actually.
DJ (06:39.803)
Mm-hmm
Manasa (06:41.389)
I mean, correct. The music is so good and the story is so good. Is it accurate factually? No, but that doesn't matter at the end of the day.
DJ (06:43.337)
The movie's very fun. Yeah.
Darien (06:46.215)
Music is so good.
Darien (06:50.582)
No, that doesn't matter. Our whole podcast is about asking, does it matter? And the answer is always, no, actually, it doesn't matter. Did we have fun? But no, I think for me and the way Hades is portrayed, it feels like Rick Riordan is clashing in between two...
DJ (06:57.261)
Not really, no.
Manasa (06:57.893)
No it doesn't. Yes, that's what matters.
DJ (07:00.698)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (07:19.77)
On one hand, trying to portray the Hades of myth in that just like set apart, very serious, very following the law of life and death, but like will adhere to like his word essentially. And then flip side, you just have almost just standard villain because death bat.
Manasa (07:48.064)
Yeah.
Darien (07:48.222)
And it's perplexing. Cause I almost think the fact that Hades appears in the first book is a thing that has hindered later depictions of the character or Ryarden's attempts to like lean more into like a nuanced version of God of the Underworld. Because in the first book, he's not the villain.
DJ (08:07.275)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (08:11.19)
but his cloak is described as having souls of the tormented dead in them and he's described as looking like Hitler and he's described as I KIDNAPPED YOUR MOM
Manasa (08:20.802)
Yeah.
DJ (08:22.134)
Yeah, but to be fair, he also believed that he had his crown, his shadow crown. So he's like, I want you my shadow crown so you can have your mom back.
Darien (08:29.526)
Yeah, yeah, but how-
Darien (08:34.942)
Helm of Darkness. Shadow Crown is better, actually. We're gonna put a pin in it for a second, but I do agree. How is him kidnapping Sally Jackson not part of those ancient laws that Chiron and everyone else are always like, bitching about?
DJ (08:36.133)
Yeah, Shadow Crown.
Manasa (08:40.524)
I'm sorry.
DJ (08:43.785)
I'm going to go to bed.
DJ (08:53.289)
Because she was about to die anyway, it's a loophole I guess.
Manasa (08:55.533)
Yeah, I guess he gets to, yeah, it's his domain at that point. It's his realm. So technically he saved her a little bit and then gets to keep her. I mean, why does he have Persephone? Like there's a lot of questions that we have to.
Darien (09:10.411)
Yeah, I don't know. I will say it again. The ancient laws are just plot mechanic that Rick uses when he wants to say, because this, that's why. Don't ask me. Because this, because I said so don't worry about it. And they will come and go as needed.
DJ (09:20.454)
Yeah.
Manasa (09:21.922)
Yeah.
I'm sure it keeps things, yeah, and it keeps things more middle grade book rather than like just violent death everywhere and assault and all the bad stuff. Mm-hmm.
Darien (09:32.642)
Yes Yeah, and we don't want that like for real That's not what I'm looking for in these books or any books that I read, but yes You saying DJ?
DJ (09:33.234)
Mm-hmm monsters poof into powder
DJ (09:46.033)
Monsters poof into powder.
Darien (09:48.266)
They do! They do, it is.
Manasa (09:49.462)
Yeah, I do.
DJ (09:49.705)
In the gold dust, they do not leave a corpse, they do not shed blood.
Darien (09:55.222)
Yeah, it is something that Owen has been trying to figure out for months over on Through the Mist. Owen is... Yeah, but why? No, we can't. Go listen to that episode, gang. It's great.
Manasa (09:59.286)
He's like, where did they go?
DJ (09:59.994)
Why they do that? They go to tartars, we know that much at least.
Manasa (10:04.329)
Yeah, that's true. Completely different tangent. I mean, speaking of tangents, I always thought that the depiction of Hades being grungy, which is cool, like he's punk, it gives Nico an outlet for his hot topic of obsession, but so like in Greek mythology there's no like difference between heaven and hell, there's just sections of the underworld for different crimes or different places for you to go. So Hades is overseeing all of that, so he is both-
Darien (10:18.35)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Darien (10:26.86)
Yeah.
Manasa (10:33.849)
the person who enforces good things and bad things. So why is he depicted in such a grungy way? It's always been my question.
Darien (10:43.318)
Yeah, I feel like that is the leaning into death as inherently bad and kind of playing the villain aspect of, oh, it's very grungy and.
DJ (11:00.115)
Dirty.
Darien (11:01.226)
Yeah, I don't know. Well, the Christians are to blame for that. We know this for a fact. We're just rolling up and equating Hades with Satan. This is their fault.
Manasa (11:02.507)
Yeah.
DJ (11:05.821)
Hehehehehehehe
Manasa (11:06.341)
Hehehe
I guess I can.
Manasa (11:12.771)
I would love to see Hades.
DJ (11:12.945)
Well, it's not their fault that nobody ever wanted to talk about Hades.
Darien (11:16.822)
We'll get to that!
Manasa (11:17.413)
That's true and say his name and stuff. I would have I mean I did like how Rick Riordan did a better job of like When Pluto walked in Pluto was a lot more Stable, I feel like as a father Hades was whiny, but Pluto was a lot more he was colder But he was a lot more stable and less just like
DJ (11:27.258)
Mmm.
Darien (11:32.439)
Mm-hmm.
DJ (11:35.433)
He was a businessman, now he's dealing in gold.
Darien (11:38.496)
Ha ha!
Manasa (11:38.697)
Yes, exactly. That's exactly what it is.
Darien (11:41.49)
Yeah, we go from used car dealer to I have old money.
Manasa (11:46.177)
Oh yes, that's what it is. It's old money. That's the exact vibes. All buried under a tree.
DJ (11:46.886)
Yeah. Do I invest it in gold?
Darien (11:49.994)
Mm-hmm. Or oil, my great grandfather. Yep. It's all buried under a tree.
DJ (11:53.147)
Yeah.
Darien (11:57.654)
Oh my gosh. So I think, well, last thing I want to talk about is how Hades definitely can, excuse me, puppy. Hades.
Hades and the books can compete with Hera for just most misplaced rage. In the cursing of the Oracle after Zeus kills Maria D'Angelo.
Manasa (12:18.285)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (12:27.33)
Feel about that as a depiction of Hades.
Manasa (12:32.693)
I feel like it's pretty accurate though. Like you look at, yes, but it's very accurate to how the gods react, right? Like Apollo and all of them, even reading Trials of Apollo now and Apollo has to tell everyone what his reaction is to them, you know, like all the people he's like maimed and killed because he like, they beat him in a competition and stuff like that. All of these gods have such short tempers and they misdirect all of their energy because all of their energy should be going to Zeus.
DJ (12:33.705)
short-sighted.
Darien (12:38.903)
Mm-hmm.
DJ (12:39.08)
Yeah.
