Story 91: Midgard in the Middle (w/ Fran McMahon)
“I would die for these ducks.”
Queer author of queer stories Fran McMahon (they/them) returns to the pod to muse about the most mid place in all the realms: Midgard.
Other topics include the unfortunate optics of the “Vikings reached the United States” theory, lore behind a duckling statue that helped ease US-Soviet tensions during the end of the Cold War, the base elements of the realms AKA some dead dude, speculation regarding the length of a world-circling serpent, DJ’s new favorite inappropriate slang, DJ’s BIG FEELINGS about which system of measurement should be used for weather, and Fran’s AMAZING new book that you need to pre-order RIGHT NOW!!
Pre-order The Spiral of Life: https://books2read.com/u/4Nl1ON
Get more Fran!: https://www.instagram.com/adoseoffran/
Spoilers for SMITE, Ducktales (2017), The Originals, Marvel Comics, and MCU
Content Warning: This episode contains mentions of and conversations about colonization, death, murder, white supremacy, racism, and violence
Wizards (Beyond) Waverly Place Bonus Episode available now on Patreon! https://www.patreon.com/musesofmythology
About Us
Muses of Mythology was created and co-hosted by Darien and DJ Smartt.
Our music is Athens Festival by Martin Haene. Our cover art is by Audrey Miller. Find her on Instagram @bombshellnutshellart
Love the podcast? Support us on Patreon and get instant access to bloopers, outtakes, and bonus episodes! Patreon.com/musesofmythology
Tell us what you like most about the show by leaving us a review at Lovethepodcast.com/musesofmythology
Find us @MusesOfMyth on Instagram. Find all of our episodes and episode transcripts at MusesOfMythology.com
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Darien (00:00.172)
Muses Mythology is a spoiler-heavy podcast. We're going to discuss not just the events of this book, but the Ridenverse as a whole and really anything that we feel is relevant. You can find full spoiler warnings in the show notes. I was also, as I was listening to the episode and listening to my dear friend Spiral, checking the calendar to be like, all right, so how long until Owen's trip to the U.S. so I can check on him in person? OK, good, good. Soon, soon. Someone needs to check in on that polite British boy. I'm worried about him.
That's an understatement.
Darien (00:30.693)
you
Darien (00:46.008)
Welcome to Muse of Mythology, a podcast where we explore how ancient myths become part of modern pop culture through the lens of Rick Raritan's Magnus Chase and the gods of Asgard. This is Story 90, Midgard. I'm your co-host and podcasting muse, Darian Smart, joining me is my co-host and brother, DJ.
How's everybody doing today? I'm DJ The Muse and I just finished Dragon Ball Super on Monday. What? Yes, that episode that you left on, that was last episode.
You finished?
Darien (01:10.568)
well, I I had to go help a friend. I had to go help a friend. It's very good. Okay, we can't talk about this right now. This is not the space. We should do bonus episode about Dragon Ball, I think. We can absolutely justify a remit episode about Dragon Ball. We are totally the people who should talk about Journey to the West. All right, but until then, shall we discuss this a little more and muse around in the garden?
Absolutely.
Hey DJ! What's up? I said we're talking about Midgard. Now you may recall, you DJ, and then dear listeners may recall that at the end of our last actual story episode, I said we were going to be talking about Jotunheim.
Yes.
DJ (01:54.188)
Yeah, but, Shit happens.
Yes, and then we decided to instead do a live episode from our panel at Boise Comic Arts Festival, which we told no one we were going to do because on the off chance it didn't work. I didn't want anyone to know about the failure. And then that shuffled some of the scheduling around because this episode absolutely needs to come out before September 22nd. DJ, do you know why this episode needs to come out before September 22nd?
because our guest is a writer.
Yes, our guest is joining us. We are joined again by fantastic guest, friend of the pod, Fran, a British, and they apologize for that, fantasy and romance author, exclusively writing queer stories and wants to contribute to the world of queer fiction. Their latest book, The Spiral of Life, a Percy Jackson-esque contemporary fantasy exploring the world of Celtic mythology comes out on September 22nd, which means you, dear listener, can pre-order it right now while you're-
listening to Fran say hello say hello Fran Fran thank you so much for for joining us I'm so excited to get you back on
Fran (03:00.046)
Hi.
Fran (03:10.264)
Yeah, no I am, very excited to come back and talk about Royal Inverse-esque stuff and-
Yeah, it's been a hot sec for you, so I'm happy to pull you back into the fold.
yeah, very much a hot sec.
Well, my friend, do you want to tell us a little bit about your relationship with this series in particular? You never actually got to covering this one on your podcast.
No, didn't. Unfortunately, because it was timeline order, I had a long way to go. Well, I say that. think I was like two books away because I got near the end of House of Hades. The world then sucked and so I stopped. yeah, think timeline I was like two books away. But yeah, so I didn't get to cover on maybe three. I don't remember now. Maybe it three. Anyway. Yeah. Yes, I didn't get to cover. But they are some of my favourite books. I did like lots of videos about
Darien (03:38.881)
Yes.
Fran (04:03.664)
them on my YouTube channel when I was also still doing that before I was also like, nah the world sucks I'm gonna stop that.
Do things because we love them, not because we have to.
Exactly. And I hope one day I can love it again. But, yeah, so it's one of my favourite series, mainly just because I love just the fact that...
The main character is, though obviously he's still a fighter and Magnus still does fighting with swords, he's a healer at heart. And I love that there is a character whose whole thing is instead of being a badass, incredible fighter, not only is he not technically considering Jack is doing all the work, he is mostly a healer than he is a fighter. And I just kind of love that. I that was a really interesting way to take a main character of a fighter.
Yeah. No, I love it. It gives me very Steven Universe vibes in that specifically was writing a character who he wanted to subvert the expected tropes for this kind of like young man hero of this magical adventure narrative. And like as the healer, as the protector, as the way he he beats the bad guy, not by beating him into submission, but by not even by insulting him, but by literally raising all of his friends up. It's just
Darien (05:27.534)
It's good. So we were talking about Midgard in this episode. It is the, it is the place. It is the most normal. This is the world. This is the world that we, it's, it's earth. It's the world that we, is it earth? Is it the other planets? Is it the universe? Where is everything else located? I didn't, I didn't put that in my notes. Who knows what a realm even means.
or how it even means.
Darien (05:56.118)
Great point, DJ.
many different things. have seen realm used in terms of dimensions, terms of planets, terms of universes. Just, it's a realm, but it's our realm.
It's our realm. Yes. It's a realm and it's ours. So here's what we know about Midgard in the Magnus Chase universe. Now, besides the fact that this is the universe where literally all of the Rick Riordan books of the Riordan verse of the mythology books take place in, we also know specifically that Boston is the center of Midgard. It is literally in the trunk of the World Tree. DJ Fran, do either of you know the canonical reason for why that is?
I didn't even remember there was a canonical reason.
because Midgard is technically like the mirror's body.
Darien (06:53.034)
Mhm, mhm. Interesting, interesting friend. Would you like to wager a guess?
And it's probably gonna be wrong, I'm probably gonna offend a lot of Bostonians, which is really funny because most of my American family are from Boston. It's the only reason why I support some of the teams there, it's because I'm contractually obligated. But is it because Midcard is the most boring and Boston is boring?
It's a tramming!
Darien (07:11.352)
Mm-hmm.
Darien (07:18.574)
wow Fran, wow I don't We have listeners who live in Boston I'm gonna say something incorrect not something mean
They'll agree. I thought you did!
DJ (07:33.646)
I'm sure a lot of Bostonians are actually offended by this.
Like Oxford and Boston are like twins in terms of like the vibes and like Oxford's boring and I know like all the people I know who live in Boston say it's boring. So my head I like could that be it because Midgard is like in comparison to the other realms it's kind of
Okay.
DJ (07:54.444)
This is this true.
It's always Sunny and Alfheim.
That should be the name of the Alfheim episode.
That's what I meant! The Alfheim episode will be, always like, this episode is called Midgard in the Middle. So, I'm on a run. So Fran, you were actually right earlier when you said I don't think there's a canonical reason or you didn't remember one. This was a trick question. There is no canonical in-story reason for why it's Boston. It's not like, you know, the Empire State Building is Olympus because it's like this beacon of Western Civ and it's just moved all time. We don't have that. That's...
That's just not a thing. In fact, attempting to answer the question, why is Boston the center of Midgard, drove dear friend and host of Through the Mist, Owen, to near madness in a recent episode. And so I, I, Darien, will not be attempting to answer that question because I...
DJ (09:03.616)
Rick didn't want to make another Western civilization mistake. I just don't want to do that. think it just... we'll say it and just like leave it at that.
You know what, yes.
Darien (09:14.648)
So to Owen's credit, he does come up with a pretty good answer because he refuses to let Rick Riordan win. And I respect him immensely for that. A couple of things, since this is a Midgard episode and with the Boston of it all, like being the heart of Midgard, the world tree, the trunk is literally right there. Like it is there. So I wanted to like...