Darien (12:53.385)
Yeah.
Darien (13:02.035)
Yes. Mm-hmm.
Manasa (13:02.061)
but it never can. So like, I mean, it's very, it's kind of lame, I thought of Yehades, obviously, especially since he's already been depicted as like a used car salesman. So it was like, oh man, like he's just not that cool of a dude, but I felt like it was accurate.
DJ (13:02.147)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (13:13.579)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (13:20.918)
Yeah, I agree. DJ, you said you thought it was short-sighted?
DJ (13:24.101)
I mean, it kind of is, right? The Oracle came out, gave a thing saying the next child would be bad, and so they blamed it on, or they attacked Hades' most recent children for it. So he just went into a rage because he got bad news.
Darien (13:36.93)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (13:41.898)
Yeah, it wasn't even like, oh, next child will be bad. It's like, one of your kids is gonna be real powerful and influence things. So, you know, do with that what you will. And Zeus decided, all right, I want control of all the kids. And Hades didn't do what I said, so I'm gonna try to kill him. And then Hades is like, well, I'm gonna curse the oracle who said the prophecy. And I'm glad you mentioned Apollo, because you know who had never brought this fact up?
DJ (13:46.873)
Alright, yeah.
DJ (13:53.766)
Yeah.
Darien (14:12.746)
Apollo feels weird that he seems so unconcerned with the fact that his like primary oracle just was trapped in a decaying body for several decades.
DJ (14:13.053)
follow.
Manasa (14:14.361)
That is true.
DJ (14:25.393)
Maybe he did have a problem with it, it just happened off screen.
Manasa (14:25.669)
Let me have the history with all of his oracles.
Darien (14:28.311)
Bet, yeah.
Manasa (14:29.497)
that's true. But also he all of his oracles went through something like that and he doesn't process it or even acknowledge it until he's immortal in trials of Apollo.
DJ (14:36.137)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (14:38.903)
Yeah.
is a good point. It's all about learning. Overthrow Zeus win is what I have to say about this.
Manasa (14:43.493)
No. Yes.
DJ (14:48.301)
Technically he did it to one of his oracles himself. You curse the oracle to live forever, even like her body will decay, but... You won't. You so won't.
Darien (14:52.862)
Yeah!
Manasa (14:53.546)
It's true, like...
Manasa (14:57.345)
Yeah, Sibylleen.
Darien (14:58.318)
Mm-hmm. Yep. I'm going to have us back away from Trials of Apollo real quick, just for safety, for safety, for Manasseh, just because you're on the last book, and we just, it's too easy for us to get swept up in thought. So it's about Hades anyway. And it's OK. It's so much. But it's also very little. Hades is the thing, because.
Manasa (15:03.142)
Yeah, smart.
Manasa (15:23.104)
Yes.
DJ (15:24.199)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (15:26.078)
I feel like you could do the things that like, oh, here's what everyone knows, right? It's like, ah, Hades, oldest son of Rhea and Cronus, swallowed by Cronus, rescued by Zeus, Titan war, beat the Titans, they all pulled lots, which that is actually from the Iliad. Didn't know until today that piece, Poseidon is talking about it, and he's telling someone about like, yeah, we all pulled lots, and I got the ocean, and Hades got the underworld, and Zeus got the sky, so.
DJ (15:44.87)
Nice.
Darien (15:55.154)
Not sure what context that is in, but.
Manasa (15:57.666)
In Have a Hot One Hades, the children's book, he plays a card game and Zeus cheats and that's how Zeus gets the sky.
Darien (16:05.3)
Ah!
Mm-hmm.
DJ (16:08.208)
This is just a villain. An old timey villain in that.
Darien (16:10.434)
just of the- rightly so.
Manasa (16:10.485)
Yeah, he's a villain.
Darien (16:15.618)
So it's like, oh, Zeus cheats to get the sky, or when they draw lots. It's always interpretations of this site that Hades is resentful of this fact and doesn't like that he's in the underworld. But there's really nothing to suggest that in mythological stories. Now, to be fair, it's probably because he doesn't do much in myth, not as little as Icarus does, which is the one thing, and that's it.
DJ (16:43.23)
The one thing.
Darien (16:44.738)
But really, yeah, dying. Flying badly.
Manasa (16:44.979)
dying
Darien (16:50.774)
But the big, the one story where Hades is like a very active participant, like the inciting incident is him, is the taking of Persephone's story in the hymns of Demeter. And we're just going to put a big pin in that one. I'm sorry, y'all. We're not, we can't break that one down right now. We're going to move on, but does anyone have thoughts about that narrative that we want to like discuss here without going deep into Persephone or Demeter of it?
We're doing their episodes next, so I have to save something.
Manasa (17:23.923)
No, I think we'd get lost in the sauce if we tried to do that.
Darien (17:27.406)
Mm-hmm. So yeah, that's it. And really, that story is mostly just to explain the changing of the seasons anyway. So it's not really about Hades at all. And the other times.
Manasa (17:34.66)
Yeah.
Manasa (17:38.053)
Yeah, and it's, sorry, it's just like, it's such an interesting story because the idea that he just like saw this one girl chillin' and like, is you Scott, I mean, that gets into the whole like, ownership of women, right? And the fact that Demeter and, Demeter was never heard, even though she is sister and wife and mother-in-law in this situation, and then Persephone was never heard. And...
Darien (17:41.922)
No, yeah.
Darien (17:54.446)
Mm-hmm.
Manasa (18:07.201)
I don't know, it's such an interesting story and I think everyone loves it also because in mythology, because Hades isn't talked about a lot, he does have a lot of like affairs or other children. It's just like he has his wife and that is so rare that I think it gets romanticized because it's like he loves his wife and he's the only one of all of the gods who is just like devoted to his wife. It's just like, you know, maybe she didn't want to be his wife and that's a whole different issue.
Darien (18:19.809)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (18:24.865)
Yeah.
Darien (18:35.578)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, it is complicated. Ah, no, you're right, we're gonna get lost in the sauce because now I wanna get into it and okay. But yeah, and even when it gets romanticized, you're right, because it's like, oh, Hades didn't have affairs. But there are like two figures from mythology that were noted as being like consorts or like lovers for Hades. And it was Minthe, or Mint, who was an underworld nymph, and Luce?
Manasa (18:41.243)
Yeah, exactly.
DJ (19:00.502)
before Persephone.
Darien (19:05.174)
Lucey? I don't know, my roommate and I, yeah. Who was like an oceanid nymph, and they both hooked up with Hades at one point in time, and sometimes it's like, oh, it's before he married Persephone, and he had nothing to do with him afterwards, and sometimes it was like when he was with Persephone, and then he hooked up with them, and they were both, at least Minthe was boasting about how like she was better than Persephone, and she was gonna be the new queen of the underworld, and either Demeter and or Persephone rolled up and killed her for that.