Take this time to do a little bit, since we're talking about Midgard, since we're talking about the real world, I want to take the time to talk a little bit about the real world relationship with the Nordic people, with like the quote Vikings, in the context of the narrative that Magnus Chase is presenting. So first I want to ask, did the Vikings spend time in North America?
Darien (10:06.104)
Yes. Friend, you know more details? Yes, the very, very north. We know they have a well-documented settlement that was in Greenland, and that settlement went for about 500 years. And I don't know if Greenland counts as North America, but boom, they were definitely there. And then we discovered in the early 1900s a settlement that is in Newfoundland, which is an island off the coast of Canada. And then the northernmost tip of that island, we found a settlement that is
archaeologically confirmed to have been where the Nordic people, where the Vikings, spent some time. This settlement is now called, and I'm going to butcher this, and I am so very sorry if we have French listeners, and I'm assuming this is French, it's French-Canadian, so that makes sense to me, La Nice Os Medos. Sorry, gang, I tried. I added some mustard on it for you. And so that was a confirmed settlement that was, for some reason,
It didn't last 500 years. It was pretty abruptly abandoned. So they didn't hang out there for very long. But we know for a fact, yes, the Vikings did reach North America. They did in fact end up here. And it's not just the archaeological evidence that supports this. In fact, actually there were stories in the oral tradition in the Icelandic sagas that indicated, hey, we went really far away and found some places.
So the saga specifically is the one I'm referring to is going to be the saga of Eric the Red. And this tells of Leif Erikson. Yes, that one. And he explored past Greenland to Hulaland, the land of flat zones, Markland, the land of forests, and Vinland, the land of wine. And the North American Atlantic coast is widely accepted to be the Vinland that is described in this saga.
Like, there were just things, there were maps, were icons, that just, it tracks, were things that were just scribed, that it's like, yeah, this literally happened. This guy literally did this thing and made it across the ocean. And that's really cool. And in fact, I, this episode cannot be all about this, or it would be so much longer, but there's a deep dive into other, like, theorizing of, like, what exactly, where exactly is Vinland? Is it land of wines? Is it land of pastures? Like, what does it...
Darien (12:27.18)
That's a really fun deep dive that dear listeners, I recommend jumping into cause that's fun and just not what I'm going to spend a lot of time on here. But those are the points I want to make. Now, the second thing I want to talk about, new question. Did the Vikings spend time in the region that would become the United States of America?
No, because vampire diaries
I'm a friend. I was not.
You
Okay, do you want to elaborate?
Fran (13:00.92)
So the Vampire Diaries and the originals, I think it mostly the originals that covered this actually, is the series about sexy vampires in the southern states of America, I don't remember which one. The originals are the original vampires of the people who became vampires, and they were Vikings that lived in the US of A.
Incredible.
Yeah, and I remember watching it and going, that doesn't feel right. Googling it and then going, hmm, yes, I was correct. Not agreeing with the rest of storyline of them being...
the first vampires, which was cool, but then also being the first Viking settlement in the whole of the United States of America to the point that they left cave markings showing that they were there. And I was like, no, no, I knew that there were fake ones. Maybe they were making fake ones and they weren't, I don't know. But I remember seeing it and Googling it because I wanted to see if it was wrong. And it was because it
And it was.
Fran (14:07.006)
It's the vampire diaries in the originals. The writers do not do research.
No, no, they do not. Yeah, no, no, no is the exact correct answer. Any quote evidence that has been found of a Viking settlement in what is the United States today has been proven to be either just a straight forgery or a complete misinterpretation of Native American pictographs or arc.
Archaeological, that's not artifact. Is artifact the word I want? think artifact is the word I want. Yeah. the, so that's just like, it's not, this is not a thing. It's, is, it kind of ties into the Vinland thing where it's a little bit like there's theories and there have been like respected researchers who are experts in the field who have proposed, Hey, we found a thing. Maybe it's a Viking settlement. And then they do research, they look into it and they come out they're like, it's not.
It sounds right.
Darien (15:05.752)
So this isn't like a crazy stupid thing to theorize. there is, tying back to the Vinlin thing, there is some theory that maybe it was main that they were talking about specifically with the grape thing, but like, there's been no evidence to support that, but that theory isn't so like stupid, right? The problem with it is that when folks have tried to really push it forward with really lack of evidence,
It's usually because they are trying to drive forward a narrative of like white supremacy, specifically getting in that like the quote, like Aryan race and the Nordic peoples and the noble adventure, like that kind of icky thing. And, and that can be like, well, okay, hold on. Like, why does it matter if Leif Erikson was the first white guy to do it? Christopher Columbus is also a white guy. Fun, fun fact on historical.
US racism, dear listeners. For a long time, the Italians not considered white people.
know, because racism is just a flavor. Yeah, just you want the right kind of pasty pale person. So when you have folks in these like, early night, late 1800s, early 1900s being like, no, but the Vikings came here first. And you're like, because white people are so great. You're like, why does it matter Christopher Columbus? That's, that's the extra layer of flavor that that is being missed. So that
I
Fran (16:15.854)
fresh.
Darien (16:40.238)
That ties us into a question I had. Hey, why is there a statue of Leif Erikson in Boston? Because there is. Uncle Randolph points to it as if it is evidence of the fact that we knew all along that the Vikings were here and there was a magic sword in the harbor.
people like Lee Ferrikson.
People do be liking Leif Erikson. Someone who really liked Leif Erikson was an agricultural chemist who specifically reformulated baking soda. And his name was Eben Norton Horsford. And in 1885, he commissioned the sculptor and poet Anne Whitney, shout out to women doing cool shit in the past, because this is legitimately cool, to
create a sculpture of Leif Erikson to put in in Boston. Because Horsford was obsessed with the theory that Vikings found the land that would become the United States. And he did a ton of quote research on this and wrote a ton of pamphlets about it. And just
but specifically not just, did they get to North America? He focused specifically on the area of New England where he was from and just did a lot of bending over backwards to try to really prove this theory. this is, again, this is the 1880s. And even in the 1880s, the Buckwild past, historians and archeologists of that era were like, nah, this is bullshit, my man.
DJ (18:17.24)
Crackpot we'd like no, it's just
Yes, so this this statue that he had commissioned was essentially propaganda to raise awareness about his theory or not his there he didn't come up with it but about this theory he really liked and was desperate to prove and Like yeah, they didn't
That's mad crazy.
That is mad, yes. So these are the things I kind of wanted to just touch on a little bit and explore in the podcast for a minute, because it definitely adds a layer of optics with Uncle Randolph being right. And that his theory, it is like, he has no evidence for his theory. He's like laughed out of Harvard. It's not so much he has this pet theory. Like I said, this is not like a super weird thing to be like, this is possible. But he was so adamant that it was true and had
No evidence. He is this baking soda chemist from the 1800s building statues as Uncle Randolph. And the fact that he was right and all the layers that go into this theory, we have a little bit of a Western civilization situation all over again.
Fran (19:24.622)
Yeah
I think it's fun. Like, it's just, it's Rick doing that thing where it's like, he was a crackpot thing. Yeah.
Yeah!
Not to say it's all good, but this one was fun. Come on.
Friend?
Fran (19:44.91)
It's a very classic Rick of, you know, taking kind of problematic things and being like, hey, but what if cool people are involved with it? And I was like, no, no, Bad, my dude. Yeah, bad.
Yeah.
Like it is as in and of itself the idea of like, we don't, haven't found evidence of it yet, but like, Leif Erikson, the Viking explorer made it to Boston. Like that in and of itself is a fun thing. But when you peel back the layers of like one, the very white supremist, like foundation of why some people really want this to be true and not just, hey, Vinland is fun theory. And then the rampant problems of like pseudo-archaeology.
And just deciding something's true because it's the fun thing. And then how that layers into other wild ass things that follow that. It's just like, okay, we have a thing. Now this is not me saying Rick bad, don't do this, but it also kind of ties back into we just made also also.
Darien (20:52.62)
How? How is this the heart of Midgard when the World Tree... but not... but the heart was not in fact where the Nordic people were operating out of. This place they visited very, very briefly. This is the trunk of the World Tree. This is the nexus you can travel through.
They felt it in their gut. was like, yeah, we know it's out there. We got to find it.
Hahaha
It's definitely the hope of putting it in Boston feels like, well hey it's near New York and it's in America so I don't have to do much and I can visit it quite easily from Bricks perspective. that's fair! Yeah, very fair.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
DJ (21:42.164)
lines above like I want to be able to tie this character to Annabeth and have Annabeth in this series without having to fly her halfway across the world to an area that she probably really doesn't want to go back to.
Also fair.
Yeah. Which does make it kind of almost weird because like she's in New York and in San Francisco at either point because her dad lives in San Francisco. And she's originally from Georgia. So it makes even less sense that she's in Boston.
It's not Georgia, Virginia. Same letters, the families from Boston, yes. The New York, Boston, and Virginia are like stupid close to each other. Like in the scheme of.
Virginia.
DJ (22:29.902)
It's like like in the grand scheme of America How like I might consider the UK a little small because it's smaller than even Idaho Mm-hmm, New England's like the size of the UK
Yes.
Darien (22:41.582)
Yeah, yeah, so that would also be like someone from Virginia might be like we're not close to Boston Shut up, and I'll be like I can drive the distance between six of your states, and I'm still in Idaho I don't want to hear it. It's That's close. That's the same state. That's the same you could be the same zip code You have the same area codes two hours away over here like I don't know what to tell you so That's what I just want to spend some time on that because it's like yes. It's fun. Yes. It's interesting, but it's like We listen we challenge the narratives here
from you, that's close.
Darien (23:10.764)
And we have friends, so we gotta do it. It's the optics. No, go on, go on.
It's the optics. Oh sorry, Just because it's also me. was just like, it just kind of shows, especially considering the time this one came out, because was like, 2016 I think was when the first Magnus Chase book came out, wasn't it? Or 2015.
DJ (23:35.634)
2015 cuz I
2015 yep
2015. So like it was a time when Rick could have done some research into this just to consider it. Yeah and just firstly find out the possible you know issues behind it.
Do a quick Google.
DJ (23:54.99)
think there's also writing trials at this time.
Which is also my guy
Yeah
He a lot of his plate.
Yeah, but listen that's a reason it's not an excuse
Fran (24:02.956)
to stop.
It's an excuse bro two bucks a year for three years in a row
You
Yeah, which he did as well with King Chronicles and we know how that went.
We can't say, he got better at it. Well give him that! He got better at it!
DJ (24:18.456)
These are.
Trials is my favorite series by him, so...
Mm-hmm. That's true. So I want to talk about one more statue while we're here.
And it's also the nexus of the World Tree, the point where you can enter and exit onto the branches to travel the realms. And it is the make way for ducklings. Y'all, I really wanted to figure out why it was this specifically like, was there a reason? Is there any lore? Like, why isn't it the Leif Erikson statue?
placed in a position that happens to be the moment because it's drawn by the... whatever that... like DJ said, the Vikings knew it was out there drawn... No, it's not. It's this duckling statue. So I did some digging. There are nine of them. god damn it DJs, because there are nine of them. That's it. Okay.
DJ (25:13.358)
It's cause there are nine of them.
Fran (25:18.658)
will say, to protect Darien, it is still stupid. Random ducks. Which also, as Darien noted, because I read through the doc, a bunch of them got stolen at random points as well, so that means one of the realms at one point disappeared.
It's a tip.
DJ (25:24.43)
It's, it's...
Lily, don't give up!
Darien (25:39.788)
Okay, so they did, but not the ones in Boston. The ones in Boston weren't the it was the ones in Moscow. okay. I was about to not, I was like, well, DJ said nine and he was right. I'm not gonna share anything I learned, but okay, I will share a little bit of what I learned. So this duckling thing, it's actually a scene from a children's book called Make Way for Ducklings. It's about this mama and papa duck and they're trying to find a place for their ducklings.
And they end up in the public garden in Boston. That's why it's there. And it was commissioned. The artist is Nancy Skion, Skion, Skone, Skone? Dots. And I was like, oh, wait, is this person maybe like, do they have like Nordic hair? No, no, they're married into that. the person they married is a, they've been loved in the US for a long time. So it's not that either. It's because there's nine. Thank you, DJ. But the statue stretches 35 feet long.
and it depicts Mrs. Mallard and Jack, Cack, Lack, Mack, Nack, Oack, Pack, and Quack.
And so this statue was erected in...
Oh my god, uh, I didn't put the date of when the statue, this original statue was put in. The book's from 1941. I don't have, huh, wow, I know how I missed that. Well, I can tell y'all this, in 1991, a replica was put up in Moscow, in the Soviet Union.
DJ (27:09.272)
That's the year it fell.
It was because in the 80s, the Russia's then first lady, Rassia Gorbachev came to visit Boston with then first lady Barbara Bush. And Gorbachev, yes, she just really liked the ducks.
Hey look I'm looking at this statue and I love these ducks. would die-
I love these ducks. There's a tradition of the neighborhood to dress up the ducks in seasonal attire. It's adorable. It's like super cute. And so they took the steps to recreate the statue in Moscow. And it is, quote, in love and friendship to the children of the Soviet Union on the half of the children of the United States. And this statue was literally like it's said to help ease US-Soviet tensions at the end of the Cold War.
It's also a little bit longer. It's 40 feet long, whereas the Boston one is 35. And yes, as Fran clocked, four of the ducklings were stolen by the year 2000, but they were all replaced in September 2000, and to my knowledge are still there. So like.
Fran (28:14.662)
is that for the ones in Russia? Yeah I was gonna say there were one stolen in Boston as well in 2009.
Yes.
Darien (28:22.732)
Didn't know that! I missed that! No one mentioned that! Or they put a new one in.
So, actually there was also, actually I want take it back, there were others stolen. So I'm just looking at the story now. So there was one in 2009 where Boston police say that a duck, a bronze duckling named Pac has been recovered after being stolen. Then also in 2009, three other ducklings, Quack, Mac and Jack had been stolen at various times and a guy from Weymouth found them.
take one of those.
Darien (28:44.696)
Good. Good.
Fran (28:56.942)
and returned them. again, Rick can research this.
Thanks.
It's so- that would be a funny gag if you suddenly couldn't go to a realm for a while because the was stolen. That's so interesting because I went to like four different places trying to learn about these ducks and they really like to mention that the Soviet ducks got stolen. Oh, the Russia ducks got stolen. But no one wanted to mention that the Boston ducks also got stolen.
They were Soviet desks.
my god, and in 2016!
Darien (29:34.274)
Very recently, these ducks! We need to get eyes on the ducks!
What? Got stolen.
I'd take- I'd definitely take Jack.
just take Jack the Duck.
my God. Okay. So those are all of the real world Bostonian Midgard notes I have because I fell down a rabbit hole and I had to get my money's worth for that time back. So now we're going to get into some myth and first we're to talk about a figure that's not like is referenced in the books, but isn't a super big deal, but it's something that DJ has asked if I'm going to talk about multiple times. So here we are.
Darien (30:17.57)
We're talking about Yamir. DJ, who the hell is this?
I mean.
is a frost giant is the frost giant he is from what i remember the pretty much the ground beneath our feet a lot of dwarves buried in like burrowed into his body became dark elf realm don't remember the name it, Swirl Time? something like that?
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
DJ (30:50.56)
it just so sprouts from and i thought a lot of the world's record through that he's just the
the soil of which the hydrosilus uses, if I remember correctly.
is very poetic, DJ.
true?
I mean, yeah, it is. There's just like, the way you framed it makes it sound very nice and very like organic, right? Like there was this ancient primeval being and when he died, his body became the grass and the antelope eat the grass and you know, that kind of thing. Circle of life. So, let's go to Snorri. I'm gonna bring us over to good old Snorri Starlson in the Prose Edda. And this whole thing is outlined in the Gilfeningening.
Darien (31:39.884)
Right? And I'm going to give us a Spark Notes version. So essentially, yes, there is Ymir. He essentially came from, so we're Muspelheim and we're Niflheim. They didn't overlap, but where the ice of Niflheim could kind of, kind of encounter the hot wind coming off of Muspelheim and it caused it to like drip, drip, drip from that drip, drip, drip into the Geningen app.
is where Ymir came from. And he's just like you said, DJ, he is the OG Frost giant. He's the guy. The guy, yep. And so he, and so then the conversation, like as we recall, this is a conversation between like a human king, Gangleri, and the high, not so high, and thrice as high, high, just as high, and the third, who we assume are like, you know, three parts of Odin. I say this every time, I'm gonna say it again. And he actually asked them like, hey, if he was the first,
is he a god? And they're like, no! Fuck that guy! He's evil! He's made of poison! And that's why all the Jotunheim who come after him are cruel and terrible. first ones were born from sweats and they came from his armpits and from beneath his knees. Fuck that guy! And you're like,
Okay. So then along came a cow who's formed the same way. And that cow started licking some ice and eventually freed this dude by the name of Burry. And Burry had a son, Bor. And Bor took a wife, Bessla, who was the daughter of a giant. No insist here. We've talked about this in the past. And they had three sons, Odin, Vili,
and V. And those three dudes got together and killed Ymir and then put his body in the middle of the Geninga Gap and then formed the world from his body. So you're absolutely right, DJ. And like you said, when I said, is Midgard in the middle? it's like, it's cause Ymir was in the middle of the Geninga Like, yes, but also murder happened. This was not a circle of life.
DJ (34:05.448)
yeah, I mean hey, I got his smite lord pulled up, so...
Well, we'll circle back. We'll put a pin. Good, because I don't have any other evidence of Ymir in pop culture, so I'm glad you've got that.
He is just he's he's just the earth he is well, he's like all right, but he's just like yeah
Nice. So yeah, Ymir, so that's his rundown in the prose edit. Obviously Snorri is pulling this from somewhere and a couple of different places actually. A brief tangent on that. We know it's from like what we have in the poetic edits and also scholars are pretty sure he was probably pulling from some other sources we don't have anymore. Cause some of the details told in his narrative are not replicated in the poetic edits. So that's always just a fun fact. Cause in the poetic edits, essentially we have the...