DJ (19:06.895)
I have no idea.
Manasa (19:08.133)
and you could be correct.
Darien (20:15.078)
But yeah, I think the interpretation of like, oh, Hades only has Persephone and he's so devoted to his wife. And you're right, that is like, is over romanticized in a sense because actually here are other two figures of mythology that prove he was kind of just like any other God. But I'm not mad about the former interpretation. Like I liked that one quite a bit. We'll talk so much about it later.
Manasa (20:34.626)
Mm-hmm.
Manasa (20:42.405)
I know, it's like, give us the one nice thing, I know.
Darien (20:45.298)
Yes, we deserve a nice thing. The other times that Hades is like more of a presence is usually just when someone else, and I made this list that I call folks that fucked around and found out in the underworld. Top of the list, we've got Orpheus. Could play a sweet jam. Couldn't keep his eyes on the road in front of him. We've next up, Theseus and...
Manasa (21:02.627)
Ha ha.
Darien (21:14.594)
Paratheus, who thought it'd be a super fun idea to kidnap Persephone so she could be Paratheus's wife. And... That poor girl! This was after they had kidnapped Helen! Yes, that one! When she was eight! So, uh, yeah. Hades, uh, imprisons them in the underworld for a while. Uh, we got Hercules, who actually did only want to borrow Hades' dog.
Manasa (21:21.509)
That's crazy, that poor girl.
Manasa (21:28.142)
Oh man.
Darien (21:45.026)
so he wasn't trying to steal anyone and bring them back to life. And he did ask permission to do this. So Hades was like, yeah man, go off. And while Hercules was down there, he did go ahead and save Theseus because they were buds. Paratheus, still in the underworld to this day. Fun fact. A lot of people don't know that.
DJ (21:50.025)
Hehehehe
DJ (21:57.677)
Yeah.
Manasa (21:58.954)
Yeah, might as well.
Darien (22:06.899)
There was Sisyphus who thought he would fuck around and find out twice in attempting to cheat death.
DJ (22:13.245)
He succeeded the first time, why not a second?
Darien (22:15.074)
He did, and thought he would push his luck. And Hades does not approve.
DJ (22:18.103)
Yeah.
Manasa (22:20.508)
No.
Darien (22:22.614)
And the last one is Dionysus, who after he becomes a god, Dionysus goes to his underworld to rescue his mother, Semile, who died before he was born. But he doesn't bring her back to life, he just brings her to Mount Olympus to be a goddess. So like, hashtag loophole.
Manasa (22:40.813)
Also, he's a god, he can do a lot more than some, like, Hercules can do.
Darien (22:42.166)
He's not doing it.
DJ (22:44.444)
Yeah.
Darien (22:45.706)
Yeah, exactly. And I did think, because I was reading the list of like, oh, folks who'd gone to the underworld to try to rescue someone and Dionysus wasn't listed on it. And I think it's because when I went to like, look Dionysus specifically, like Hades is never mentioned in that Dionysus myth. Like he's not an element or an obstacle or anything that Dionysus had to deal with. He was just allowed to do so. I think you're right. It's because he was a god.
DJ (22:53.865)
ridiculous.
Manasa (23:02.219)
Mmm.
Darien (23:13.262)
But I thought that was...
DJ (23:13.545)
Like, I understand you got rules, but I just want to met... I just want them up in my place. That's all I need. Like, they'll stay dead. They won't go back to the mortal world. I just want them at my place.
Manasa (23:13.785)
So like he's just like kind of step to the side. Yeah.
Darien (23:19.891)
I just want him to leave.
Darien (23:23.878)
Yeah, as long as they're not going back to life, it's fine. Cause that's technically his job. Don't let the souls go back to being alive.
DJ (23:32.268)
Yeah.
Manasa (23:32.611)
Yeah.
Darien (23:34.99)
So for those keeping track, that is 4 out of 6 who would not recommend fucking around in the underworld to find out.
Manasa (23:45.002)
Two of them did a good job. They survived, they got what they wanted. It's very rare.
Darien (23:47.745)
Yeah.
Darien (23:51.67)
Very rare, yeah. It was literally you had to be either Hercules or a god.
Manasa (23:56.429)
Yeah.
Darien (24:00.094)
Alright, I'm trying to figure out how to segue into this thing that I deeply went off on.
Manasa (24:12.835)
I had read, so I was like reading before I came onto the podcast and I was reading this part about it too. It was like very Voldemort-y of him to not want to say his name.
Darien (24:24.306)
Yes! There is a-
Manasa (24:26.389)
I thought that was really fascinating.
Darien (24:28.842)
Yeah, Hades is one of the gods, or like...
DJ (24:33.542)
Entities.
Darien (24:34.642)
entities. Well, I think I'll just say my like thesis thing or the thing and then we can get into this. Hades doesn't appear in a lot of myths and the reason they will you will find is because, well, the ancient Greeks were so afraid of death that they never talked about Hades because they didn't want to get his attention. And they will say that is also why he has so many nicknames and epitaphs.
Manasa (24:36.32)
Mm.
Darien (25:04.694)
Like they would call him Zeus of the underworld or this one that was like Plouton, which means wealthy. And that was an association with the wealth under the earth that was said to belong to him.
And like other places, we'll note these things too. There is one thing I found that claimed when folks would do sacrifices to Hades, they would avert their eyes and like look away out of fear. I would also like to note that the source I found for that was a Hungarian classical philosophy scholar named, I'm gonna butcher this, I'm so sorry, Carly Carony?
And I think that's very fascinating. He clearly was a man who did a lot of research and knew what his game was. Uh, he also claimed that Hades and Dionysus were the same god. So. I'm not s-
Manasa (25:55.841)
Ooh, the god of death and the god of partying and wine are the same person.
Darien (26:03.19)
Mm-hmm. His whole thing was like, well, in the hymn to Demeter, there's a lot of like life and death. And Dionysus would be just another version of Hades. And Dionysus is also a god that has Thonic things because he does go to the underworld and rescue his mother and bring her back. It is interesting. And I'm not saying this gentleman was wrong or not a reliable source. I'm just saying maybe grain of salt.
DJ (26:29.289)
Hehehe
Manasa (26:30.185)
I feel like it's a big, big claim that I wouldn't agree with, but I think it is an interesting one.
Darien (26:34.238)
Yeah. Yes, I don't fault him for having it. I just perhaps disagree and therefore put other things he claims into question.
Manasa (26:40.649)
Mm.
Darien (26:46.338)
There was also a line when I was trying, okay, the problem I was having is I'm just really hung up on the notion of like, oh, they don't talk about Hades because they're scared of him, right? And, but anytime that was stated with like a source, the source was just a collection of mythology stories written by another like, philosopher, not philosopher, but like, I couldn't find like a firsthand source of some sort of mythological texts that like,
DJ (27:06.121)
Mm-hmm.