The seer's prophecy references Ymir being the first entity to exist and just a void of yawning chaos. Grass was there nowhere, essentially. And then later how the gods came together and created dwarves out of Grimnir's blood and from Blond's limbs. And those two words essentially mean blood and then something else in Old Norse that scholars aren't certain of.
Darien (35:23.24)
but they're treated as proper nouns and so are interpreted to be other names for Yamir. And that's how we get like, yeah, and then we made dwarves out of the guy.
you
We can swing by another poem real quick. Vulfrandir's sayings. And it's that name wisdom game back and forth between Odin and a giant. And when Odin says like, you know, Hey, where did the earth come from or the sky above? And Vafthrandir says, from Ymir's flesh, the earth was shaped, the mountains from his bones, the sky from his skull of the frost giant and the sea from his blood. Which, so metal.
Hell yeah.
And then we get that same thing, essentially almost verbatim reiterated in Grimnir sayings, which once again, a wisdom contest. Where did the world come from? It came from Ymir. So we have that as a reoccurring motif of this primeval being Ymir. And I keep using the word primeval because that's the word I kept finding. Usually I'd use primordial and I don't really know what the difference is. like primordial. Yeah, primeval is the word used for Ymir.
DJ (36:24.908)
here in the Smite lore, so...
Darien (36:30.626)
But like, if it was Nyx, she'd definitely be called Primordial. And I just don't know the difference, honestly. I'll dig into that later. But the narrative of Odin and his brothers killing this dude just came from somewhere else. I'm not saying Snorri invented it. I am just saying someone else added that part. We could have just had, this was a circle of life thing, but murder is there.
It could just be like a regional thing like a Norse decided to use primeval and Greek was primordial. Because like literally in the definition of primordial, primeval shows up. They like mean the same thing.
So one thing I want to mention, so I want to just reference a little bit the Grimnir saying passage again, because I kind of skimmed over it, but there's actually a line in that stanza that I want to talk about is how, from Ymir's flesh, the earth was made. From his blood, the sea, mountains from his bones, trees from his hair, and from his skull, the sky. And in the next stanza, from his eyelashes, the cheerful gods made Midgar for men's sons.
And from his brain, the hard tempered clouds were all created. so the, the recurring motif of like Ymir's flesh made the earth gives us the idea of the world. But then they specifically know how his eyebrows became Midgard specifically, which kind of ties into a thing we talked about during the Yidur's Sil episode, how the notion of the realms as separate places.
is a more modern interpretation and not necessarily the way these Nordic people would have envisioned their cosmology when it was a living tradition. Because if you have the Earth, Midgard would not be distinct from that. And it's not. say the Earth and Midgard is a part of that. And so all these realms are kind of interconnected in a more tangible way on Ymir rather than the Mir just created Midgard and then
Darien (38:27.466)
other things created the other realms. idea is like, no, this body created all of the realms. At least that's how I'm interpreting the stanzas.
Yeah.
DJ (38:37.358)
There's a good chance that that is how it is supposed to...
And that ties a little bit more into, that's a perfect transition, a little bit more into the idea of Midgard. Now I talked a lot about this, but I felt like I've talked a lot and I want to take a sip of my water, so I'm gonna pitch it to y'all. What's with Midgard?
it's our place to be honest where we live specifically here in the united states that might be considered another realm too if we're taking this take on the realms right if midgard could very well be just scandinavia and like way far north is
It is indeed our place.
DJ (39:18.1)
niflheim and a little further south is muspelheim stuff like that we could very well be in a realm of our own and midgard is just that scandinavian region
Yes, but the World Tree is in Boston, so, you know, that's what we have to do.
It's definitely, I always find it kind of a little bit interesting that there wasn't seemingly anything specifically special made about Midgard, but then also at the same time was because so many things could pass through into it. It kind of seemed like a... I'm trying not to get confused with Marvel.
We will talk about that later. Don't you worry, Fran. There's time on the syllabus.
But I did always find it interesting that Midgard for some reason was the place that everyone kind of almost needed to go to to be able to travel to the other realms because the ducks were the other realms and you had to be on the ducks to go to a different realm.
Darien (40:21.89)
I'm so mad that I forgot about the duck thing.
It's not entirely true because we know they got to Niflheim through the Scandinavian region.
you are correct, yes. I forgot about it. It's been a while since I read them. Bye bye.
You just have to, like the ducks are an easy way to transport to the world tree on the right path to get to the realm that you want to do, but they're not the only way to do it.
Yeah, that's true. Though wasn't it there was like, it was basically everywhere kind of led to Midgard to lead to other places or am I getting that wrong? I don't know, it- I-
Darien (40:57.422)
Do you get the vibe like all roads lead to Rome a little bit in terms of Midgard? Or maybe it's just easiest to get through for when it's in the middle. Because that's what it is. And then, the thing you mentioned about how it's like, or maybe DJ, someone mentioned how it's like the most ordinary place. That was fair. That's exactly it. That's the thing about Midgard that I think when we view it in the cosmology of the Norse, like these stories.
That's the thing that I think almost gets glossed over, is something that is the... the whole damn point of Medgard, right? Okay, so we know it's the... the middle of things, right? Like, we know it's like, since it's formed on... Like, how... Listen, I said all the realms are made from Ymir, but we know that's not true, because Misfalheim and Niflheim came first.
According to Snorri, but that's not actually cited in the other things. So it's we're all over the place here, but the other realms are made of them. So we know Midgard between Mosfahim and Niflheim. So between these two extremes, the crazy, crazy hot, the stupid fuck off cold. Like it's between that. We also know it is below Asgard and above Helheim. Like that's we have the like, you know, the celestial realm and we know that true. Another thing about it is that it is
Essentially, what I can understand while trying to like physically, like mentally comprehend this is that Jotunheim surrounds Midgard. Essentially, Jotunheim is the almost the wilds of it. Like there is the, the waters that surrounds all of Midgard where we'll see Jormungandr, we'll circle back to him in a second, but everything else.
is around Midgard. is truly in the middle of all things. I'm getting into some etymology. Like, middle is- yeah, that's direct where we get that word from. That's what it means. It kind of would roughly translate to middle yard. Like the idea of the gods building an enclosure for the sons of men to be safe in. Like, Midgard is boring.
Darien (43:13.268)
It is this idea of what the Nordic people would have called civilization. And everything else is Jotunheim and Musfelheim and Helheim and Niflheim and Asgard and Elfheim and these wild, inhuman places where their laws don't govern. It's everything else. And Midgard is where there is structure, where there is order.
Darien (43:39.33)
And then also it's just staying on it, jumping back to the etymology train just for a second, cause I do want to acknowledge it. Yes, the word middle earth literally does come from Midgard. comes from a middle English literary translation that directly translates in itself to middle earth. So once again, JRO talking really fucking love North mythology gang. I cannot, cannot say this enough. It's all just this. It's all this guy and you know what?
George Smith College.
Just so, not everything, but a whole awful lot. And you know what? Good for him.
lot of details and themes but yeah
So another fun fact is that, addition to being like this place where there is like this, this like lock of civilization, this is order, this is our perceivable world. It's also the only realm protected by the gods. It's also the only realm that's like actually anchored to the gods because the Bifrost doesn't go anywhere. It just goes to Midgard. So, up to Asgard.
Darien (44:43.894)
And so it's protected by the realms or it's protected by the gods and specifically Thor. No other realm has that. And what Thor does is protects it from the monsters and the giants from the other realms, like from these other places that would threaten this piece of humanity's civilization and order, which I think is very interesting for a culture that we often just associate with being like, just barbaric and warfare and fighting. And it's like-
There is a lot of the Vikings were it means Vikings invader. They were conquerors They had this was like a culture of hey if you lived a super good life and you died in battle You get to be in battle for the rest of eternity Isn't that fucking cool like we get there is a vibe here but there's also an understanding and a desire for order and and protection in your Perceivable world and I think that's very interesting
Now, obviously, I'm not gonna mention, I'm not gonna go through the things and say every time Midgard is mentioned. That would be wild. And in fact, I'm gonna quote a mention of Midgard that's not from the Eddas. Are y'all familiar with runestones? Not the ones from the books, actual real world runestones.
Yes.
Fran, I imagine you must be. You live in that part of the world where they're kind of a thing. The kind of rune stones I'm talking about are massive. I'm talking about big fuck off stones with runes carved all over them. I'm talking about rune stone capital R. So I specifically want to tell y'all a little bit about the Fribee rune stone, also called Sol 56, found in Sodom and Land.
Darien (46:35.68)
And on this big fuck-off rock, there are runes engraved, and the rune translates as Leslie. I know Halstein and Holmstein, brothers, the most rune-skilled men in Middle-earth, place the stone and many letters in memory of Freystein their father. And so that word that translated here as Middle-earth
is Midgard or is a deviation of the word Midgard in like the Swedish language of the time, right? And that's what makes it noteworthy. And we know this stone was placed by two sons in memory of their father. And the I in question in the stones, it's believed to refer to the stone itself. Like the rune stone is telling you, dear reader, dear listener.
how it was placed by these two sons in memory of their father. And that's kind of cool. The reason I wanted to mention it here is because the use of the word, like the phrase, Midgard, being used as a memorial, like being carved into not like a grave marker, but kind of like an almost obituary or just like a memorial.
this park bench and memory of our father type thing kind of demonstrates how the idea of Midgard isn't like purely ethereal, purely cosmological. was how these people identified their living world as they existed in it, like their perceivable world. This was Midgard.
Now, uh, real quick, listener, dear listener, there's more than one of these. A ton of these runes. Yeah! The problem is, Darren, the way you said it is like, it's like the Rosetta Stone. There's like one. The way you implied it, capital R, rune, stone. That implies only one! Not sorry. only one.
Darien (48:19.482)
yes, there's a ton of them!
Darien (48:28.342)
I didn't say it was like the Rosetta Stone.
Darien (48:37.74)
meant the capital R, like the fry bee runestone, capital F, capital R, and that's what makes it distinct to the little runestones.
yeah just because i want to go take a look at a picture these i'm seeing so many hours you suspect
I see now how my the way I presented that information was confusing. Thank you for clarifying DJ
Trying to read these must have been so ridiculous. They're so curly and swirly. Look at all these. Holy moly!
Dear listener, definitely also go look up some runestone. There's some great ones. Like they're super fun. They're very intricate. They're just neat. I like them. So the thing about Midgard is in the end times, just like everything else in existence, it will be destroyed. And the first way it's going to be destroyed is by a big flood caused by Jormungandr. Who wants to tell us about Jormungandr?
DJ (49:35.084)
bastard. Big ass snake eating his own tail while wrapping around the whole world. Give us the imagery of Ouroboros.
Yeah, Fran, elaborate, or care to elaborate, not you have to elaborate. Fran, anything to add? X-Bound?
have to elaborate.
I actually don't remember anything about him except that he's a giant snake eating his tail and that symbol is used in loads of different things in media.
child of Loki destined to kill Thor.
Darien (50:12.322)
Yes. Yep. That's really the- Listen, it's a big snake eating its own tail. Yeah, that's kind of the big thing you need to remember about your M'Gondor.
when he wakes up it's like a bunch of earthquakes and tidal waves all over the place.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's very scary. Very scary. As DJ stated, Jormungandr, one of the child of Loki, along with his brother Fenris Wolf and sister Hel, and they-
Don't forget about sleep near
Half brother to sleep, Nir. I'm just talking about the triplets.
DJ (50:45.23)
I'm just saying
No, you're right. You're right. Half brother to Sleepnir. But Sleepnir got to be Odin's special horse and hang out on Asgard, whereas Jormungandr, Finnerus Wolf, and Hela were taken from Asgard and just, well, two of them, and were just thrown to Midgard or other places.
Hell, not so much, the other two, they were villains.
They're destined to be villains, so we will solve the problem by punishing them right now.
Fenrir was a problem while he was hanging around, okay?
Darien (51:17.806)
No, he was only a problem when they decided they were going to tie him off and he bit off a dude's hand. they didn't... Listen! I will not bother you until I am bothered. And then I will take it too far. Does anyone want to guess what etymologically Jormungandr means?
Exactly.
Fran (51:35.778)
Big Snake.
Exactly! Jormin is a prefix, means something vast and grand, and Gondar in Old Norse actually can refer- it's a phrase that can refer to anything that is like elongated. elongated specifically. So we have a snake, or a river, or maybe the mast of a ship, or also a penis. Any of those things.
Take a gander at my gander.
Darien (52:07.086)
I'm not gonna lie and say I didn't think that thought in my head when I was researching it, but I'm glad DJ was the one to present it. So, yes, the name can be reasonably translated to Big Fuck Off Snake. Does anyone want to guess how-
That guy's a huge dick.
She's... I did this. I brought this to the table. I knew what I was doing. Hey, how long is your Mungander?
impossibly long.
Okay, Fred?
Fran (52:42.296)
Size of the Earth?
Fran is correct! Both. It- we have the- the lore- where is my Jormungandr page?
He wraps around the earth several times, doesn't he? Or is it really just the once?
Oh, you know what DJ, that's a really good question. I think it's just the once, but I don't have a passage marked to cite it. He wraps around the world and puts his tail in the mouth. And if he's only wrapping around the world the one time, it would make him 24,900 miles long or for Fran, 40,073 kilometers long.
Don't worry, we also still use miles here, whilst also using kilometres at the same time. It's... This country's stupid.
Darien (53:25.384)
Yeah, why don't you just do the meters? It's the better one. Just do kilometers.
no, we do it in miles.
Yeah, why? If you have the metric system, why would you just not do the metric? I hate miles and inches and Fahrenheit. I love the metric system. It's better.
I- You know, if you got a three with those algorithms, you Fahrenheit is way better for weather and shit.
Interesting. DJ, what is the temperature that water freezes in Fahrenheit?
DJ (53:57.71)
You say science, Darien!
DJ (54:02.092)
Did I say science? No, I said fucking weather.
Why is it better for weather?
Because I could be like 69 is a nice fucking degree outside. What is it like 10 in Celsius? No, fuck you. I don't wanna see it's 10 degrees outside. I don't understand what that means. And granted that's what I grew up with. I understand that, but it's like, yes, 69, 80. I understand that like, yeah, the higher it gets, the hotter it's gonna feel. And once it reached a hundred, it's uncomfortably hot.
So 69 degrees, nice, in Fahrenheit is 20.5556 degrees Celsius.
That's fucking crazy. It's like, it's just, it's like the percentage of how a human is feeling this weather.
Darien (54:43.744)
It is to acknowledge it is slightly different, especially because the human body is operating at like a higher temperature than, but also.
science I'll agree with you Celsius rocks I love it in like experiments and doing shit like that but for weather Fahrenheit's the way to go it just it makes more sense in terms of like how am I gonna feel today 69 I'm gonna feel pretty nice
next.
The thing about it is... just the good weather? Yeah, just the good weather! Look, take a gander at my gander! So, the thing about... But DJ, if you say something's below freezing, that means it's just below 32 degrees Fahrenheit. Then if we say it's below freezing in Celsius, that means we're in the negatives, at zero. I think that's better for weather. The freezing! The temperature of the water freezes freezing! I understand that!
This is good weather!
DJ (55:27.296)
I understand that. No!
Fran (55:36.812)
The rest of the world disagrees with you, DJ. I'm
I don't live in the rest of the world now do I live here in the United States of America and Darien is wrong on that
So I'm gonna move on so the thing about your mengandir and this thing we talked about a lot right is the thing you mentioned specifically GJ your mengandir is Destined he's gonna unfurl he's gonna cause a lot of earthquakes a lot of flooding as he he gets loose and he is destined to kill Thor and Ragnarok Thor will arrive to defend Midgard as your mengandir is coming out from the oceans We talk about how he wraps around the earth and we view that clear the earth as a circle as a globe so we do
all the way around. But I talked earlier about how Midgard's in the center of things going outwards. And Jormungandr really could be like a fence in other like it would not be incorrect to also have a perception of him being like just a an actual barrier that kind of circle around Midgard. That's at the point I was trying to make here. That's just the thing I wanted to say before I got too far away from the point because I got distracted by Fahrenheit and Celsius. The thing about now now god damn it now I gotta leave it in the episode. The thing about
That's on you.
Darien (56:41.814)
So the thing about Jormungandr, we've talked a lot about the Thor of it all fighting. They will fight to the death. He will slay Jormungandr first, but after nine steps, there it is again, Thor will fall dead from the poison of Jormungandr, right? Super fun, interesting fact. John Lindow, who is an American professor just about Norse mythology, we've mentioned him a couple of times. He has identified the like bound monster trope connecting
Fenris Wolf and Jormungandr at Ragnarok, how both of these are monsters, enemy of the gods who are bound and when they become free, that is when the world will end. And this trope also extends to Loki himself. And that's just a fun fact. So that's all of our Ragnarok stuff. But the end of days is not the first time that Thor and the big fuck off snake will have tangled.
Either of you. What?
putting him in the road.
putting your wing under the ocean.
Darien (57:47.702)
I love that. Fran, do you want to take a guess?
What like when it happens or yeah
They technically, so specifically twice, Thor and Yorumangowner tangle twice before Ragnar.
Joe McGunder accidentally eats a Bjolnir.
Fran (58:06.574)
I was gonna say Thor decides that Yhormaga has been sucking his tail too long and he needs to get past the pacifier.
Aww.
gonna get an overbite. You need it like stop.
Got it! Orthodontia is going be so expensive to correct that.
Yeah. You gotta weed him off. Yeah! No, no, no, I'm gonna go in aggressive.
Darien (58:29.709)
I'm sorry.