Manasa (27:07.277)
Hmm
Darien (27:15.806)
stated this outright, which in one hand makes sense. It's not like there was someone writing in their diary that was like, and at Nana's funeral, no one mentioned Hades because you know, that guy's scary as hell. We don't talk about him.
Manasa (27:27.573)
Yeah. But I also wonder because of the lack of like information on him or even firsthand accounts about him, maybe everyone was scared to write about him.
Darien (27:29.486)
But...
Darien (27:38.902)
Yeah, and that's usually the conclusion that's drawn, but another figure that does not have accounts, is not portrayed in myth or art, is Hestia, who we talked about on a recent episode, and no one claims that it was because they were afraid of Hestia. The reasoning is given is because the hearth was so valued and so revered and respected, that the notion of Hestia going off with the other gods and doing things and not being present in the hearth,
Manasa (27:49.561)
Hmm.
Darien (28:08.822)
would have been like culturally disrespectful.
Manasa (28:13.313)
I also love the idea that people are afraid of making a home. They're like, God, that's terrifying. Don't look at the hearth. It's so scary. Don't go home. Don't make a meal. Sit outside.
Darien (28:19.994)
Mood. We're so- aw I can't. The responsibility! Oh no. Don't- never. No. Just take- get fast food all day every day. Sit under a tree and dream.
Manasa (28:30.309)
Hehehe
Manasa (28:34.821)
I guess it's easier to assume that they're scared of death and revere the hearth than like, assuming the other way around.
Darien (28:42.774)
Yeah, and it does make sense. And then the other evidence is often like, oh, well, Hades had so many nicknames and epitaphs because they didn't want to draw his attention. And I was like, bet, yeah. You also had a bunch of nicknames and epitaphs? Apollo. Who everyone says they loved so much.
DJ (29:01.609)
That's because he was the sun.
Darien (29:03.798)
Yeah, and an-
saying that the idea that they were afraid of Hades is wrong necessarily?
But like, I'm calling it maybe there was a more nuanced idea rather than just, oh, old timey superstitions.
DJ (29:15.081)
You're just calling it into question.
DJ (29:25.757)
But all time your superstitions ran the world back then.
Manasa (29:29.317)
It's true.
Darien (29:30.518)
Yeah, yeah, I guess everything we talk about is old-timey superstition.
DJ (29:36.345)
Yeah, it's all mythology.
Darien (29:39.126)
Yeah, I guess that's kind of what the point is. Oh my God, okay, sorry. So there's this passage that a lot of different sources would cite from the Iliad, where Agamemnon's basically like, yeah, we hate Hades the most, because he's unrelenting. And I could not find that passage in my copy of the Iliad. And I realized it was because Robert Fagel's actually, who has the translation that we refer to, because I don't have Emily Wilson's translation yet, he refers to it as like death being the one who was unrelenting.
So I hit up our podcast discord and was like, does anybody have Emily Wilson's translation I'd like to reference? And no, but Emily from Monster Donuts, local classic scholar.
Manasa (30:21.537)
I was gonna say good resource.
Darien (30:23.49)
best resource, honestly, pulled up the ancient Greek text and checked it out for me and did confirm that the word used in the text is the word for Hades. So, Fagels was doing some interpretation. Yep.
Manasa (30:25.279)
Yeah.
Manasa (30:36.898)
Oh, so specifically he does. Mmm.
DJ (30:39.343)
Okay.
Manasa (30:41.993)
I think it's also very interesting that, you know, a lot of modern religions, like the bigger religions, Christianity, Islam,
Darien (30:50.594)
Mm-hmm.
Manasa (30:50.857)
Judaism all think about death in a very positive way because the afterlife is such a positive thing and the fact that your entire goal in life is to make it to a positive space in the afterlife and like in Hinduism and Buddhism, it's a it's not really about it's about you know reaching nirvana at some point and Just being so good in your life that you get this reward. So in it's fun to look at ancient
Darien (31:04.724)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (31:11.65)
Mm-hmm.
Manasa (31:18.345)
religions like Greek mythology where they're so afraid of death and like the whole point is just like you don't think about the underworld you think about just living your life and then you don't talk about the underworld because it's so opposite of what we see now.
Darien (31:23.395)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (31:32.822)
Yeah, that's a really good point. And I think that is often because even though we have the idea, as we talked about earlier, the underworld being divided into three different places and Hades is the one who's in charge of the place where people are punished for what they did in life and the place where they are rewarded for what they did in life, death was still so scary and terrible and unspoken.
largely because that concept of death being a place where your actions in life are judged accordingly, came what we would consider very, very late in the context of these stories. Because another thing we mentioned in our last episode about the underworld is how very early on, like the earliest ones we have, like the Iliad, the Odyssey, the underworld is just this...
of like shades and shadows where the dead just exist and linger. And when he goes to the underworld, Odysseus speaks to Achilles and Achilles basically goes like, I would rather be employed by the poorest man on earth than be king in here because it sucks, my guy. It's like, I don't care how much they sing my praises up there. I'm dead now. And it's terrible.
And that was before anybody was being forced to like push boulders up a hill.
So I almost think it's kind of relates to like what I said about like Hades in the Rick Riden books earlier with how he's because like he's in the first one it makes it the way it was like preset Rick Riden has to like balance that with later more nuanced takes. When because early versions of the underworld were like bad do not speak of we hate it even when later on when it became a place where hey if you live good you can go to Elysium here. It was still like
Manasa (33:13.432)
Mmm.
Darien (33:25.914)
But Hades though, it's hard to reconcile this very ancient, like established concept of our character and cultural relationship with this figure.
Manasa (33:39.573)
I do like the concept though, like what we're talking about of like, oh, you know, ancient Greeks couldn't even speak his name. And then in Rick Erdens' version of Hades, he feels super isolated and unwelcome with his own family and amongst mortals. And so does Nico. And I think that's a good, that's a good interpretation of that and a good way to play it into a story.
Darien (33:46.658)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (33:52.641)
Yeah.
Darien (34:01.186)
Yeah, no, you're totally right. Because I think earlier I was thinking like that, since of isolation and resentment doesn't appear to exist in the text, in this quote source material, because there's not much. But you're absolutely right. I think it's a great interpretation with viewing the actual real world relationship with this mythological figure.
Manasa (34:09.147)
Mm-hmm
Darien (34:22.663)
And I think...
I also think maybe, rather than it just be an idea of fear and superstition, it could also be this place of death is such a concrete thing, this immovable, impassable notion of life and death, that it could also have been like Hades doesn't run around because death doesn't do that either.
Manasa (34:48.097)
Hmm
Darien (34:49.494)
Even though to clarify, we know, we know, Hades is not death. That is a different guy. He's got the underworld. But don't at me, we know.
DJ (34:55.721)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Manasa (34:59.009)
I also like the idea that maybe ancient peoples didn't really, like, were very afraid of death because it came at such an early age because no one had vaccines and Tylenol, so they all died at like 30.
Darien (35:11.614)
Yeah, it just could come at any time. That's, that's awesome. So you know what? Death actually was just running amok. Oof.
DJ (35:12.586)
was just around the corner.
Manasa (35:14.941)
Yeah. Didn't even make it to one year old. Yeah, it's just everywhere constantly.
Darien (35:23.194)
Mm-hmm. Well, you know, on that downer of a note, Manasa, do you want to tell us more about your Hades book? Because it's time for us to talk about Hades and popular culture.
Manasa (35:28.534)
Yeah
Manasa (35:37.329)
Oh yes, okay, so this is really fun for me because, so I have to make sure that it's the right name. Have a hot one, Hades. I think that's exactly what it's called. Have a hot time, Hades. So the series was called Mythomania.
Manasa (35:56.885)
and it suddenly popped into my head. I think I had read, I forgot that I had like pre-ordered one of the like Heroes of Olympus books when I was in college and it arrived at my dorm and I was really surprised and as I was reading it I was talking to my roommate about this Mythomania series and I was like I love them as a child. Does it still hold up? So I found them at the library and like got the e-books and I reread the first two.
Darien (36:07.935)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (36:20.791)
Mm-hmm.
Manasa (36:23.989)
They're still really fun. I recommend it takes you 15 minutes to read. They're definitely for children and there's a lot of really silly there's a lot of really silly concepts in it. I think they make him the oldest. He's not the eldest child but in the books that those they made him the eldest and he's like you know very older brother energy and he's just like such an angel but because I loved those so much and I loved the Phone Home Persephone books.
Darien (36:27.073)
Yay!
Darien (36:30.466)
Damn, sounds like our next Remith episode, DJ.
Darien (36:43.438)
Mm-hmm.
Manasa (36:53.333)
I was like always hunting for like good Persephone Hades books but I'm not like trying to get into like I'm not someone who really loves romance books, not all about that. And the thing that is popular right now or was popular before Lore of Olympus came out was the series about like Hades and Persephone but it's like your typical like there's a shirtless man on the cover and
Darien (36:58.606)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (37:05.97)
Okay.
Darien (37:20.154)
Mm-hmm. Ah!
Manasa (37:21.125)
like in the mafia but he's also Hades and also he like wants to possess her and it's like really gross and kind of cringy. But then Lore of Olympus came out and I really I started reading it when it first popped up on web comics on my phone. Webtoons yeah and I was just like I found a picture of it because it was like floating around Tumblr back in the day and I got really into it.
Darien (37:26.811)
Oh yeah.
Darien (37:36.03)
Ooh, webtoons, yeah.
Manasa (37:48.037)
So like, and then I went and so then I love it, Laura of Olympus, I've been keeping up with it for like however many years it's been published. Hades Town I went and saw on Broadway, it's my only Broadway show I've ever seen. Loved it. Oh my God, you're gonna love it.
Darien (37:54.446)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (37:57.75)
Ah, we're going in November. We finally are gonna see it. Oh, I'm so excited. I'll be very excited to be able to talk about it on this podcast, like with more depth as a site point, cause it's like, oh, I'm so excited.
DJ (37:58.737)
nice.
Hehehehehe
DJ (38:06.795)
I know, it's gonna be a lot of fun.
Manasa (38:07.578)
I can't wait.
Manasa (38:12.149)
I've seen it twice now, I saw it in New York, and then it came to Seattle, and I made Erin, my co-host, go with me, and it was very fun. It was a really good, it's just like the music, that one's a really good one, so all of the things, and obviously Hercules, I had that on VHS, I watched it, like, there was a period of my life I watched, I had to watch it once a week, like, I loved that. And so for me, Hades has always been like a super positive character.
Darien (38:16.917)
Oh.
Darien (38:28.526)
Mm-hmm.
Manasa (38:41.437)
And so I'm always hunting for more on him. And it's just like, it's never what I really want, which is unfortunate, but I'm always curious. So I really have to hear about this Girl Goddess Queen book you mentioned earlier.
Darien (38:44.834)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (38:54.395)
I was about to say, based on the descriptions you have presented for the version of Hades you have liked, and then also just mentioning how Persephone in phone home Persephone is an annoying girl who kind of follows him home, I think you would love Girl Goddess Queen. This is a... Yes, you have to order it from Blackwell, because it's not published in the United States. It does not have a North American publisher right now. It is only available in, well, it's available in Europe.
Manasa (39:11.389)
I'm gonna order it right now.
Darien (39:22.818)
But yeah, I'd order it from Blackwell because they had free international shipping. So that's how I got my copy.
Manasa (39:28.725)
Oh, okay, Internet Free International shipping's amazing.
DJ (39:29.513)
Nice.
Darien (39:31.646)
Yes. Casual reminder to our listeners, we are doing a review rally. If you leave us a happy review, take a screenshot and send it to the email at musen mythology at gmail.com. We will enter you into a drawing to win a copy of Girl Goddess Queen. This is not affiliated with the author or the publisher. I will just buy you a copy and mail it to you. Because I need more people to read this book anyway. So it is the premise is a why a romcom fake dating enemies to lovers retelling of Hades and Persephone. Which it.
DJ (39:48.403)
Mm-hmm.
Manasa (39:48.879)
Amazing!
Manasa (39:59.601)
Oh my god.
Darien (40:01.31)
It sounds so bubblegum pop and it's not. It is the most heart wrenchingly real take on what life would have been like for a woman in ancient society and the like very real challenges and fears that Persephone faced when Zeus said, "'Time to marry you off.'" And so she is the one who takes it into her own hands to go to the underworld because the underworld is a place where they tell the stories of like,
Oh, scary monsters and death and stuff. But never once is there a story about what like those terrible stories, like the kind that happens to young women in Oceania or Olympus. So that's where she goes. And so she meets Hades, who is I can't I can't listen. I can't tell you about Hades, but is good, is very good. Like him a lot. And I will also say, I think oftentimes we get a version of Hades in pop culture when if he is not the villain, we have
Manasa (40:52.765)
Okie dokes. There we go.
Darien (41:01.186)
Peek Sadboy Hades.
Manasa (41:03.385)
Yes, that's true.
Darien (41:04.738)
And just casual shout out to Kamisama no Asubi, which I only mentioned because I remembered that it was an anime that existed based off a dating sim video game and I watched every episode of it. And all of the love interests are different hot boy variations of gods. Hades is one of them. He is peak sad boy energy. I say this to underline that Girl Goddess Queen Hades, not sad boy energy.
Manasa (41:20.15)
Oh my God.
Manasa (41:29.344)
Hmm
Darien (41:34.41)
No, no, no sad boy energy is soft, is soft cinnamon roll. Who could murder a Titan? Not sad boy energy at all. So I highly recommend. But yeah, the Hades in that and it's very cool in Girl Goddess Queen, how it so deeply leans into the concept of him as king of the underworld and the things that Hades does to. Protect his realm and the fronts he puts on to
Manasa (41:42.181)
amazing.