No, you're not supposed to eat your tail, that's bad for you. Take some hand sanitizer and start sliding.
DJ, we had a cat growing up who was a black and white cat, but the tip of his tail is brown because he's Tomcat and he would just sit there and suck and he was this big old big Tomcat, but he would sit on our dad's chest and just suck the tip of his tail. So was brown. Okay, you're both wrong, but I really love the enthusiasm. Thank you so much for playing this game with me. So the first time...
So both times are actually outlined not in the poetic edda, but in the prose edda in Sonora's Gilfenigining, where he has several chapters about how badass Thor is, and we are gonna get to those. But I'm gonna highlight the Jormungandr ones right now to clear up space for the future Thor episode. So, and I'm not gonna read some passages, I'm just gonna like give you a spark notes version, because these are a little long. Once upon a time, Thor was hanging out at Uhtard Loki's hall, and he was challenged, hey, you think you're so big and tough?
Why don't you go pick up that big gray cat over there that just walked in the room? And Thor's like, yeah, I can pick up a cat. But despite his great strength, Thor could not, in fact, lift this cat. The best he could do, lifting up, if you try to pick up a cat and you go from the belly and they just like, kind of arch their spine a little bit, the best he could do was get one paw, just one paw off the ground. But he just simply could not lift this cat. Now, the next day.
Darien (59:57.302)
The next day, the giant revealed that the whole thing was an illusion. That he had just made, and this was a series of illusions where Thor was like, it is that scene from the Hammer of Thor book where they are just having to like play these games with the frost giants and like, we've got hearth being a pinball wizard, that scene. So.
great scene.
now there's one, one line I want to quote from that. So after Thor finds out he's been, he's been had, he's been duped. And honestly, like, Yuzo Loki is like, actually the fact that you were able to pick up one paw of Jormungandr, like that was really impressive. You should be, you should be proud. That was really well done. but that's not good enough for Thor. In truth, it can be said that from then on, he was determined to find a way to confront the Midgard serpent.
And later on that happened. you might think, that's referring to Taragnorok when he'll die. Nope! No, he went out and found this big fuck off snake. Cause here's story number two, Thor's fishing trip. So Thor goes fishing with the giant Timur. Except he's decided to take a page from Odin's book. And so Thor has disguised himself as a young boy. And I don't know why.
It's not important to this story. Don't worry about it. Except Himir is like, one doesn't think this kid's going to be useful. And for that reason, lets him row out there, but does not give Thor any bait because he's like, am going to waste bait on this kid? So he has to go find his own bait. So Thor goes over to Himir's oxen and just breaks off one of their heads to use as bait. You will recall this is the story that Magnus and Sam had to recreate in...
Darien (01:01:48.032)
sort of summer when they were trying to get that that water goddesses the net goddesses attention yeah so got the ox's head he rose out into very he being thor rose out into dangerous waters and him here is like hey man like this is we're getting kind of dangerous like you got to start washing out for your mongonder and thor is like good that's literally the plan so now i will do a little light reading
the plant.
Darien (01:02:17.282)
So he basically he baits the hook with the ox's head, throws it in, casts it overboard, sinks to the bottom. It can be said in truth that this time Thor tricked the Midgar serpent no less than Uhtard Loki had tricked Thor into lifting the Midgar serpent with his arm. He literally baits it and is reeling the serpent up onto the ship. It can be said that no one has seen a more terrifying sight than this.
Thor narrowing his eyes at the serpent, while the serpent spits out poison and stares straight back from below. And Chimera is not having fun. He is not having a good time. This is not the way he thought his day was going to go. And then finally, Thor grabbed the hammer and raised it into the hair. The giant fumbling with the bait knife, cut Thor's line where it lay across the edge of the boat and the serpent sank back into the sea.
but Thor threw his hammer after it and people say that down on the bottom he struck the serpent's head off. But I think the opposite is true. The Midgard serpent still lives and lies in the surrounding sea. So the giant cuts the serpent loose before Thor can actually fight him there and Thor is pretty pissed. So he like backhands this dude off his ship and then just walks back to land. And as we know,
high, just as high or third, whoever speaking is correct, Thor did not slay the Midgard Serpent in this moment. They will meet a third time at Ragnarok. But those are the highlight reel of Thor deciding he really wanted to fight the big fuck-off snake, because one time a giant kind of embarrassed him.
This seems very Thor.
Darien (01:04:03.746)
Very, very Thor. Okay, DJ, did you want to tell us a little bit about Ymir and Smikes? We've gotten to our pop culture happy hour. I can't say that, that's another podcast. We've gotten to our pop culture segments.
Absolutely so smite. He's a guardian in smite one and smite two. That's no longer a thing. He is annoying He has a he has like a three second DJ All of them fucking all of them are annoying the only one that's not is arguably faffing and even then you know Can be he's got like a three second stun a lot like a pretty decent amount of damage a wall That wall is so annoying
What character in Smite isn't annoying?
Darien (01:04:40.078)
Okay?
Anyway, his lore. And he's one of like the original gods, so it's not quite as tied into his smite as some of the newer ones.
At the beginning of time, the realm of fire, Muspel, and the realm of ice, Niflheim, met at the place called Geningegap, the void of space. Steam rose and froze again, and from the primordial mixture, Ymir, king of the frost giants, took shape. From his body dripped other beings that would become the ancestors of gods, men, dwarves, and of course, giants. Even the mighty Odin must claim Ymir as his grandfather.
Yet Amir, like all giants, was an evil creature, and led his giant brethren against the gods. After ages of warfare, Odin and his brothers slew the giant king, and forged the world from his remains. Yet there are other whispers, rumors, that Amir, though not a god, was a primeval being, and such cannot true. Perhaps he only lies dormant in Niflheim, the realm of ice, egos your return, and wreak vengeance upon Odin and his kin.
Primeval!
Darien (01:06:06.818)
I like that.
lot of fun. He's got the Cacodemon skins which are beta skins that you can only get in the betas that Smite has done. Which means the PC beta back in 2012. The Xbox and PS4 beta and they're green, blue, and I think the original is red respectively.
nice.
He has one skin that I like a lot called nuclear winter where it's just his base skin, but he's glowing green and like pulsing. And when he starts to do his old, like a meltdown alarm goes off like the dirt. I love it. I think it's so much fun.
I do not lie.
Darien (01:06:54.094)
Okay, I just looked up in here. What a crazy looking motherfucker, wow.
He had a different design like a while ago. They made it look a lot better.
talk about God of War. I lied. I will never talk about God of War again. I don't know enough about God of War. I know Jormungandr is in God of War. That's all I know about that. Now I'm not going to try to learn more about it, about things I haven't played. And the reason I'm not going to is because I got that Freya Frey thing, a Frigga Frey thing super wrong.
Why?
Well, dear friend, the host of Through the Mist reached out about a week ago to let us know that they just finished all the Freya episode and how apparently, if memory serves, that's a twist in the game. it's it's not Frigg? Yeah, that it's, because I pointed out how it's Freya's Baldur's mother, and it's not, it's Frigg, listen to the episode you're listening you know what that was about, but it's Freya.
Darien (01:08:01.678)
And apparently, that's a twist. That they're actually looking for Frigga, and then they find out, wait, that's actually been Freya. And they have to work out that the fact that they've been actually, that's the same person, that they've been talking to Freya looking for Frig, and later on they realize, no, we were had, hoodwinked, bamboozled! And I was like, damn, that's really cool. I don't know how I missed that reading the wikis, so I'm not gonna talk about God of War anymore. I would just acknowledge that you're my god, definitely in these God of War games.
I don't know enough about it to elaborate, but you know what I know a lot about? DuckTales 2017. now I get to talk about DuckTales 2017 again. Y'all, y'all, we did a whole bonus episode about Rumble for Ragnarok on Patreon. You should go check that out if you haven't yet. It's super fun. It's got our dear friend, Tim O'Connor from the Stand By Line podcast. He is there. It's a great episode.
And essentially, no, he's not on that episode. He was on our Ithaca episode, because I wanted to talk about Ithaca. We've been doing this podcast for too long.
them for very long time.
so in DuckTales, is about the McDuck family. You know, the ducks. You've seen the ducks. Donald and his nephew, Scrooge McDuck, the richest duck in the world. And we find out that Scrooge is the protector of Earth. And every X amount of years, he has to go to Valhalla and fight Jormungandr to keep Ragnarok from happening. It's a full on wrestling match. And you must be asking.
Darien (01:09:37.645)
Is this Scottish anthropomorphic duck man going to fight the world serpent who can literally wrap around the earth who knows how many amount of times we're not sure whether it's once or multiple who is at least 2,000 24,900 miles long and the answer that is well He just becomes a snake man with like arms and legs and then they just rattle And it's great and you know what I'm happy I got to talk about duck tales again because we got an email recently from a listener
out.
Darien (01:10:08.202)
from their listener Quinn who was just and the subject line was best boy Storkules and it was just Quinn saying how they liked the show. Quinn, thank you so much for listening and also how we inspired her to watch DuckTales and how she agrees Storkules is best boy
killies is great. Big granite store killies.