Manasa (42:02.756)
Hmm.
Darien (42:04.81)
continue to add essentially adhere or play the politics of this world that men like Zeus have created and What he has to do in order to continue to hold power in this world to protect his realm from the things that men like Zeus and Poseidon do in theirs and it's
Manasa (42:23.193)
that.
Darien (42:25.142)
B Fitzgerald is like masterfully done, masterfully done in the interpretations of these characters. Also Stix, great character, she's just there.
Manasa (42:35.929)
Yeah.
DJ (42:37.137)
That's awesome.
Darien (42:38.082)
DJ is gonna get sick of hearing me say these same things over and over again about Girl Goddess Queen. Oh, thank you, DJ.
DJ (42:42.945)
Oh no, it'll be fine. It'll be fun. Yeah.
Manasa (42:47.765)
I will say the other thing that I know Hades from is the video game Hades, which I have and I have keep dying on. They're- oh my god, no, I'm not good at video games and I got it right before I started grad school because I was like, this will be fun, and then I ended up choosing a profession where I'm on my computer all the time so I'm not doing computer games anymore. So I'm reading instead because thank god.
Darien (42:53.782)
Yes! Oh my gosh, let's- Uh, yeah, how far are you? What's your favorite weapon?
DJ (42:54.057)
Thanks for watching!
Darien (43:02.881)
Same.
Darien (43:06.743)
Oh wow.
DJ (43:11.293)
Heheheheheheh Rough
Darien (43:12.948)
Yeah!
Manasa (43:16.857)
But I loved the art and I heard, and it has like one of the highest rated games and it was on sale so I bought it. So I think I made like 6% of the way through. Like he's still in the top levels of the underworld. No, like, but I love the art. Oh, absolutely not.
Darien (43:20.622)
Beautiful.
Darien (43:28.254)
Oh, you've never got, oh! You have not escaped yet. Beautiful. I gotta know, who are you first, who are you trying to romance first?
DJ (43:30.998)
Oh, rough.
Manasa (43:41.133)
You can romance, I see that I don't know anything.
Darien (43:43.286)
I was about to be like, did you get far enough in the dialogue to learn you can romance characters? You can romance, you can romance Than, you can romance Megara, and you can romance Doosa. You can also do them all at the same time. You don't have to do, they don't care. They don't get jealous, it's excellent.
DJ (43:43.721)
laughs
Manasa (43:48.453)
that's a me- i'm gonna have to get back into it
DJ (43:54.61)
Mm-hmm.
Because it's all three different types of love.
Yeah.
Manasa (44:03.835)
Okay, I might have to, now that I'm just kind of chilling, I might have to tap back into that.
Darien (44:04.31)
great. Yes, I also I want to talk I think the way Hades is portrayed in Hades game is so uniquely different than any other way he is portrayed in any piece of media wherein he is not the outright villainous villain a la Disney Hades where he's like scheming and smirking and causing harm to like uplift his own power.
But we're also not getting like a romance, cinnamon roll, kind version of Hades, because he will kill his own son if he has to. Like, he's very harsh, and I think it's a very...
DJ (44:42.249)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (44:49.134)
accurate in this nature of interpretation to what Hades represents, where he is like stat like very like there is no escape, no one leaves the underworld, that applies to my own kid, I don't care what you're trying to do. And no spoilers for Hades, I guess, because I would very much want you to be able to experience as that character grows and the relationship between Zagreus and Hades grows and you get more insight into Hades’ motivations and the reasons he behaves as he does to Zagreus. Chef's Kiss, so good. It doesn't make it okay, but it makes it a fascinating take on the King of the Underworld.
Manasa (45:25.726)
Mm-hmm.
Manasa (45:32.341)
I will definitely try to get back into that. I just, I kept dying and I got so frustrated and then I just never went back to it. I'm not good at keeping up with games.
Darien (45:37.502)
Oh, you know, hey, that's fair. The good news is the actually only way to progress in the story is you have to die. If you don't die, it doesn't matter if you escape. You're never going to get build relationships or get plot.
DJ (45:51.193)
Yeah, you get a lot of rewards for just going through the level.
Manasa (45:51.642)
Mmm. Okay, well that's good to know.
Darien (45:55.682)
Mm-hmm. It's literally like the...
DJ (45:57.241)
and you spend them after you die.
Darien (46:04.745)
Yeah, it's charming.
Darien (46:07.982)
I think. I wanted to mention once upon a time because we talked about it in the last episode where we had Robert because as we mentioned last episode they had a god-awful season that was in the underworld and Hades was there and I only mentioned because he has this weird line about how Zeus is my big brother and he got everything. It's like that is factually incorrect actually to the myth. Famously Zeus is actually the youngest.
DJ (46:14.502)
again.
Manasa (46:30.412)
Mmm.
Manasa (46:36.754)
It's like every single word.
DJ (46:39.065)
Yeah, but in the Disney one, it is in fact, he is the little brother because Zeus says at the start of the movie, little brother, how you liking the party?
Darien (46:51.682)
Does he?
DJ (46:53.117)
Pretty sure, yeah.
Darien (46:56.102)
He just says, Hades, my brother, how are you liking the part? We'll have to watch it again, I guess. Yeah, can't get into that. It just, I'm, it's the one thing that like, so it's like, I get dangerously close to saying, no, you did a bad adaptation, when they're like fundamental things that, I'm probably changing everything or altering things or reinterpreting things for the culture you're telling a story for, but it's like, no, but fundamentally.
DJ (46:57.989)
Nah, I'm sure he says little brother.
Manasa (47:12.217)
Hehehehehe
DJ (47:12.352)
Hahaha!
Darien (47:21.79)
Zeus is the youngest because that's how the story worked. That's how Rhea saved him. Like when Persephone is in the underworld in the middle of summer. The hell are we doing, gang? Read one goddamn book. The point of summer is that she's not in the underworld. What are we doing? This is Darien Plutz, the lightning thief movie on blast.
DJ (47:22.077)
There should be, yeah.
DJ (47:31.017)
I'm sorry.
Manasa (47:43.209)
She sleeps with the child. Oh god.
Darien (47:45.55)
I can't even! Uh, yeah, right, that's the thing. It's like, wow, this cast? Chef's kiss so good. I'm so sorry.
Manasa (47:47.833)
What a stacked cast though.
DJ (47:47.87)
It's very strange.
Manasa (47:54.446)
Um, yeah.
Darien (47:56.798)
I feel like we did gloss over Lore Olympus just a little bit. And I'd love to speak on it just for a second because I weirdly feel like we don't often get guests who also have read all of Lore Olympus. So, mm-hmm.
Manasa (48:00.461)
Mmm.