So Quinn, know you are just, I mentioned how you're gonna catch up in a few months. So I hope when you hear this a year from now, you know we appreciated that email. It made me really happy. I did immediately send it to Tim O'Connor so he could know the good work he's done in this world.
So, that's what I've got from Yermangonder. DJs, Yermangonder and Smites!
Armageddon! Apocalypse. The end of times. All myths and legends contain four warnings of a great singular catastrophe when the stars fall from the sky and the very earth breaks into nothingness. Among these days of judgment, none are eclipsed in scale of horror and destruction foretold more than Ragnarok, the prophesized disaster of the Norse pantheon. There is a single being who acts as the herald of Ragnarok, the god known as Jormungandr. The World Serpents.
DJ (01:11:19.392)
A son of Loki, is an immense serpent-dragon, massive enough to encircle the entire world and blot out the light from the sun. Dark omens were whispered of when the world serpent will rise, casting his nauseous poisons out to engulf the whole of the earth. The time Jormungandr bestrides the earth is one of unmatched calamity, the days of Ragnarok where the oceans boil and the land quakes.
There are days of incredible violence where both mortal and divine blood shall soak the ground and the world serpent will mete out destruction with a fanatic seal. He will swim through the earth and seas alike with vast snapping jaws and caustic venom sweeping away any opponent brave enough to stand against him. One such champion is Thor, the mighty god of thunder.
Long has his destiny been written that he will confront the World Serpent in the nightmarish days of Ragnarok. It is a clash that will shake creation, rivaling any battle in history and one that neither Thor nor Jormungandr may ever walk away from. Woe to any who hears the trumpets of Ragnarok, for they herald the coming of Jormungandr and the instrument of their annihilation. The Serpent exists as a bearer of the End Times, the collapse of all creation.
Who could hope to oppose such power?
Listen, technically Thor- He has a goose skin?
DJ (01:12:45.964)
It's really fun.
It's called Goose Chase?
And honestly, it's one of the better skins in the game. But I don't know if it'll be your favorite skin from his. He does have another one called World Kid.
Hey, y'all.
Darien (01:13:03.469)
Alright, my god, he's just an angry goose just a bit
There's dedicated honk button?
I saw the cat. I saw the long boy cat. right.
sub is also a really good skin big fan of like the Jormungandr skin potential is so big
It's just a long-gated dude!
DJ (01:13:25.974)
Yeah, it's funny because when he uses his ult, the ult quote unquote he goes to his original size, but it's not even the biggest you'll see him in the game because you can see him in the assault map and he's way fucking bigger as a background item than has his ulting.
Hey friend, do you have any examples of Ymir or Jormungandr in pop culture? We don't want to edge you out here.
I don't know any cases that I've experienced them, but I thought just because we found the word primeval that I would add to the conversation of it because there is a British TV show called Primeval which was to do with dinosaurs and porcelain from the Jurassic and Cretaceous period where dinosaurs slipped through into modern day Britain.
and it was scientific teams who had to find ways to close these portals whilst also getting the dinosaur back into it to send them back to their time period.
Was this show well received? Was this a good show?
Fran (01:14:31.918)
Like 8th, it was a really good show. went on for like 6 or 7 seasons. It also made it, they had a one season in the US at one point, did not go well.
I was gonna say, I think I remember sci-fi being like primeval and I'm like, mmm, I don't think that's gonna last. And clearly, the United States Americans did not care for that.
No. But yeah, no, it was very, popular. Do you guys know the group from like the 2000s, S Club 7? Okay.
I do not. DJ?
I don't.
Fran (01:15:05.72)
Okay, no, for some reason I thought they may have made it to the US. were probably-
I did, but like...
They were basically a coed Spice Girls sort of situation. What's another group? Or five? Oh no, so one of the members from it was part of the coed. Oh, she was the girl in... Did you guys watch Agent Cody Banks 2?
Did they do the theme song?
Darien (01:15:24.622)
cool.
Darien (01:15:31.724)
Yes.
really long time.
She is the British love interest to Cody Banks. So she's from S Club 7.
I do remember her.
Good for her! Well, friend, do you want- I've got only one for Midgard, and unless DJ's got something else, I was gonna offer it to you, friend, so you could do some talking and say some more words in this episode. Do you wanna talk a little about Midgard from the Thor comic in movies?
Fran (01:15:57.646)
yes. Okay, if I don't come up with what you wanted to say then you can say it as well. But yeah, so Midgard is... I don't know which Earth it is that Thor goes to because there are now multiple Earths in the multiverse.
Earth 616 is the primary Marvel universe where most of the canon takes place, unless otherwise stated.
I thought the MCU was a different one.
It is a
This is immediately recognizable.
Fran (01:16:52.106)
Yeah. But yeah, so we have Thor's movie from the early 2000s, 2010s, and he is banished to Midgard with Miu Miu as a- Miu Miu! Because I can't say the name of it.
That's fine, I love it!
and is stripped of his powers and basically made to be in a sense a normal mortal-ish whilst also still being know Chris Hemsworth.
Yes.
having to survive and live in Midgard and being trapped there because in what I'm assuming is that version of like the Midgard presentation is that there quite literally is no other way to get anywhere else because the Bifrost is the thing that connects to every realm which is different to the mythology as well which like Dari mentioned earlier is the Bifrost is only connected to Asgard and Midgard whereas as we see in the Thor films the Bifrost is connected to everyone
Fran (01:17:57.328)
basically. Yeah. Portals. But Thor is sent there, he is trapped there, and there is no way for him to return until he proves himself worthy of Mew Mew. The Mew Mew! And it's basically just kind of...
Yeah, it's like a portal system. Portals!
Fran (01:18:19.368)
our world but with superheroes. the gods don't really have any involvement with Midgard in this version of Marvel as well. They're kind of there and they know of it and they kind of go to Midgard every so often but they have no control or power of it and they don't really protect it until Thor finds the people that he really likes and is like okay now I should probably protect Midgard now.
Yeah.
Darien (01:18:48.054)
Yeah. Because they're pretty- yes, yeah, because there are pretty people. It is interesting how is suggested stated implied that during the time of the Nordic people, the Asgardian gods were coming to Midgard pretty frequently. And like rumbling with the ice giants and stuff that that happened pretty often. But that has kind of faded out for x, y, reasons that are kind of un-
Because there are pretty people.
Darien (01:19:15.118)
Maybe it's super clear in the Marvel comics. I've read, listen, I've read Loki, agent of Asgard, Dirty and a Mystery Loki run, Young Avengers run with Loki in it. And then I read The Mighty Thor with Jane Foster. That's my Thor comics, guys. If it's not in those, I don't know it. So I'm spit balling here. Don't come at me. I don't care that much. If Loki's not there and Jane's not there, I don't care. But for whatever reason, they're not rolling around anymore until as Fred said,
Thor decided to come back up and actually protect Midgard. But it is interesting because it's like, is this one... Because Midgard in this one is the planet Earth. And the other, this one is like, explicitly the realms are just other planets that are interconnected in like, the Asgardian Empire? Because there are like a ton of other planets that we encounter in like the Guardians of the Galaxy movies and stuff as the Marvels have, the universe has become more like space epic-y.
that are not part of the nine realms. It's just these nine planets that are under the control of Asgard. that's the like empire undertones is something that like Thor, Ragnarok tried to play with, but didn't really get too deep into and you know, whatever. We did other things in that movie. We just took a World War Hulk plot and did that there. It's fine. I actually really liked Thor Ragnarok, but it...
So it's interesting, because it's like, is Earth and the other planets all know about each other? Like everyone else is traveling back and forth to Asgard and doing things and having hyper advanced technology and magic. And then there's just Earth. And it's like, why is it Earth and not the planet where the Kree are from or like the Nova or something like that. And like, I don't know if there's a Kanata Glancer, but I saw a Tumblr post years ago that really stuck with me. And it's the fact that Earth
is as we know, as far as we know, the only planet where you can be bitten by a rate of active spider, exposed to like celestial cosmological infinity stone magic, or just have a mutant gene and suddenly have superpowers. And that shit just doesn't happen on other planets. And so Odin clocked that and thought, hey, that's weird. We should watch this one.
Darien (01:21:40.288)
and just keep an eye on it. Humans are weird and we need to keep an eye on them so they don't run amok. And that's always been my headcanon reason.
I like that reason.
Most aliens that went down to fuck with earth got fucked with right back Whoa, maybe we really shouldn't be talking with this place. Whoa. Whoa
Yeah, they're like, we're done.
Darien (01:22:03.502)
Whoa! Yeah, we have alien races. None of them have mutants or super- they're superheroes, they're all super powered or they have, everyone has like this space tech. Like no one has just these one off like Ms. Marvel, Spider-Man, Hulk's, like that doesn't happen anywhere else. So, and then Midgard is obviously like a term that like pops up a lot. It's like in Final Fantasy VII, the place that they're at a
It's just in Final Fantasy, it's like Midgard. And that's more of just the name of location, and I don't wanna get into that. This episode's long enough and I'm not interested in that. I just wanted to let Fran talk about Thor a little bit, because that seemed fun for me.