DJ (48:00.621)
Hades and lower Olympus is wonderful.
DJ (48:09.649)
That's a little strange.
Manasa (48:12.905)
I am a big fan. I bought my friend the physical copy when it came out because I wanted her to read it and it's just Oh such a big fan. The art, the story line big fan Yeah, and it's also been fun to watch her art progress like from the beginning of the series Where it was a little bit a different style and she kind of felt come more comfortable with her art and then added music to it Oh, I love it. I'm a big fan
Darien (48:16.862)
Mm-hmm. Wise.
Darien (48:22.09)
Rachel Smith is so talented. Yep, yep.
DJ (48:22.569)
Very pretty.
Darien (48:28.182)
Yeah!
Darien (48:34.506)
Mm-hmm. Oh, beautiful. Yep, I love Hades as a narrative allegory for overcoming trauma. And simultaneously early in the story being a narrative allegory for allowing the trauma that you have not successfully overcome to continue to allow you to put yourself in situations where you are being mistreated because you think that is what you deserve based on the trauma you experienced. And...
Manasa (48:48.434)
Mm-hmm.
Manasa (49:02.456)
Yeah.
Darien (49:03.174)
how the only way to be able to overcome that and also establish better relationship is you have to admit that and work on that. And sometimes it's okay if the reason you're willing to put in that work is because you met someone who you want to grow for.
Manasa (49:19.989)
Yeah, I really love that. Also how Apollo is just like the worst person ever. And that's the first time I've seen him like that.
Darien (49:26.134)
Holy shit! Yeah, that's the matter of fact of like, yes, this is absolutely how you should actually be writing Apollo. Except for Rick Riden. Uh, Apollo is a good boy who tried very, very hard. Okay? I like him in Trials of Apollo. He's growing.
DJ (49:30.899)
Yeah.
Manasa (49:41.945)
Hehehehe
DJ (49:42.561)
I was gonna say.
Manasa (49:48.689)
Yeah. Yeah, I can see that.
DJ (49:50.077)
He made some mistakes and he regrets those.
Manasa (49:53.399)
Yeah.
Darien (49:54.242)
Like you said, the gods behave as they are because they are gods and they have no concept of empathy or remorse or consequence. Those are things that only humans have to grapple with.
Darien (50:08.61)
This is not an Apollo episode.
Manasa (50:09.205)
I also love the way- no. But I do love the way in Lore of Olympus you have like the- like Olympus and the godly world is like very modern, but then you go into a mortal world and it's still back in ancient Greece where they're being worshipped. And I really like that those are very clever creative parts.
Darien (50:19.455)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (50:27.447)
Yes!
Darien (50:30.89)
Yeah, I think it also serves to demonstrate the distance between gods and mortals and why gods would just so be callous about mortals because they are so nothing compared to the gods.
DJ (50:31.657)
I like that one a lot.
DJ (50:42.983)
Yeah.
Darien (50:45.59)
Rachel, every time, every chapter, we're on hiatus right now and I'm dying. But.
DJ (50:47.805)
Very good. I know. I just imagine the people who didn't fast pass sitting there seeing three chapters that they could read right now.
Manasa (50:48.109)
So well done. I know, I know.
Darien (50:56.906)
You just gotta find out. I just do it, it's okay. It's if you can, it's always worth it. All right.
Manasa (51:02.581)
I've never used the FastPass, I've always waited.
DJ (51:05.647)
Oof.
Darien (51:05.894)
Oh my gosh, do you have three chapters you could be reading right now but you haven't fast passed?
Manasa (51:09.909)
I have a lot of chapters because I took a little break from trying to be on my phone less and I failed because I'm on TikTok so much more. And so I was thinking about it the other day and I was like, I have so many to catch up on. I have like quite a few.
Darien (51:15.247)
That's wise.
Darien (51:25.042)
I'm so glad I didn't mention what happened in the most recent chapter then. Cause I was almost just like, oh good, we have a guest who's written all wonderful. We can, I'm so glad I didn't just be like, and then could you believe? So uh, no, let me tell, okay. What did I do when we were on your podcast? So let me tell you about Disney Sea actually. So what I didn't get into is these books. All right. And they're about, no. So I think.
DJ (51:28.753)
Yeah.
Manasa (51:28.953)
Yeah.
Manasa (51:32.289)
Hehehe
Manasa (51:36.763)
Yeah, almost there though.
DJ (51:37.37)
Isn't it crazy that-
Manasa (51:44.404)
Hehehe
Manasa (51:49.229)
Hehehe
Darien (51:54.555)
I think we're in a space to wrap. But do we have any other like, Hades thoughts, things we didn't get to cover? Like this was the episode for you to come on and like talk about Hades. And I wanna make sure you felt like you got your time's worth.
Manasa (52:02.437)
Oh my god. Yes. So sorry. Another thing that in, not pop culture, but that exists that also made me kind of obsessed with Hades, but it's on the other end where he's the villain, is the statue, the Rape of Persephone. It's made out of marble and it's by Bernini and it's in Italy and it was made in like the 1620s I think. But it's made, the reason that it is one of the most stunning.
DJ (52:05.31)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (52:16.061)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (52:19.326)
Oh.
Manasa (52:31.865)
pieces I have ever seen and it's the detail like the fact that it's made out of marble and if you zoom in on his Hands the way they've imprinted into Persephone's because he's basically thrown her over his shoulder Yeah, and so his fingers are like in her skin and it looks like skin and someone to have made that out of marble is Insane to me and so that is one of the pieces of art that like always kept like I think about Statues that I really love
Darien (52:42.25)
Yes, he's grabbing her.
DJ (52:50.269)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (52:52.014)
Mm-hmm.
Manasa (53:00.685)
It's a horrible story and it's one of the few stories that's like, he captures the story and the sadness of like the fact that Persephone did not consent to any of this, which is I think very often overlooked really well into what he created. So I mean, that was one thing that also in the lineage of like loving creative that really ignited and cemented him as someone that I really like.
Darien (53:02.254)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (53:13.152)
Yeah.
Darien (53:26.324)
Mm-hmm.
Manasa (53:26.377)
as like, just as a character, whether he's good or bad, I just like, think he's interesting.
Darien (53:30.966)
Yeah, it's the kind of character that offers storytellers and creatives a lot to work with. Yeah, I'm looking at the statue right now and yeah, it is like his hand on her, like as she's leaning away from him and like it's, yeah, you're right. And it is, you would tell, wow, you definitely spent more time on those fingers and polishing that than you did on whatever his mouth is doing, didn't you? You know, it's okay. I cannot, cannot judge. I couldn't do it.
Manasa (53:44.993)
It's so good.
Darien (53:59.782)
It's just shredded. Never skip a day at the gym.
Darien (54:07.638)
What? Yes! Like, what is that? He only washes it in cold water? Absolutely. That hair has never seen warm water in its life.
DJ (54:18.185)
The River of Lethe is actually a great conditioner.
Manasa (54:18.361)
No. That's it. That's what it is.
DJ (54:22.845)
Thanks for watching!
Darien (54:23.7)
Mm-hmm. DJ, I don't want us to leave without you being able to tell us about how, oh, you told us about Hades last week in Smite, actually. No, Chiron, it was Karen and.
DJ (54:29.081)
Yeah, no, no. It was Karen and Cerberus. Yeah, he's in Smite. He's fun. He's good. He's annoying to deal with at times, as is literally everybody in the game. Yeah, every single god in the game is annoying to deal with. Just outright. Yep.
Darien (54:34.558)
Yes. So DJ, how's Ian Smite? Yeah?
Darien (54:41.582)
I feel like that's what you say about every character.
is good, fun, and annoying to deal with.
DJ (54:52.485)
He's got some fun skins. I can read his lore if we want to do that.
Darien (54:52.854)
Okay.
Darien (54:57.198)
Yes, I actually kind of want to finish up on the Smite lore because uh Manasa, I don't know if you know this the Smite lore Borderline unhinged every time what goes weirdly hard for just a battle royale game
Manasa (54:57.593)
You know it's here.
DJ (55:07.516)
Yeah.
Manasa (55:07.671)
Really?
That's so funny.
DJ (55:12.153)
Yeah, because they have their own overarching story of their lore, which is like, oh, well, every god has a reason for being at this battleground right now. And it's kind of funny. But since he's one of the older ones, it might not have set in for that one yet. So it's, I'll just go ahead and start. Inevitably, death sends everyone to Hades, god of the underworld. In the end, he always gets his way. Eldest son of the Titan Cronos and Rhea.
Darien (55:29.218)
Okay.
DJ (55:41.453)
Hades was swallowed by his father as an infant, along with five other siblings. Zeus, the younger brother, escaped this fate and freed them once he'd grown strong enough to battle Cronos. Together, the six siblings defeated the Titans and banished them to the dark realm of Tartarus. Now the reigning gods, Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades, drew lots for dominion. Hades drew the underworld.
Of the few that have entered the underworld and come back, all speak dismally of the place, never wishing to return. Yet Hades himself rarely leaves the subterranean realm, constantly seeking ways to grow the numbers of the dead. When he desired a wife, Hades captured the radiant Persephone, daughter of the goddess Demeter. Concealed in the underworld, none could reach her, so Demeter cursed to the land with a great famine. The other gods pleaded with her to end it, lest she destroy mankind, but she would not relent until her daughter was returned.
Darien (56:19.797)
Oh.
DJ (56:36.645)
Hades finally let Persephone leave, though not before feeding her pomegranate seeds. Having consumed the fruit, she was bound forever to Hades and required to return to her husband once per year to eat of the seeds again. This, it is said, is a time of mourning and the cause of winter. While many fear death and viewed as evil, in truth, Hades endeavors only to keep balance. He is stern but fair as a god of the dead and...
God of the dead and the underworld, he views his authority on this matter absolute, forbidding anyone to leave his realm and growing wrathful when disobeyed or when someone tries to cheat death or steal from him. For everyone, death is unavoidable and service to Hades is inevitable, even the gods.
Darien (57:26.338)
See, at the end it goes hard. Service to Hades is inevitable either. Yeah, you're right, that one was very much just, so here's the lore. Like, here's just some standard lore.
Manasa (57:28.751)
Yes.
DJ (57:33.694)
Yeah, I think they started doing that more when they added their first pantheon, or like their newest pantheon, like their first new pantheon, which was the Japanese one. I can't, I couldn't exactly tell you when they started doing that, but I started noticing that pretty s-
Darien (57:48.406)
I got curious, I'm like, wait, is Persephone in Smite? Yes, she is. Her lore does go hard. It gives a very different picture of the story you just told us. And hold up, hold up. We will talk about that when we get to Persephone because I love what I see here and her design, so good.
DJ (57:53.545)
She looks awesome. Oh yeah, she's one of the new ones. Yeah, I think it's more along the lines of she's also leading the underworld.
DJ (58:08.945)
Oh yeah. Her design is sick. Like honestly, I think it's one of the coolest designs for PersephoneI've seen.
Darien (58:19.906)
Manasa thank you so much for joining us and for sharing your... I'm just so delighted that your love for Hades comes from this childhood book series. And thank you for sharing it with us. That was so charming and delightful.
Manasa (58:35.749)
Hehehe
Manasa (58:41.429)
Of course, I hope you guys, if you guys pick it up, I hope it holds up, because that's what I remember from it, so.
Darien (58:45.496)
Yes.
I'm so jazzed. Please tell our listeners where they can find more of you because they're going to want more of you.
Manasa (58:55.329)
Well, I have a Percy Jackson podcast. It's a kind of a read-along. We go chapter by chapter. Currently we are starting the last book of the Trials of Apollo. That is Camp Halfpod. So you can find us on any social media, Camp Halfpod, and me and my co-host Erin. We kind of have an interesting vibe and we've had Darian and DJ on before. So if you wanna hear them again, they're in one of our more recent episodes.
Darien (59:20.514)
Yes.
DJ (59:21.714)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (59:24.734)
It was delightful. It was the one where Jason died y'all. So you know, you're going to want to listen to that. Start there, go back to the beginning.
DJ (59:29.777)
Yeah.
Manasa (59:31.423)
And for... I also have, I didn't know Jason was gonna die, so they got to experience that with me.
Darien (59:37.546)
No, so good. Oh, that's so funny. You were so mean to the kid.
DJ (59:41.585)
That was a rough situation.
Manasa (59:43.954)
I was so sad. I was so mad at myself.
DJ (59:46.729)
Hehehehehehe
Darien (59:47.806)
And you did mention a TikTok. Do you wanna plug your TikTok?
Manasa (59:51.573)
Um, no, I don't post anything on TikTok. I am just a viewer. Yeah, I lurk. Yeah, so nothing to post there, but I do love watching TikToks. Unfortunately, I need to stop because it's consumed a little bit too much of my life.
Darien (59:55.59)
Oh, you lurk, got it.
Darien (01:00:08.202)
You know what? Fair. I think that is common for anyone who falls into social media.
Manasa (01:00:13.734)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (01:00:17.558)
Well, thank you again so much for joining us. It's been an absolute pleasure.
Manasa (01:00:22.489)
Thank you so much for having me.
Darien (01:00:43.766)
Listeners, thank you for listening. What do you think about Hades? Are we wrong for liking this character? Did we miss your favorite Hades in pop culture? Come yell at us on Instagram. Or if you're a patron, you can do so on Discord.
DJ (01:01:04.538)
Thank you guys so much for joining us.
Darien (01:01:00.474)
And until next time, don't be like Zeus.
DJ (01:01:10.153)
Don’t be like Zeus.