I can also reference one other thing. It's made up, but it's referencing realms and also because you mentioned Tolkien previously. don't know if this, I'm assuming this may have been true to his real life, but in the film Tolkien, which is the biopic to do with Tolkien himself, specifically what led to him writing The Hobbit, him and his friends whenever they wanted to do something daring. And again, this
could be something that made for the film, didn't fully check this, but it seems like it was probably accurate considering how much he loved Norse mythology. We'll say Helheimer as a way to kind of like bolster themselves to do something.
out of the ordinary. Because also they all then went off to war in different parts as well and unfortunately they did lose two of their friends there. there four of them, two of them sadly passed away, killed in the war. But it was a thing that they did and continued to say and then Osiyin's boyard inspired the Hobbit afterwards as well based on his experiences there. But Helheimr was
Fran (01:23:59.585)
big thing that they used to say as a group.
That's very aww, I didn't know that. Thanks for sharing that, friend!
Yeah, and for anyone who may be a big follower, that's inaccurate, I'm very sorry.
Yeah, you guys send us an email. Let us know. Go yell at Fran. Go yell at Fran on their Instagram, whatever.
Go yell at me on Twitter, I'll show you my wonderful breakfast.
Darien (01:24:21.014)
Yes, go follow- yeah, go- if you're mad, yell at DJ Ott, the muse is on Twitter, and he's gonna share pictures of eggs benny's with you. And it'll just make you feel better. Fran, another thing you should share, I think, is a little bit more about your book, The Spiral of Life, that's gonna come out September 22nd!
Yeah, I'm very happy to do that. yeah, The Spiral of Life is the first book in this brand new series of mine called Eileen in the Otherworld, which is basically sort of Percy Jackson meets BBC's Merlin for anyone who may have seen it. And as Doreen has read the story previously... I was in the...
Yessss, YESSSS
Darien (01:24:59.374)
I read the whole thing in one night I was like I gotta read this for Fran and get her feedback and get them feedback back and then I just Read the whole goddamn thing just straight. I had not read anything start to finish in so long It was it went down so smooth gang. Sorry Fran continue
No, no, no, that's a very good selling point. Yay! But Deryn will be aware of how often people see Marlin referenced in the book. Yes. And in fact, since they beta-read, it's referenced more. I gotta hear it, I gotta hear it.
I gotta go. I'm so excited to have the real copy. I'm gonna have it on my shelf. It'll be great
But yeah, so the story in the Spinal of Life is the first in the series. It is part of an expanded universe as well, so speaking of Marvel, it's very sort of Rick Rollins presents meets Marvel of there are different pantheons, but they are all part of the same world and there will be sort of overlapping storylines, crossovers and all that sort of stuff within this book series with mine and others. there's T.G. and the Rishuts by Anton Bandolais. know it's very, very exciting and various different... there's also going to be a Norse mythology.
series coming out as well various different folklore mythologies are covered as well there's a polish there is yeah we've got yeah you're definitely a lot of the polish one darian when that comes out because it's got baba yaga reference
Darien (01:26:21.823)
that's gonna be so good, yeah!
Darien (01:26:29.998)
I do love me a Baba Yaga. Yes, that's true. yours in particular, Fran, give us your elevator pitch. You've talked a lot about the vibes, but like, who's Eileen? What's her deal? Why is she a complicated female character that people are gonna complain about not getting more complicated female characters and then you'll point and be like, you couldn't even handle her.
You
Yes, so Eileen is definitely the definition of complicated. She is from Barlok in Scotland, which is near Loch Lomond for anyone who may have heard of that from the song. And she had to leave her home for a good period of time due to something that happened in her past. But her mamaw, who is her grandmother, has gotten sick, so she has to return home. And basically, things just blow up from there for her.
life. Real quick, and she is just not having a good time. She gets drowned, she meets a god, and the god says, hey, 17 year old child, wanna help us save the world? And yeah, her life was already complicated, and now she has to deal with a missing god on a deadline.
Real quick!
Darien (01:27:44.574)
On a deadline! We love a deadline.
headline and yeah she's she's got issues she doesn't want to deal with them and she may have to on this journey with a sarcastic kelpie and a druid companion who may or may not be a future love interest no it's gay that's also that's a
It's important. very,
Gay. Which I feel is the biggest elevator pitch. It's gay and it's Percy Jackson-esque.
Yep. we love that. And dear listener, if that sounds like a book, you're like, that sounds fun. I think I would enjoy that. Then you should go preorder it. If you're listening to it before September 22nd, 2024, like go preorder the book. There will be a link in the show notes for you to do so. I know you're like, I could just buy it. And that's great too. But here's a fun fact about books is that preorder matters so much, like weirdly a lot. And that's a thing that I think even like dedicated readers don't necessarily realize is how much
Darien (01:28:49.336)
Pre-order matters to a success of the book So if you think that sounds super fun, and I know friends should be pushing this But I'm gonna do it cuz I was one that's like no friend We'll definitely get you here before your book comes out so we can drive some pre-orders. Come on gang Make it happen. Just stop in the link period of the book. It's like getting a present for your future self
And isn't that- doesn't the future you deserve a book to read and it just shows up at your door? You don't have to go out and track it down. You already did the hard work. It'll just come to you. I think you deserve that, dear listener.
And additional to that, depending on what form you prefer to read, whether it's ebook, hard copy or audiobook, all three versions are available. Paperback's won't be coming out until next year, but we do have the hard copy as well. But yes, ebooks, audiobooks and hard copies are available for the pre-orders and paperback at some point in the future if you prefer paperback.
Reading flavors for every reading preference. That's what more could you want?
Exactly and for anyone who may be in the UK specifically London area I will be at MCM Comic Con London this October hopefully with Eileen books if the delivery gets on time
Darien (01:30:05.529)
That's awesome
So I will be at a table. So if you want to come say hi, get a copy for me directly and support me more directly because sales in person are usually better in general anyway. I'll see, online sales are better, but like I don't have to split with.
Yes, so you In terms of financial support, it's better if you buy directly from the author.
Yes, and you also get signed copy for free. I will sign them for free. I will leave messages as well. And if you don't want a message, I'll just put my name. And if you don't want it signed, that's also fine. I completely understand. I am currently not that big. So...
The current release so you want to copy now before you have to pay money to get the signed copies as is inevitable I was at boys a comic arts fest I bought a comic book and I love buying comics from indie comics at boys a comic arts. It's super fun and Everyone Kelsey also brought the same comic and I hadn't realized it and so she's like I got it too and she flipped it open and was showing me and I'm like They signed yours. They they didn't sign mine and she's like, oh well I asked them to sign it and I was like, oh, I forgot to ask I forgot that you could just ask
Fran (01:31:13.26)
Yeah, very much. If anyone is there and sees me at MCM, I'll be in the writer's blog. I don't know where that's gonna be right now.
Go follow Fran on Instagram, the post all about it.
yes, at a dose of Fran, but I'm assuming it may be...
The description. will also be in the show notes. I love my links in the show notes. Okay, I think, ugh, big, big Midgard episode, big middle of the world, middle of all of existence. Everything orbits around us and currently everything orbits around Fran and their books. Coming out soon. Go pre-order it. Go enjoy it. I told you, I read the whole thing. Start to finish in one sitting. It was great. You will love it. I promise. And if you don't love it, go yell at DJ on Twitter and he'll show you pictures of his breakfast.
Also, you're welcome to leave a review if you don't. Reviews are super important, whether good or bad, because that shows that my book is worth promoting on other forums, even if you give me a one star. One star, two star, three star, four star, five star, always good. But reviews are the main way to get noticed. Unfortunately, the algorithm is a bitch.
Darien (01:32:15.79)
That's that statement applies only to Fran and their books if you want to leave us a one-star review on this free podcast You just listened to why don't you just good stead go yell at DJ on Twitter? And they'll send you pictures of his breakfast. This was But that only applies to the friends books the watch you paid for this is a free podcast You could have stopped listening at any time. I don't want your one-star review. It's not helpful to me. I don't care
We'll see.
I'll see you.
Fran (01:32:42.22)
That's
Well, friend, thank you so much for joining us. was thank you for being up until 3 a.m. in the goddamn morning to be on the show. It's been a blast. We could take a little nippity nap before you get back to working on the last parts of the book you gotta get done.
yeah, I would. Unfortunately, I need to do this. I Alright. can power through. I've had caffeine. It's okay.
Okay, all right, you're gonna go right in.
Darien (01:33:08.814)
Dear listeners, thank you so much for joining us. We will be back in your ears on Tuesday, September 24th to talk about Jotunheim for real this time. I promise. And until then, don't be like Zeus.
Don't be like this.
DJ (01:33:32.416)
O'Connor. The Crystal Con Man. Nicholas Miller. Our music is Athens Festival by Martin Haim and our cover art is by Audrey Miller. You can find her on Instagram at Bombshell Nutshell Art.
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